George Zimmerman Trial

[GoIrish41]

It's going to subtly paint Martin as "a druggie", in the eyes of some jurors. It's a pretty sickening attempt to cheapen Martin's life, and try to convince a juror or two that no one needs to be held accountable for the loss of such a "worthless" life.

pretty insulting to jurors, no?

 

[kmoose]

pretty insulting to jurors, no?

Only if they notice. I'd bet that, after all of the information/opinion that they have been force fed, maybe one or two is even aware of the subtlety of the drug accusation.

 

[GoIrish41]

You don't think an allegation that someone is on drugs is made "more meaningful" when it is later proven that they actually were on drugs? Seriously?

I swear, something about this trial is making people totally unhinged.

I thought zimmerman was on trial. didn't mean to become unhinged.

 

[EddytoNow]

for both sides, let me point out again that we don't know for sure what happened...

we know that GZ (a neighborhood watch guy) was following TM an unknown (to GZ) in a neighborhood that had experienced some thefts

we know that there was a confrontation

we know someone was on top of someone else (and possibly also reversed during the struggle)

we know there was a scream

we know TM was shot by GZ (perhaps in a struggle perhaps not) and died from his wounds

we know GZ had wounds on and about his head


What else do we know? And feel free to point out where I am wrong on any of the items I listed above

I think you've summed things up nicely. The physical evidence and testimony seems to support GZ's account of what happened. That doesn't mean we know or will ever know everything that happened. but it makes it difficult to meet the standard of "Guilty Beyond a Reasonable Doubt". There's plenty of room for doubt, and IMO the authorities knew that going in but succumbed to political pressure encouraged by the media. GZ may be guilty of more than self-defense, but conclusive evidence to the that effect has not been presented to date.

 

[phgreek]

That clearly goes against the recommendations of the National Sheriffs Association.

I'm sure they would have to recommend you don't approach...they'd get sued when some idiot flies off the handle and hurts a neighborhood watch person. I am confident the advice is offered to protect watch folks from getting hurt...its not to tell them its against the law or wrong to approach and question strangers, nor in any way meant to condone this attitude where property owners acting in their common interest don't have a right to question those "walking through"...Hell just because it was alluded to here today, I went outside, and introduced myself to four joggers and six guys on bikes, and one was, gasp, a minority....and he and I talked for a few minutes, exchanged some secret fishing spots...I suppose he should have punched me though...

I don't think a cop in the world would argue that the deterrent factor goes way up if everyone is approached, acknowledged, and spoken to. Criminals operate on anonymity, and when you take it away, they go elsewhere...I wouldn't recommend being real aggressive, and I think by the time we are 20, we have enough people skills to pull it off.

 

[BobD]

Odds on when we get a verdict?

I'll guess the defense rests tomorrow an we get a verdict on Friday before lunch.

 

[irishpat183]

... So folks fearing for their property have no right to question those they do not recognize...and pursue those who FVCKING RUN from them...SURE, that makes perfect sense, if you are Skip Bayless and drew the short straw on a topic...



1) Based on my recollection its a huge stretch to say "his own neighborhood" like he'd been there all his life...
2) The tragic nature of what happened here offers no justification for making this racial. I see no immediate or underlying racial "motive"...although there have been tons of racially motivated "reactions" first by Martin (Crazy-***-cracker) then after the encounter by folks like the President, Congress people, Al Sharpton, et al.
3) I see a lot of people acknowledging that the state's case blows a$$, and also acknowledging there are 1000 legitimate reasons putting Zimmerman on Martin's tale in addition to the more oft forwarded illegitimate ones.

What I don't see is folks acknowledging that Martin's attitudes/conduct might have contributed to a physical confrontation that has him in the ground now...and there is a TON more support for that being reality than any attitude you could ascribe to Zimmerman's actions which caused these two to cross paths.

Boom.

Like I said...Given TM's history, why is it just assumed that GZ started the fight?

 

[irishpat183]

Forensic expert: Gunshot wound indicates Trayvon was atop Zimmerman | Fox News

This only confirms it.


Sadly, TM was probably some punk, that when confronted by authority (like his bus driver) acted like an idiot....to keep it "real". Which lead to the confrontation with Zimmerman.

Whether or not you think that someone approaching you is reason to attack....it still doesn't mean GZ is gulity of murder. It's fact that he was on bottom getting pounded (no homo) by TM.

Size is also no issue. Neither is age. Plenty of smaller, younger guys have beaten much larger, older people. That's irrelevent.


As others have stated, legally...GZ is not gulity of anything. If you question his habits, that's one thing. But again, there is someone like him in EVERY neighborhood.

 

[irishpat183]

It's going to subtly paint Martin as "a druggie", in the eyes of some jurors. It's a pretty sickening attempt to cheapen Martin's life, and try to convince a juror or two that no one needs to be held accountable for the loss of such a "worthless" life.

Or, they're simply tying to fight off the BS rumors from the media and you, that TM was some poor child.

He wasn't some innocent "kid".

 

[FLDomer]

Broward Sheriffs (Largest Sheriffs dept in the state) are coordinating with Sanford PD to lend support depending on the verdict on the case...could get sketchy.

 

[kmoose]

Or, they're simply tying to fight off the BS rumors from the media and you, that TM was some poor child.

He wasn't some innocent "kid".

I think you need to go back and look at my posts in this thread. You must have me confused with someone else.

 

[irishpat183]

I think you need to go back and look at my posts in this thread. You must have me confused with someone else.

Probably. My bad.

 

[irishpat183]

I'm not joking. That's what TM allegedly said. You can't dismiss that issue, because it may have happened. Also, I didn't know "minding your own" business gave you carte blanche to beat someone's a$$ if you thought someone's following you. And why would someone need to defend oneself w/ a physical confrontation just b/c they were being followed? That doesn't make sense.

Exactly. What planet are these people from?


So checking someone out is grounds for a fight? LOL.....People have lost their minds.

 

[irishpat183]

Theory: Two wannabes and tragic timing.

TM : Like many nice young kids these days, maybe he grew up wanting to project this thug image kids find so cool these days and he carried his wannabe role a little too far at a very bad time?

GZ: Taking law enforcement classes, starting a neighborhood watch, riding along with
cops, carrying a gun and he carried his wannabe role a little too far at a very bad time?

I will add this: IMO, If GZ doesn't have that gun, none of this ever happens.

More like: If GZ doens't have a gun, TM doesn't die...but it doesn't mean GZ survives.

 

[irishpat183]

Broward Sheriffs (Largest Sheriffs dept in the state) are coordinating with Sanford PD to lend support depending on the verdict on the case...could get sketchy.

Sadly, it will....


And some on here said it's "not about race". Like hell it's not. And you can thank the media and blowhard "social leaders" for that.

There have been 14 documented retaliation crimes since it happened...I'd expect it to get a lot worse.

Make sure you're packing, FLDomer!

 

[Irish Insanity]

I can't possibly answer all of these posts at once, and it doesn't seem like it would do much good anyways. So instead, lets try to flip the question around: did Trayvon Martin deserve to die for walking through a neighborhood minding his own business? Did he even deserve to be confronted or have any attention paid to him at all? I say no. And therefore, the person who did pay attention to him and confronted him without justification, and who shot the kid - note: shot.the.kid. - deserves to pay. If it were up to me, he'd pay with his life because that is what I think he deserves. There is not a fact that I can imagine that would square with what we know about the incident that would excuse this grown man from arbitrarily interjecting himself into this kid's life and then killing him. That is how I feel about it. I'm not writing a rebuttal to Dan Abrams here, I'm just giving my opinion, and you may not agree.

THIS

I stay out of the legal argument for all of this because I'm not educated enough along those lines. But, to me, someone unnecessarily lost their life. That to me is inexcusable. GZ seemed to be proactive in his actions that ultimately lead to the final result, where I feel TM was reactive. There were things GZ could have chosen not to do that would have lead to a different outcome (following TM, ignoring what the 911 operator said...) There is a difference between keeping an eye out on neighborhood watch and allowing the authorities to do their job once you notify them of something you see as suspicious, and actively pursuing someone that at that point you've seen do nothing wrong, but fear they may. If GZ thought TM was suspicious acting, or that he fit the description of a prior thief that he was aware of, or basically anything in a criminal category, anyone would have reasonably assumed that pursuing him where a possible confrontation could occur would be not the best choice. Making the decision to pursue to begin with, taking into consideration no other actions by him, alone could have prevented the outcome. A man, young man, unnecessarily lost his life.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Exactly. What planet are these people from?


So checking someone out is grounds for a fight? LOL.....People have lost their minds.

Hang on a sec.

If I am in an unfamiliar setting and someone is following me, I am going to be very uncomfortable. Certain people react differently when they feel uncomfortable or threatened. The problem is, you have no idea how someone will react when put in that situation. Some will continue to walk away, perhaps more briskly. Some might turn around and ask if there is a problem. Some might act physically. It is unpredictable.

 

[CanadianIrish]

This is one of the most ridiculous statements i have ever read

I think what's interesting about this whole issue, and this thread,is how ingrained people's opinions are anyhow much of a reflection they are abut their world view. The quoted postwar in response to me saying as a Canadian lawyer Zimmerman's account is not a defense in Canada and shocked it is in Florida. In response I was called a idiot by many people,none of whom are Canadian let alone canadian lawyers. For those who care, our criminal code has had special provisions for self defense where you provoke the assault. Who Zimmerman's account would not have bee a defense. Our government revised the self defense laws in March to make them more vague, but the requirement will still probably be read into the code.

Why are people so personally invested in this case? You have tens of thousands of murders a year, why does this one deserve so much attention? Seems like nothing but a media spectacle to me.

 

[connor_in]

Once again...the only fact we know is that GZ was following TM.

Don't know who confronted whom

Don't know who initiated physical contact

Unsure who was on top of whom, could potentially have been one then the other, but this UNKNOWN for sure

 

[Ndaccountant]

Once again...the only fact we know is that GZ was following TM.

Don't know who confronted whom

Don't know who initiated physical contact

Unsure who was on top of whom, could potentially have been one then the other, but this UNKNOWN for sure

You are right, but does that matter? The confrontation, no matter who started it, was a result of GZ following him.

If someone is following me, I am going to not feel comfortable and will feel threatened. Wouldn't you?

 

[Emcee77]

I think what's interesting about this whole issue, and this thread,is how ingrained people's opinions are anyhow much of a reflection they are abut their world view. The quoted postwar in response to me saying as a Canadian lawyer Zimmerman's account is not a defense in Canada and shocked it is in Florida. In response I was called a idiot by many people,none of whom are Canadian let alone canadian lawyers. For those who care, our criminal code has had special provisions for self defense where you provoke the assault. Who Zimmerman's account would not have bee a defense. Our government revised the self defense laws in March to make them more vague, but the requirement will still probably be read into the code.

Why are people so personally invested in this case? You have tens of thousands of murders a year, why does this one deserve so much attention? Seems like nothing but a media spectacle to me.

Wait, really? Non-physical provocation of an attack causes the provocateur to lose his self-defense rights? So in Canada, if I call you a jive turkey, and you attack me, I can't defend myself? That really surprises me if true. In the U.S. you can insult people all you want; you don't lose self-defense rights unless you initiate the physical confrontation. Maybe this explains why Canadians are so nice, haha.

The difference may be explained by the First Amendment. In Canada, you have hate speech laws. In the U.S., we don't; the Supreme Court says that the First Amendment protects even "the thought that we hate." To an American lawyer the idea of a person losing his self-defense rights by expressing himself in some lawful way, even if it's morally repugnant, seems strange.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Wait, really? Non-physical provocation of an attack causes the provocateur to lose his self-defense rights? So in Canada, if I call you a jive turkey, and you attack me, I can't defend myself? That really surprises me if true. Maybe that explains why Canadians are so nice, haha.

LOL.

Made me think of this......

 

[Golden_Domer]

You are right, but does that matter? The confrontation, no matter who started it, was a result of GZ following him.

If someone is following me, I am going to not feel comfortable and will feel threatened. Wouldn't you?

It does matter from a legal standpoint.

 

[FLDomer]

Sadly, it will....


And some on here said it's "not about race". Like hell it's not. And you can thank the media and blowhard "social leaders" for that.

There have been 14 documented retaliation crimes since it happened...I'd expect it to get a lot worse.

Make sure you're packing, FLDomer!

I am, and so is the wife (although she is not of Caucasian decent so she hopefully would not be targeted)

 

[Ndaccountant]

It does matter from a legal standpoint.

Sorry, I have not been talking from the legal standpoint this whole thread. I understand the legal arguments and respect them, but believe that GZ should have some level of accountability here. I do not believe he should be charged with murder and I am not sure what the remedy would be.

 

[Golden_Domer]

Sorry, I have not been talking from the legal standpoint this whole thread. I understand the legal arguments and respect them, but believe that GZ should have some level of accountability here. I do not believe he should be charged with murder and I am not sure what the remedy would be.

Well if he did do something wrong, he may be held accountable when he faces his Creator, but from a U.S. legal standpoint, applying Florida state laws, it appears he will be off the hook. One thing is certain, his life will never be the same after this, regardless of the verdict.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Well if he did do something wrong, he may be held accountable when he faces his Creator, but from a U.S. legal standpoint, applying Florida state laws, it appears he will be off the hook. One thing is certain, his life will never be the same after this, regardless of the verdict.[/QUOTE]

That I can agree with, although that is still disproportional to what TM suffered.

 

[connor_in]

You are right, but does that matter? The confrontation, no matter who started it, was a result of GZ following him.

If someone is following me, I am going to not feel comfortable and will feel threatened. Wouldn't you?

Yes...

He could be following him for any reason ranging from maniacal killer looking for prey...to what is this guy up to...to hey he's cute...to is that Dave...to that is a cool jacket I wonder where he got it. Most of those do not end in violent confrontation and as stated previously we don't know who confronted whom and who initiated physical contact.

 

[Golden_Domer]

Odds on when we get a verdict?

I'll guess the defense rests tomorrow an we get a verdict on Friday before lunch.

If the verdict comes down within the next few days, I hope it's on Monday. I have a feeling the impact of any potential immediate riots would be somewhat curbed if the verdict was handed down on Monday rather than Friday.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Yes...

He could be following him for any reason ranging from maniacal killer looking for prey...to what is this guy up to...to hey he's cute...to is that Dave...to that is a cool jacket I wonder where he got it. Most of those do not end in violent confrontation and as stated previously we don't know who confronted whom and who initiated physical contact.

Sorry, I have a hard time believing that someone is following me, at night, in the rain, to comment on my jacket.

Given the circumstances, I too, would feel threatened.