Government Spying on Millions (Verizon)

[Irish Houstonian]

and you truly believe the government is the bad guy? Seriously?

I can see the debate on whether the government is doing the right or wrong thing when it comes to all this monitoring, but to insinuate that the government is in someway conspiring against its citizens is absolutely ridiculous.

You tend to read a lot of insinuation in things BobD. So I'll type slowly. Every gov't does good things, and every gov't does bad things. Even when it's under Obama.

When it does do bad things, sometimes you need good people on the inside to stop it. Those people will still technically be "traitors". But, by definition, they're also the good guys because they're stopping bad things from happening.

We can argue all day about whether the current spying program is a good thing or a bad thing, but in general what I just wrote above really shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

The idea here is that people keep deploying the epithet "traitor" as some sort of indictment when in fact the status of "traitor" is morally hollow -- it totally depends on what gov't you're "betraying".

 

[BobD]

You tend to read a lot of insinuation in things BobD. So I'll type slowly. Every gov't does good things, and every gov't does bad things. Even when it's under Obama.

When it does do bad things, sometimes you need good people on the inside to stop it. Those people will still technically be "traitors". But, by definition, they're also the good guys because they're stopping bad things from happening.

We can argue all day about whether the current spying program is a good thing or a bad thing, but in general what I just wrote above really shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

The idea here is that people keep deploying the epithet "traitor" as some sort of indictment when in fact the status of "traitor" is morally hollow -- it totally depends on what gov't you're "betraying".

No need to speak slowly, just don't talk out your arse, so you have to back track to explain yourself from behind brain fart statements. Like this "every government does good things and every government does bad things", that's simply false, unless that is, you know of some great feat Hitler accomplished or maybe the dictators in North Korea? Need more examples?
Don't speak slowly unless of course, it comes natural to you. Just TRY to be right.

Now we both got our digs in, let's get back to a respectful debate.

 

[Buster Bluth]

No need to speak slowly, just don't talk out your arse, so you have to back track to explain yourself from behind brain fart statements. Like this "every government does good things and every government does bad things", that's simply false, unless that is, you know of some great feat Hitler accomplished or maybe the dictators in North Korea? Need more examples?

6 Good Things Hitler Did? | Grant J. Kidney, at War with the Establishment!

 

[BobD]

^Oh brother! Let's not get any further into this.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

AmCon's intelligence expert just published an article titled "Edward Snowden is No Traitor":

It was clear to me that in 2007 Washington already possessed the technical capability to greatly increase its interception of communications networks, but I was wrong in my belief that the government had actually been somewhat restrained by legal and privacy concerns. Operating widely in a permissive extralegal environment had already started six years before, shortly after 9/11, under the auspices of the Patriot Act and the Authorization for Use of Military Force.

The White House’s colossal data mining operation has now been exposed by Edward Snowden, and the American people have discovered that they have been scrutinized by Washington far beyond any level that they would have imagined possible. Many foreign nations have also now realized that the scope of U.S. spying exceeds any reasonable standard of behavior, so much so that if there are any bombshells remaining in the documents taken by Snowden they would most likely relate to the specific targets of overseas espionage.

Here in the United States, it remains to be seen whether anyone actually cares enough to do something about the illegal activity while being bombarded with the false claims that the out of control surveillance program “has kept us safe.” It is interesting to observe in passing that the revelations derived from Snowden’s whistleblowing strongly suggest that the hippies and other counter-culture types who, back in the 1960s, protested that the government could not be trusted actually had it right all along.

 

[phgreek]

AmCon's intelligence expert just published an article titled "Edward Snowden is No Traitor":

"It is interesting to observe in passing that the revelations derived from Snowden’s whistleblowing strongly suggest that the hippies and other counter-culture types who, back in the 1960s, protested that the government could not be trusted actually had it right all along. "


well ...and ironic since some of them (Hippies) are ... well... the problem they saw coming...

 

[Ndaccountant]

Yahoo!

 

[phgreek]

Yahoo!

technology is really cool when used under the guise of ...I don't know...the law.

...this is so big brotherish, so brazenly Orwelian its telling about the attitudes behind it...

 

[BobD]

Michael Hayden former head of the NSA:
"The appropriate balance between liberty and security has bedeviled free peoples, including Americans, for centuries. But it takes a special kind of arrogance for this young man to believe that his moral judgment on the dilemma suddenly trumps that of two (incredibly different) presidents, both houses of the U.S. Congress, both political parties, the U.S. court system and more than 30,000 of his co-workers."

 

[dshans]

"...it takes a special kind of arrogance for this young man to believe that his moral judgment on the dilemma suddenly trumps that of two (incredibly different) presidents, both houses of the U.S. Congress, both political parties, the U.S. court system and more than 30,000 of his co-workers."

Lemmings to the sea (a fallacy in reality)? Mom – "If all your friends do/did it, would/should you do it too?"

History is littered with arrogance. The key, the thumbs up or thumbs down, is all too often judged through the filtered lenses of the victor.

 

[MJ12666]

Lemmings to the sea (a fallacy in reality)? Mom – "If all your friends do/did it, would/should you do it too?"

History is littered with arrogance. The key, the thumbs up or thumbs down, is all too often judged through the filtered lenses of the victor.

Cute prose but they simply obfuscate the fact that you cannot compose a coherent rebuttal. What Snowden did was break the law and if his motives were as "pure" as his defenders would like us to believe than he would have stayed in the US to have his day in court (assuming he was charged and prosecuted).

Additionally, exactly what in Snowden's background or the things he has said gives you the confidence that he has the maturity and judgement to decide what is best for the citizens of this country?

 

[dshans]

Cute prose but they simply obfuscate the fact that you cannot compose a coherent rebuttal. What Snowden did was break the law and if his motives were as "pure" as his defenders would like us to believe than he would have stayed in the US to have his day in court (assuming he was charged and prosecuted).

Additionally, exactly what in Snowden's background or the things he has said gives you the confidence that he has the maturity and judgement to decide what is best for the citizens of this country?

I'll start with the most salient issue at hand. It's "then," not "than." (dammit!)

I did not intend my comment to be a rebuttal or argument, pro or con. It was simply an observation. History is filthy with bad laws subsequently challenged and broken by young and old alike. Men and women were deemed chattel, codified and upheld as a "rightful" law. Should all the slaves who availed themselves of the services of those scofflaws who created the Underground Railroad have stayed put, appealed to the Hizzoners of the day applying the current law? Was internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII a well-thought legal policy enacted by adequately mature citizens acting in the best interest of ALL citizens of this country? Did all those young, upstart whippersnappers who defied British "law" to foment and foster revolution deserve cursory confinement and hanging? Did I deserve 10 years in Leavenworth for burning my draft card in 1970? That could have been my fate since I had no intention of moving to Canada.

Enough of the hyperbole. I hope that you get the point. Bullshit abounds as do lazy, bullshit legal justifications. Snowden revealed one of the many shadow activities of what is a growing shadow government operating under an ever expanding shroud of "legal" secrecy.

Let the sunshine ...

 

[dshans]

You scare me, BobD.

 

[BobD]

You scare me, BobD.

Why? You seem like you'd be a great drinking partner.

 

[dshans]

Why? You seem like you'd be a great drinking partner.

Well ... a good drinking partner, especially if you pay. I've formulated and harbored many a traitorous (in your broad-brushed monochrome estimation) thought/opinion over the years. From Joe McCarthy's Red Scare and blacklisting to LBJ's bogus Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, to Nixon's "secret" bombing of Laos and Enemies List to G Dubya's WMD to Gitmo and Guantanamo ... the list goes on.

Had I sh¡t for credible information I'd have been singing like the choir boy I was at St. John Vianney's back in the late 50's and early 60's. I would have refused induction had I been drafted.

I also value the space between my eyes and don't favor torture.

 

[BobD]

Well ... a good drinking partner, especially if you pay. I've formulated and harbored many a traitorous (in your broad-brushed monochrome estimation) thought/opinion over the years. From Joe McCarthy's Red Scare and blacklisting to LBJ's bogus Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, to Nixon's "secret" bombing of Laos and Enemies List to G Dubya's WMD to Gitmo and Guantanamo ... the list goes on.

Had I sh¡t for credible information I'd have been singing like the choir boy I was at St. John Vianney's back in the late 50's and early 60's. I would have refused induction had I been drafted.

I also value the space between my eyes and don't favor torture.

I don't carry a gun anymore and I'm against civilians owning anything but hunting rifles, so I'm fairly harmless. I hate torture, but feel in special situations it's effective and it can actually be painless nowadays. I enjoy debate and good drinks though.

 

[irish1958]

Well ... a good drinking partner, especially if you pay. I've formulated and harbored many a traitorous (in your broad-brushed monochrome estimation) thought/opinion over the years. From Joe McCarthy's Red Scare and blacklisting to LBJ's bogus Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, to Nixon's "secret" bombing of Laos and Enemies List to G Dubya's WMD to Gitmo and Guantanamo ... the list goes on.

Had I sh¡t for credible information I'd have been singing like the choir boy I was at St. John Vianney's back in the late 50's and early 60's. I would have refused induction had I been drafted.

I also value the space between my eyes and don't favor torture.

I struggled with this also. However I opted to serve in the military as I felt that our government was far from perfect, but far better than all other, to paraphrase Winston Churchill.
" To form a MORE perfect union" not "to help destroy an imperfect union."

 

[dshans]

... I hate torture, but feel in special situations it's effective and it can actually be painless nowadays.

This baffles me. Aside from torture being statistically far from effective, I am a bit confuddled*:

Definition of TORTURE
1a : anguish of body or mind : agony
1b : something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining

Aside from definition 3 I can't find my way to "painless." On the other hand, buy me a drink or a dozen or two and I might agree to agree.



Yes, it's a contrived word. You expected a Zeppelin "Dazed and Confused" reference maybe???

 

[BGIF]

Reports: Snowden able to leave Moscow airport - CNN.com

 

[Fbolt]

I really enjoy everyone's comments on this board and realize that those who have already formed an opinion (everyone posting-ha) will not modify that opinion via posts. It is, however, interesting to hear people's views and the things they have done in the past.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Haha! Seriously? A trial? He fled to Hong Kong, revealed state secrets in a televised interview and a few public statements, now he's in Russia applying for asylum. How much evidence do you need?

Screw a trial, I would torture him to find out who and what he's told then shoot him between the eyes and have no qualms.

Sorry, but as you can probably tell, I'm passionate about my hate of anyone who would become a traitor against our country.....and he IS a traitor.

Haven't been around (this thread) for a while. Do you really believe this? Are you really the kind of person that could torture someone?

I am not talking about a pussy like Dick Cheney or that crew that talks a tall tale, or orders the torture of others. I am actually talking about taking the blood-foam spray from the convulsing "victim" strapped in in front of you.

I mean somewhere we have to regulate our language. I understand that "Thou shall not kill" should really be translate as, "Thou shall not murder." And I have been through Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiæ, Question 40, Of War, with countless conversations about when war is just and when it is moral to kill. But you are going to take this computer dweeb, who you keep calling arrogant, out and slice body parts off? Really?

 

[BobD]

Haven't been around (this thread) for a while. Do you really believe this? Are you really the kind of person that could torture someone?

I am not talking about a pussy like Dick Cheney or that crew that talks a tall tale, or orders the torture of others. I am actually talking about taking the blood-foam spray from the convulsing "victim" strapped in in front of you.

I mean somewhere we have to regulate our language. I understand that "Thou shall not kill" should really be translate as, "Thou shall not murder." And I have been through Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiæ, Question 40, Of War, with countless conversations about when war is just and when it is moral to kill. But you are going to take this computer dweeb, who you keep calling arrogant, out and slice body parts off? Really?

Absolutely not. As I mentioned previously, torture can be painless nowadays. Maybe it would be better described as high tech interrogation. Drugs, lighting and environmentally controlled rooms used to cause disorientation kind of stuff. After a month he'd think he had been there for years. He might be a marshmallow afterwards, but it's painless.

I hate the idea of torture and would never use it on a battlefield against soldiers, but there are spies and stooges like Snowden that we need the absolute truth from.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Absolutely not. As I mentioned previously, torture can be painless nowadays. Maybe it would be better described as high tech interrogation. Drugs, lighting and environmentally controlled rooms used to cause disorientation kind of stuff. After a month he'd think he had been there for years. He might be a marshmallow afterwards, but it's painless.

I hate the idea of torture and would never use it on a battlefield against soldiers, but there are spies and stooges like Snowden that we need the absolute truth from.

God help us all if you're ever in charge. Seriously.

 

[BobD]

God help us all if you're ever in charge. Seriously.

I agree.

I'd much rather be a knight than the king anyways.

 

[BobD]

Some good news!

USA TODAY

 

[kmoose]

God help us all if you're ever in charge. Seriously.

You just made the list, Buster.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Absolutely not. As I mentioned previously, torture can be painless nowadays. Maybe it would be better described as high tech interrogation. Drugs, lighting and environmentally controlled rooms used to cause disorientation kind of stuff. After a month he'd think he had been there for years. He might be a marshmallow afterwards, but it's painless.

I hate the idea of torture and would never use it on a battlefield against soldiers, but there are spies and stooges like Snowden that we need the absolute truth from.

First of all. Torture cannot be painless, that is a concoction of the Cheney backed coalition, TV, or some other Pollyanna approach to American foreign policy. (Note I did not call it American Imperialism, or American foreign aggression.)

Also please note congresses response: House narrowly rejects effort to halt NSA program

Actually, Bob, this is not good news for all fans of "painless torture." The bill was brought for a vote right away to kill it before it reached a vote, and it still almost passed, which is a tremendous showing! It will push more politicians toward regulation. Where this would have gotten killed, and this is how our government works, is in the reconciliation process between the house and the senate. Now there is time and momentum to work on legislation in the senate too, and coordinate an effort between both congressional bodies.

Also of note was that establishment (big money) puppets Nancy Pelosi and John Boehner both voted for the bill! Think of that! The threat of passage was so great that they actually got Boehner in off the links to vote! Truthfully, Boehner rarely votes on anything.

217-205 with both Nancy Pelosi and John Boehner voted against the bill and for the NSA, as did Michelle Bachman.

 

[BobD]

No matter how close, it would have never passed.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Exactly. It shouldn't even have been close! But it was! Hmmm? How does it bode for opponents of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?

 

[Buster Bluth]

Dan Carlin had perhaps the single best podcast I've ever listened to back in June on this matter. Absolutely terrific stuff. I'll find the link and post it when I get back from work.