Why does ND always choke in the Tournament?

[IrishSteelhead]

Brey is far from the reason ND basketball is competitive, and anyone arguing that needs to realize that Digger had a virtually IDENTICAL record as Brey does at ND. I'm not endorsing Digger, just saying there are many options available. If you are satisfied with a 20 win season and watching a 2 hour torture show against a s-itty team every March, read no further.

Leaving the Big East won't hurt either. That league is full of wanna be tough guys used to getting it put in dry during the tounament. So overrated......

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Neve gonna happen, but it would be awesome to send Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens a blank check to gauge their interest (which I'm sure is 0)

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

His teams compete during the regular season, during the BE tournament, and he's getting better recruits. But something about his style/preparation for the Big Dance that is absolutely pathetic. He's great during the season, but really needs to reevaluate how he preps for the tourney.

In all honesty, he's probably the best coach ND could have. Very few coaches would come here knowing they'll NEVER GET A 1 AND DONE.

Nailed it.

 

[Buster Bluth]

That league is full of wanna be tough guys used to getting it put in dry during the tounament. So overrated......

I totally agree....if you choose to ignore that in 2011 Connecticut won the National Championship and took ninth in the Big East, or Louisville making the Final Four last season despite finishing seventh in the Big East.

...or the 8 final four teams in the last decade (ACC = 6, B1G = 6, Big 12 = 5, Pac-12 = 3), and 10 if you include Marquette/Louisville when they were in the C-USA (in regards to caliber of programs). Or the three national championships.

 

[BeauBenken]

ND consistently has a better season than I would expect...except now I've learned to expect that from them. And the recruiting is really beginning to pick up. Umm, pretty sure we just got one of the best PGs in the nation in Demetrius Jackson. So I'm not sure why you're all so glum.

Does getting to the 2nd round really matter that much if you lose?

I'm looking forward to a much more athletic team in the near future.

I'm so tired of you guys getting angry and yelling all the time. It's exhausting.

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[Pachuco]

ND consistently has a better season than I would expect...except now I've learned to expect that from them. And the recruiting is really beginning to pick up. Umm, pretty sure we just got one of the best PGs in the nation in Demetrius Jackson. So I'm not sure why you're all so glum.

Does getting to the 2nd round really matter that much if you lose?

I'm looking forward to a much more athletic team in the near future.

I'm so tired of you guys getting angry and yelling all the time. It's exhausting.

Haters.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Does getting to the 2nd round really matter that much if you lose?

lol wut

 

[IrishSteelhead]

I totally agree....if you choose to ignore that in 2011 Connecticut won the National Championship and took ninth in the Big East, or Louisville making the Final Four last season despite finishing seventh in the Big East.

...or the 8 final four teams in the last decade (ACC = 6, B1G = 6, Big 12 = 5, Pac-12 = 3), and 10 if you include Marquette/Louisville when they were in the C-USA (in regards to caliber of programs). Or the three national championships.

Still hold my opinion (and many others) which is the BE is a paper tiger, and with 15 teams and all the publicity they get 8 FF teams in a decade is actually pathetic.

 

[phork]

So can maybe we can convince the Womens coach to pull double duty? Guaranteed Final Four!

 

[BeauBenken]

lol wut

What's so 'wut' about that? Losing in the second round isn't the mark of an elite team. That would be the next step for this team. Or do you all really think this is a Final Four type team or something? If that's the case, you're just delusional.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

What's so 'wut' about that? Losing in the second round isn't the mark of an elite team. That would be the next step for this team. Or do you all really think this is a Final Four type team or something? If that's the case, you're just delusional.

That's the point. Nobody thought this was a final four team, and we are angry because of it. Bring in somebody that can put together one. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, time for a change. Maybe that change is as simple as the ACC, well see. MB isn't going anywhere anyways, no matter how much we complain.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

How many schools really get 1 and dones regularly? The great programs do and maybe some smaller big conference schools get one every decade, but for the most part the one and dones are restricted to 10 programs. Plenty of teams are successful without relying on one year players. Brey can't use recruiting as an excuse when he has Beachem and Jackson coming in a year after getting Biedscheid and Auguste.

Bingo. Since the NBA age limit, there have been 39 one and dones, representing about 25 schools.

Kentucky, Kansas, Memphis, Ohio State (4 programs) eat up over half of these 39 players.


One and dones are severely limited to about 5-10 programs tops, with occasional outliers.

 

[BeauBenken]

That's the point. Nobody thought this was a final four team, and we are angry because of it. Bring in somebody that can put together one. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, time for a change. Maybe that change is as simple as the ACC, well see. MB isn't going anywhere anyways, no matter how much we complain.

That **** just doesn't happen though.

I'm not sure you guys comprehend how hard it is to win a NC in basketball or even make it to the Final Four. Since as far back as 1991 (22 NC games), 12 teams have won the title. Duke x 4, UNC x 2, Kentucky x 2, UCONN x 2, Florida x 2, MSU x 1, Arizona x 1, Syracuse x 1, Arkansas x 1, Maryland x 1, UCLA x 1, Kansas x 1. In that time span EVERY single one of those teams also made it to the championship game multiple times except Maryland. In 22 years, only one of those teams could be considered a real miracle team. And all of those schools are BIG time basketball schools. Only schools not to have won the game in the past 22 years but to have reached it are, Butler x 2, Michigan x 2, Ohio State x 1, Illinois x 1, IU x 1, Memphis x1, Georgia Tech x 1, Utah x 1. So the only schools to ever, EVER appear once in the NC game in the past 22 years are Maryland, Ohio State, Illinois, IU, Memphis, Georgia Tech, and Utah and again, most are HUGE basketball schools.

Get where I'm going with this? Basketball has its elites and few ever challenge that. Butler is quite the exception to that.

 

[koonja]

That **** just doesn't happen though.

I'm not sure you guys comprehend how hard it is to win a NC in basketball or even make it to the Final Four. Since as far back as 1991 (22 NC games), 12 teams have won the title. Duke x 4, UNC x 2, Kentucky x 2, UCONN x 2, Florida x 2, MSU x 1, Arizona x 1, Syracuse x 1, Arkansas x 1, Maryland x 1, UCLA x 1, Kansas x 1. In that time span EVERY single one of those teams also made it to the championship game multiple times except Maryland. In 22 years, only one of those teams could be considered a real miracle team. And all of those schools are BIG time basketball schools. Only schools not to have won the game in the past 22 years but to have reached it are, Butler x 2, Michigan x 2, Ohio State x 1, Illinois x 1, IU x 1, Memphis x1, Georgia Tech x 1, Utah x 1. So the only schools to ever, EVER appear once in the NC game in the past 22 years are Maryland, Ohio State, Illinois, IU, Memphis, Georgia Tech, and Utah and again, most are HUGE basketball schools.

Get where I'm going with this? Basketball has its elites and few ever challenge that. Butler is quite the exception to that.

There's a big difference in first round exits and championships. There's even a big difference between making a final four and winning a championship. When you're in a final four, you have to beat two more teams, which are usually elite teams. I don't think anyone's expecting championships our of ND/Brey, but making a run at the final 4 or even elite 8 isn't unreasonable every once in a while.

Basketball isn't my thing, but I don't think people are complaining because ND doesn't win championships in hoops, but more so because making the elite 8 or final four once in a decade isn't that big of a deal and we haven't done it.

How many teams have made the final four since Brey has been there? I bet it's over 30.

 

[BeauBenken]

There's a big difference in first round exits and championships. There's even a big difference between making a final four and winning a championship. When you're in a final four, you have to beat two more teams, which are usually elite teams. I don't think anyone's expecting championships our of ND/Brey, but making a run at the final 4 or even elite 8 isn't unreasonable every once in a while.

Basketball isn't my thing, but I don't think people are complaining because ND doesn't win championships in hoops, but more so because making the elite 8 or final four once in a decade isn't that big of a deal and we haven't done it.

If this is why everyone else is upset...seriously?

If it isn't a big deal, why does it matter? If it is a big deal, I would think you could understand how it's not so easy.

 

[koonja]

If this is why everyone else is upset...seriously?

If it isn't a big deal, why does it matter? If it is a big deal, I would think you could understand how it's not so easy.

It isn't a big deal because I bet a ton of teams have made elite 8 or final 4 since Brey has been at ND. Count them.

Everyone's upset because Brey can't get ND to do what a lot of teams have been able to do since he's been there.

This is basketball, and I barely care, but I don't think you're getting this, Beau.

 

[gkIrish]

It's very simple. All we want is for this team to overachieve or at least achieve once in a while. They hardly ever play to their seed or win 50/50 games

 

[NCDomer]

Brey is the reason ND makes the tournament consistently. He's a great coach. His teams don't do better in March because the team's athleticism is low. They get away with being collectively unathletic in the BE because BE allows a rougher, banging style of play. This helps eliminate ND's athletic deficiencies.

Now, how do they improve their athleticism? They bring in more athletic recruits. This is much easier said than done. It's not easy recruiting male bball players to ND. The weather sucks, SB isn't anything special, and it's a football school. What it has is a great campus, coach, and education.

With all of that said, the incoming recruits are athletic. They will provide a great idea of what Brey can do with talented athletes.

Brey is the closest thing we have to a Mike Montgomery. Montgomery rarely makes it past the 1st weekend. When he did, he had NBA 1st rounders. In 97/98, he had the Collins twins and Mark Madsen. If we get a few NBA talents (size and athletic-wise), we'll make a deep run under Brey.

 

[STLDomer]

From Lou on BGI

In terms of financial commitment toward basketball, this year, Notre Dame ($4.4 million) ranked 13th of 15 Big East teams (ahead of Rutgers and South Florida.)
Next year, Notre Dame would be essentially be tied for 13th of 15 teams (ahead of NC State and $3,000 more than Clemson)
If Notre Dame bumped up to $7 million, there would only be 3-4 teams ahead of it in the ACC.
Louisville and Duke are both over $13 million with Syracuse around $7.5 million.
Now, money can't buy effort, which at times seemed lacking in the tourney game against Iowa State, and it's not the end-all, be-all toward success. I'm just posting this because it kind of speaks to how and why ND is sometimes just perceived as not as totally committed to the men's basketball program the way it is in football, whereas a Duke will spare no expense toward basketball.

I don't think we will be "throwing money" at any coach anytime soon, including Brad Stevens and Shaka Smart

 

[texbender]

I like Brey and he fits well at ND. Didint see but half of last night's game...had to be their worst game all season. Actually it seemed to me that late in season they just werent clickin. Atkins has been a no show in many games, and the play of Cooley too inconsistent. I think what you see is what you get.

 

[Buster Bluth]

It's very simple. All we want is for this team to overachieve or at least achieve once in a while.

Last year?

 

[gkIrish]

Last year?

Um, they lost to Xavier in the first round and were a six seed?

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Mike Brey is 5-5 as the better seed, including 2-5 since 2007. That's completely pathetic. Those are games he should win every time.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Um, they lost to Xavier in the first round and were a six seed?

That team wasn't even supposed to finish above .500, yet went 13-5 in the Big East, beat five ranked teams (including #1 Syracuse), and finished a respectable 22-12.

And they were handling Xavier pretty well until late game heroics and an absolutely bullshit call from the ref. They didn't even play poorly that game.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I get it though, people want to see some March success from the Irish. I completely agree they have underperformed. I don't think Brey is a great guy to lead the program and I don't even think he's the best guy they "could get."

Notre Dame isn't supporting the program as much as they should and Brey isn't a great recruiter (instead an elite development coach).

I think some of this is on Swarbrick too. It's his job to lift the program, too.

 

[returnofthemack]

I don't expect ND to make a Final 4, an Elite 8 appearance would bring tears to my eyes. But Brey specializes in losing in the first round. Don't try to tell me Brey couldn't plan for the other team because it was a bad matchup. Are you F***ing kidding me? They're all bad match ups - when you lose EVERY FREAKING YEAR IN THE FIRST TWO ROUNDS - it's indicative of a problem.

 

[returnofthemack]

My only regret is that I missed the vbucks betting period. I would have won a lot.

 

[returnofthemack]

That team wasn't even supposed to finish above .500, yet went 13-5 in the Big East, beat five ranked teams (including #1 Syracuse), and finished a respectable 22-12.

And they were handling Xavier pretty well until late game heroics and an absolutely bullshit call from the ref. They didn't even play poorly that game.

hahaha are you joking? I don't give a damn where they were supposed to finish. They were a top 25 team, and in case you forgot, they were losing to Xavier quite spectacularly so the ref thing doesn't even matter (bull$hit call, but besides the point - they should not have been losing)

 

[NDinL.A.]

hahaha are you joking? I don't give a damn where they were supposed to finish. They were a top 25 team, and in case you forgot, they were losing to Xavier quite spectacularly so the ref thing doesn't even matter (bull$hit call, but besides the point - they should not have been losing)

Follow the thread. He was responding to someone who said ND never overachieves, which just isn't true. They don't overachieve in the tourney, but they overachieve quite a bit overall.

 

[NCDomer]

Those wanting Brey gone would fire Few from Gonzaga too. Few took Zaga to new heights, yet has early round exits every year. Brey has ND consistently in the tournament. That's the kind of program ND has. If it makes a Sweet 16 with 5+ tournaments every decade, the coach should keep his job.