'14 IL DT Enoch Smith (Michigan State Verbal)

Luckylucci

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And yet Gaston tormented us all game long in South Bend this past year. Gaston was a damn good player for Purdue.

You don't need all elite guys to be an elite team. Ask USC how that's working out. Or ask Urban Meyer how he liked that his last 2 years at FL. There's absolutely nothing wrong with getting glue guys, and diamonds in the rough, and guys that will only end up being 'rotational' guys. I'll take 'solid' players that want to be at ND and mix them with as many elite players as you can find.

I think the above is an exceptional point. You have to have some role players on the team that are willing to only play 20 snaps a game but give you his best 20 reps every Saturday without fail. U get too many stars on the team and like LA stated u get USC. Springmann to me is a perfect example of this. We only start 3 down lineman we have to have another 5-6 that are competitive but also willing to not play the whole game.
 

Rack Em

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For every USC isn't there an Alabama?

Not this year's Alabama. Even the top tier SEC teams have guys that are "role players" on the DL. Hell the NFL does it too.

And at this point we have no reason to believe Enoch would be just a fill-in should he attend ND. He might very well be the next BJ Raji or JJ Watt for ND.
 

drake29

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Not this year's Alabama. Even the top tier SEC teams have guys that are "role players" on the DL. Hell the NFL does it too.

And at this point we have no reason to believe Enoch would be just a fill-in should he attend ND. He might very well be the next BJ Raji or JJ Watt for ND.

Look, I'm not saying we shouldn't take him at all. But why would we take Smith NOW, if we still have elite prospects on the board. If he's not at the top of your board in March - you shouldn't take him. There's been a lot of speculation that he has a conditional offer. The staff is taking a wait and see approach. He's had ND at the top for the entire process - there is no rush to take a commitment. That's literally ALL I'm saying. He's not elite, so wait and see. If we strike out on several top guys his offer becomes one that he can act on. Hell, maybe there's a chance it's close the signing day and we have an open spot after we thought we had filled all of our DL spots and we STILL take him. Good, I'm glad at that point. But you can't leave elite players out to dry just because they want to take their time when making their decision.
 
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Not this year's Alabama. Even the top tier SEC teams have guys that are "role players" on the DL. Hell the NFL does it too.

And at this point we have no reason to believe Enoch would be just a fill-in should he attend ND. He might very well be the next BJ Raji or JJ Watt for ND.

True but are elite teams pushing for "role players" to commit this soon in the cycle?

Table is set for another BCS run, don't see why the staff would take projects or role players at this point. We might not get elite, but maybe a little better if we hold out longer.

Edit: yeah what Drake said lol
 

yankeeND

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I have no problem taking this guy right now and not looking back. If he is versatile enough to be a swing player on the line that would leave just taking a true NG and then just keep recruiting the elite guys like McDowell and Carter. You take those guys regardless of spots.
 

Rack Em

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Look, I'm not saying we shouldn't take him at all. But why would we take Smith NOW, if we still have elite prospects on the board. If he's not at the top of your board in March - you shouldn't take him. There's been a lot of speculation that he has a conditional offer. The staff is taking a wait and see approach. He's had ND at the top for the entire process - there is no rush to take a commitment. That's literally ALL I'm saying. He's not elite, so wait and see. If we strike out on several top guys his offer becomes one that he can act on. Hell, maybe there's a chance it's close the signing day and we have an open spot after we thought we had filled all of our DL spots and we STILL take him. Good, I'm glad at that point. But you can't leave elite players out to dry just because they want to take their time when making their decision.

True but are elite teams pushing for "role players" to commit this soon in the cycle?

Table is set for another BCS run, don't see why the staff would take projects or role players at this point. We might not get elite, but maybe a little better if we hold out longer.

Edit: yeah what Drake said lol

If he hasn't committed by now, that's a good indication (I believe) of where he is on our DL board. I'm not pushing for us to accept a commitment now given our other options and how the staff apparently feels about him - but I sure as hell won't be upset if we take him. I think he's going to be better than what some of you guys think he will be.
 

drake29

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I got a buddy who's coached against him....Needless to say he was a bit shocked when ND offered so soon. Not saying he won't be a solid player, but we need to wait. That's all.
 

NDinL.A.

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True but are elite teams pushing for "role players" to commit this soon in the cycle?

Table is set for another BCS run, don't see why the staff would take projects or role players at this point. We might not get elite, but maybe a little better if we hold out longer.

Edit: yeah what Drake said lol

Nick Saban and Alabama are about as elite as it gets, no? Go look at their classes the past few years. Yeah, they get the studs, no doubt, but they get their fair share of 3 stars, and they get them early in many cases.

Thing is, they trust their eyes. They don't give a crap about star rankings; they go with who they believe will fit their system and thrive at their school, star ratings be damned. That's what I'm saying ND should always be doing.

2 caveats though:
1) Saban essentially cuts players, giving him an advantage ND does not have, and so obviously ND has to be more picky and REALLY trust their eyes.
2) Again, I haven't watched Smith's film so I have no idea how good he really is. If the staff has given him a conditional offer, cool. I'm just saying if the staff likes him, and trusts their own eyes, then I would have no problem with them taking his committment while still going after more elite players.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Nick Saban and Alabama are about as elite as it gets, no? Go look at their classes the past few years. Yeah, they get the studs, no doubt, but they get their fair share of 3 stars, and they get them early in many cases.

Thing is, they trust their eyes. They don't give a crap about star rankings; they go with who they believe will fit their system and thrive at their school, star ratings be damned. That's what I'm saying ND should always be doing.

2 caveats though:
1) Saban essentially cuts players, giving him an advantage ND does not have, and so obviously ND has to be more picky and REALLY trust their eyes.
2) Again, I haven't watched Smith's film so I have no idea how good he really is. If the staff has given him a conditional offer, cool. I'm just saying if the staff likes him, and trusts their own eyes, then I would have no problem with them taking his committment while still going after more elite players.

Exactly.
 

EddytoNow

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Star rankings should be taken with a grain of salt. Didn't we recently have a 5-Star offensive lineman who underachieved for his entire four years, a 5-star quarterback who couldn't perform once the game started, a 5-star runningback who got injured and never reached his full potential, a 5-Star runningback who had to share playing time with someone else who had more grit and determination, and another 5-star quarterback who doesn't want to compete for playing time and has been released to transfer elsewhere?

We also have had a 4-Star defensive tackle/nose guard who is the best in the country, a local recruit who turned out to be the best tight end in the country, a safety who was under-rated until this past year when he proved his value by leading a very young secondary, and a 4-Star quarterback who has forced two 5-Star quarterbacks to seek playing time somewhere else.

If Coach Kelly and his staff have decided Enoch Smith is a defensive lineman that fits their system, then that's good enough for me. They are far better at evaluating talent than the self-appointed experts who run the recruiting sites. If Enoch has been offered and commits then I will welcome him with open arms.
 

CanadalovesND

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Star rankings should be taken with a grain of salt. Didn't we recently have a 5-Star offensive lineman (Sam Young?) who underachieved for his entire four years, a 5-star quarterback (Dayne Crist?) who couldn't perform once the game started, a 5-star runningback (James Aldridge?) who got injured and never reached his full potential, a 5-Star runningback (Cierre Wood was never a 5 star) who had to share playing time with someone else who had more grit and determination, and another 5-star quarterback who doesn't want to compete for playing time and has been released to transfer elsewhere?

We also have had a 4-Star defensive tackle/nose guard who is the best in the country, a local recruit who turned out to be the best tight end in the country, a safety who was under-rated until this past year when he proved his value by leading a very young secondary, and a 4-Star quarterback who has forced two 5-Star quarterbacks to seek playing time somewhere else.

If Coach Kelly and his staff have decided Enoch Smith is a defensive lineman that fits their system, then that's good enough for me. They are far better at evaluating talent than the self-appointed experts who run the recruiting sites. If Enoch has been offered and commits then I will welcome him with open arms.
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sparkyND

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Star rankings should be taken with a grain of salt. Didn't we recently have a 5-Star offensive lineman who underachieved for his entire four years, a 5-star quarterback who couldn't perform once the game started, a 5-star runningback who got injured and never reached his full potential, a 5-Star runningback who had to share playing time with someone else who had more grit and determination, and another 5-star quarterback who doesn't want to compete for playing time and has been released to transfer elsewhere?

We also have had a 4-Star defensive tackle/nose guard who is the best in the country, a local recruit who turned out to be the best tight end in the country, a safety who was under-rated until this past year when he proved his value by leading a very young secondary, and a 4-Star quarterback who has forced two 5-Star quarterbacks to seek playing time somewhere else.

If Coach Kelly and his staff have decided Enoch Smith is a defensive lineman that fits their system, then that's good enough for me. They are far better at evaluating talent than the self-appointed experts who run the recruiting sites. If Enoch has been offered and commits then I will welcome him with open arms.
Man this is like an Irish pop-quiz!
 
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Grahambo

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Star rankings are just eye candy for the fans; nothing more/nothing less.

As I have never been in a coaches meeting when evaluating talent I say this as my own opinion but I doubt coaches factor star rankings into their decision.

Offer list should outweigh rankings everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

If you see a high 3 or low 4 star having to decide between schools like ND, Stanford, Alabama, and Ohio State then it is safe to assume you can toss aside the rankings.
 
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koonja

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Star rankings are just eye candy for the fans; nothing more/nothing less.

As I have never been in a coaches meeting when evaluating talent I say this as my own opinion but I doubt coaches factor star rankings into their decision.

Offer list should outweigh rankings everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

If you see a high 3 or low 4 star having to decide between schools like ND, Stanford, Alabama, and Ohio State then it is safe to assume you can toss aside the rankings.

Agree. But in Smith's case, he's lacking BCS level offers. Maybe his camp performance will get him more interest.
 
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Grahambo

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Agree. But in Smith's case, he's lacking BCS level offers. Maybe his camp performance will get him more interest.

I do see that. Other then ND looks like his next biggest offer is from Sparty.
 

Irishnuke

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We also have a 5 star who is the second best DE in the country. We had a 5 star who was the best TE in the country despite always being injured and turned out to be a second round draft pick and Pro-bowl MVP. We had a 5 star WR who was a high first round draft pick. We had a 5 star LB who won nearly every award possible and is a huge reason we played in the BCS NCG. We had four 5 star recruits in this past class and while we don't know how they'll perform over their career, I'd bet most of them play in the NFL one day.

I agree though that if the staff decides to take his commitment, that's good enough for me as well.
 

EddytoNow

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Both Rivals and Scout had Cierre Wood listed as a 5-Star on the first page of his player profile. Go back to the archives and look at the 2009 commitments.

My point wasn't that 5-Star players never succeed. It was that being a 5-Star recruit doesn't guarantee success, and many 4-Star and 3-Star players end up being very successful on the field and ultimately in the NFL.

At this point we don't know what Enoch Smith's final rating will be, nor can we tell how successful he will be as a college football player. What we do know is that our coaching staff and many other coaching staffs have offered him a scholarship to play football, including Michigan State, Tennessee, Syracuse, Cincinnati, and Purdue. I'm sure the list will grow as dominoes start to fall in the recruiting process.
 

CanadalovesND

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Both Rivals and Scout had Cierre Wood listed as a 5-Star on the first page of his player profile. Go back to the archives and look at the 2009 commitments.

My point wasn't that 5-Star players never succeed. It was that being a 5-Star recruit doesn't guarantee success, and many 4-Star and 3-Star players end up being very successful on the field and ultimately in the NFL.

At this point we don't know what Enoch Smith's final rating will be, nor can we tell how successful he will be as a college football player. What we do know is that our coaching staff and many other coaching staffs have offered him a scholarship to play football, including Michigan State, Tennessee, Syracuse, Cincinnati, and Purdue. I'm sure the list will grow as dominoes start to fall in the recruiting process.

Cierre Wood - Yahoo! Sports 4 star

Scout.com: Cierre Wood Profile 4 star
 

Old Man Mike

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As usual with us on IE, I read a lot of strong opinions about positions that the accused posters never made. My position [always fraught with error in understanding and particularly prediction] is:

1). Enoch Smith is a really good prospect. The Notre Dame staff offered. Who's arguing otherwise?

2). We have athletes for similar defensive positions already verballed and others on the board who seem very interested in ND, who seem, as best we can determine, of slightly higher potential [Clark, McDowell, etc]. Some of that is flat fact; some could be debated.

3). We will probably have about twenty scholarships to give in the 2014 cycle. That's smallish and requires greater precision than usual. As others have said, Alabama has no such practical restrictions as they find ways to eliminate bench players. The point of this is: No. We cannot just take everyone who is a latecomer just because they are potentially great. We must play by our morality rules.

4). It is my understanding that there are "offers" and there are "OFFERS". The "OFFERS" are: Hey! Jump on board anytime. The "offers" are soft agreements that we're very interested but "we'll hold off" on the flat OFFER. If this tricky edge-walking strategy is true, then I would not be surprised if Smith had an "offer" rather than an OFFER.

5). Should Enoch accept an actionable OFFER, that means that the staff accepts him as desirable on the team, and, as we [unless we're fools] MUST trust their competence, then that ends the discussion. I doubt that anyone is arguing against that.

The nub of this thing for me is what the understanding between Enoch and The Staff really is. If the offer is actually solidly actionable, then the staff has decided that Enoch Smith is clearly their kind of guy despite Clark and McDowell, and numbers.
 

tadman95

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Cierre was a 5 star when he committed to Notre Dame and was a Top Ten recruit. The he committed and began the predictable decline in ratings, all the way down to a 4 star and a 80 something rating.

The issue with 5 star players is, and always will be, are they early developers who are maxed out going into college? Or will they continue to progress and remain elite in college?
 
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koonja

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Cierre was a 5 star when he committed to Notre Dame and was a Top Ten recruit. The he committed and began the predictable decline in ratings, all the way down to a 4 star and a 80 something rating.

The issue with 5 star players is, and always will be, are they early developers who are maxed out going into college? Or will they continue to progress and remain elite in college?

I don't know how they determine star rating, and IDK if 5-stars typically develop early then it evens out or not, all I know is that having a lot of 4/5-star guys on the team typically equates to a lot of success.
 

dublinirish

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5 star guys always go down in the rankings because they aren't playing the recruiting game.
 
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Yeah I think offer vs OFFER is what we are basically debating.

And I agree with the stars thing. Pretty sure coaches dgaf about that.

And my point with Bama is you can get a bunch future NFL players to play as a team.
 

drake29

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They dropped Cierre in the ratings because he wasn't a 5star talent. He was good coming out of HS but lets face it - he was no Lattimore, Peterson, Yeldon, etc. RB seems to be a spot in recruiting that services rank athletes higher than they should. I don't think Bryant or Folston are 5 star talents, but they're very good. I don't think I could put Bryant into the same class as the first three. I don't think he's as good as Fournette or Michel either.
 

Old Man Mike

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Such conversations are rather meaningless without a working definition of five vs four stars with achievable data determinants.

Or, to put it another way: What-in-the-He!l are we talking about??


We're not much above the level of "He get ball, he gone!!".


Not sure what this has to do with young Superman Enoch Smith either. Maybe: "He get Ballcarrier; he gone!!"




p.s. something that someone smarter than I [and with more fanaticism] could do which would be of potentially extreme interest would be to construct an IE definition of 5 vs 4 vs 3 stars in general terms, and then develop specific qualities for evaluating that for different positions. I.E. generally here is what it means to be a five-star, and if you're a defensive tackle, these are the specifics which would qualify for that. This would still be "subjective" but we'd at least know what we were being subjective about.
 
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Buster Bluth

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They dropped Cierre in the ratings because he wasn't a 5star talent. He was good coming out of HS but lets face it - he was no Lattimore, Peterson, Yeldon, etc. RB seems to be a spot in recruiting that services rank athletes higher than they should. I don't think Bryant or Folston are 5 star talents, but they're very good. I don't think I could put Bryant into the same class as the first three. I don't think he's as good as Fournette or Michel either.

Peterson is a six-star talent. He's one of the all-time greats. Fournette and Lattimore are the best of their years, respectively. You can be worse and still be five-star good.
 

drake29

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I think 5 star status shoukd be reserved for slecial athletes. That's all. Cierre is very good - but not THAT good.
 
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