**Notre Dame Combine Invitees: Results & Analysis**

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koonja

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What program(s) are some of you thinking of that take average athletes and make them fast and more athletic?

I'll name programs that do not recruit as well as ND, but are noticeably more athletic in my opinion:

Oklahoma State, Oregon, UCLA, Clemson, FSU (although you could argue they recruit as well as ND), V-tech, Texas A&M, Georgia, Mississippi Sate, Ole Miss, K-state (this year), Miami, Arizona, maybe North Carolina?
 
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I'll name programs that do not recruit as well as ND, but are noticeably more athletic in my opinion:

Oklahoma State, Oregon, UCLA, Clemson, FSU (although you could argue they recruit as well as ND), V-tech, Texas A&M, Georgia, Mississippi Sate, Ole Miss, K-state (this year), Miami, Arizona, maybe North Carolina?

You watched HS film on each of those teams recruits?
 

ND NYC

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I'll name programs that do not recruit as well as ND, but are noticeably more athletic in my opinion:

Oklahoma State, Oregon, UCLA, Clemson, FSU (although you could argue they recruit as well as ND), V-tech, Texas A&M, Georgia, Mississippi Sate, Ole Miss, K-state (this year), Miami, Arizona, maybe North Carolina?

and what were their W-L records last year?
 
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koonja

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and what were their W-L records last year?

I'm not talking W/L. There's way too much that goes into that. I'm talking about athleticism, which is a direct relation of recruiting and S/C.
 
K

koonja

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You watched HS film on each of those teams recruits?

Not sure where you're going with this, but obviously no, I did not. To be fair, I selected teams that typically recruit worse than ND. Given, some teams target different type of players, but there's not a guy in the world with the free time it would take to break down every player.
 
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PraetorianND

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I'll name programs that do not recruit as well as ND, but are noticeably more athletic in my opinion:

Oklahoma State, Oregon, UCLA, Clemson, FSU (although you could argue they recruit as well as ND), V-tech, Texas A&M, Georgia, Mississippi Sate, Ole Miss, K-state (this year), Miami, Arizona, maybe North Carolina?

I agree with FSU, Miami and UGA (all recruit as well as ND). The rest I don't think are more athletic than ND. Also, Oregon is deceiving because they have a few guys who are just outrageous, everyone else isn't that astounding (great system). I think the same can be said of Arizona, and Oklahoma St. UNC has a bunch of NFL guys that creates the appearance of a ton of athleticism, but really the average guy at UNC is nothing to write home about. TAMU there may be an argument for but they recruit well too.
 
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koonja

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All Weis guys. Unfortunately, due to Anzalone's defection, this isn't an area where Kelly has recruited well. We'll have to hope Grace, Deeb and some transplants (Councell, Randolph, etc.) turn out to be athletic upgrades.



Motta's an average athlete (though the trio of Smith, Slaughter and Motta was pretty solid). Going forward, we'll have Shumate, Redfield, Baratti, Farley and Collinsworth. Can't really complaint about athleticism there.



Couple points-- I'd argue that: (1) the impact of the S&C program is most noticeable in the trenches; and (2) a bunch of factors combined to undermine our ST in 2012.

2nd and 3rd string DBs tend to be important ST players, because they've generally got the best combination of athleticism and tackling ability. Well, we whiffed on DBs in the 2012 class, and then we had a rash of injuries in our secondary. We barely had enough bodies for ST, let alone the caliber of athletes needed to excel. As Kelly has stated several times, ST should improve considerably when the 2013 class hits campus.

So what? They've had 3 years with Longo.

Agree, but that's a tribute to Kelly's recruiting, not Longo's work. They're the 'future'.

Eh, I don't know about that. You can't hide athleticism on special teams, and there are so many players that have an impact on STs, that I think its the best way to narrow in on how 'athletic' a team is. Although, you address that issue with your follow up paragraph, so kudos for that. It's a great point.

I don't have the energy to be on this thread, taking grenades by myself, lol. I'll leave this as my last comment on the issue. Agree to disagree with some of you. I am happy to have Longo, as I've said earlier.
 
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Not sure where you're going with this, but obviously no, I did not. To be fair, I selected teams that typically recruit worse than ND. Given, some teams target different type of players, but there's not a guy in the world with the free time it would take to break down every player.

I'm saying if S&C can change a player, what team is doing it?

You gave me teams that "recruit worse than ND" but are more athletic. How do you know that is related to their S&C if you never saw them in play in HS?
 

PANDFAN

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you talking bout my strength and conditioning coach

you talking bout my strength and conditioning coach

to-crying1.jpg
 

Whiskeyjack

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So what? They've had 3 years with Longo.

I thought we came to a general agreement earlier that certain aspects of athleticism (namely, speed) can only be developed so far; I think the type of athleticism you're looking for has to be recruited (which seems to be happening anyway).

But consider our OL for a moment. Kelly's OL is much more athletic than Weis' ever were. Our guys pull and block in space very well.

I don't have the energy to be on this thread, taking grenades by myself, lol. I'll leave this as my last comment on the issue. Agree to disagree with some of you.

I hope you haven't considered any of my posts "grenades". This has been a good discussion.
 

PANDFAN

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maybe we give him a call??? i kid i kid

maybe we give him a call??? i kid i kid

amir carlisle ‏@amir_carlisle
Everybody go follow my dad @DuaneCarlisle one of the best strength coaches in football!
 
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koonja

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I thought we came to a general agreement earlier that certain aspects of athleticism (namely, speed) can only be developed so far; I think the type of athleticism you're looking for has to be recruited (which seems to be happening anyway).

But consider our OL for a moment. Kelly's OL is much more athletic than Weis' ever were. Our guys pull and block in space very well.



I hope you haven't considered any of my posts "grenades". This has been a good discussion.

Not at all. In fact, I've tried to rep most of you guys to show there's no bad blood here, but it says I can't (I think I repped everyone who posted in the 'whats your twitter handle' thread, and they're still fresh so I'm out of reps for a lot of you).

Arguments make the off-season more bearable, lol.
 

Rocket89

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So what? They've had 3 years with Longo.

That's precisely the point. S&C coach isn't going to turn "average" athletes in to great athletes.

I have no doubt ND could go out and recruit better athletes. But they'd also be sacrificing size, skill, and potential.

I have no doubt we could sign a super athletic 5'5" corner with 4.3 speed and a 215 pound defensive end with blazing quickness and agility but can't put on weight.

Maybe some other teams are doing things like this and are more "athletic." But being more athletic isn't the be all end all. A lot of the teams you mentioned above may have better athletes but they also get pushed around and lose a lot of football games too (oh hi there 2012 Miami!).

The only thing you can do is somehow prove that teams like Okie State and UCLA are recruiting average athletes and then making them more athletic. Good luck with that.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Things that are overrated: Stars, SEC, Cult of the Personality, our opinion, speed for speed's sake.

Things that are underrated, job turning ND into a dominant program, NDinFL's understanding of the goals of weight training, the fact that bowl games are one game seasons, that if a coach preps a player wrong, he may look like he physically is getting pushed around, team work and other intangibles.
 

NDinFL

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IDK what that has to do with Longo. He's literally no part of the article, but greyhamer90, I think we finally found out who IS upset, lol.

How doesn't that make sense?

It goes into detail about different methods of S&C

"But as the regime of Charlie Weis wore on, it was painfully obvious that even though Weis and Strength and Conditioning coach Ruben Mendoza were conditioning their players to be tough and nasty, primarily by bulking them up to be able to punish the opposing team, the problem was that Weis and his coaching staff weren’t using an offensive or defensive philosophy that utilized those types of players. This was the most apparent on the offensive line."

"Now to Notre Dame and Ruben Mendoza. That name again. YES, Ruben Mendoza was an assistant strength coach at Clemson under Joey Batson. He went to Old Miss to coach there, then became the director of Strength and Conditioning at Notre Dame during the Weis years. Brian Kelly wisely replaced him when he took the head job. I challenge those interested to do a little research to find out why."

"I did a little surfing and found some interesting info on other schools' strength coaches. Some that caught my eye were Alabama, LSU, Notre Dame, and FSU. The thing I noticed about the mentioned Southern schools was the fact ALL of their strength coaches adhere to the philosophy of Gayle Hatch, a former director of S and C at LSU and head coach of the Olympic weightlifting team. Notre Dame, on the other hand, until recently was led by Ruben Mendoza, whose philosophy is much different. That name sound familiar? Stay with me."

"Clemson football needs change. The fact Dabo Swinney retained Joey Batson is proof for me that he doesn't get it. Even moreso than his offensive staff(double entendre), Batson is KILLING this team. Folks, a mule is STRONG. I know plenty of overweight people who are strong. What do you want on your football team? The Gayle Hatch school gives you tigers. The Louie Simmons/Batson/Mendoza methods give you elephants."

Just a few excerpts, for those too lazy to read.

Just because it doesn't actually have Longo's name in the article doesn't mean he isn't involved.

Did I connect the dots for ya? ;)
 

FDNYIrish1

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That article is misleading. The best strength and conditioning programs for football are a hybrid between powerlifting and explosive lifting including variations of the Olympic lifts, plyometrics, dynamic barbell work, med ball training, contrast training, accommodating resistance using bands and chains, etc. To train athletes using Louie Simmons west side conjugate method is silly. Louie trains record setting powerlifters, not football players. His methods have been modified by a brilliant strength coach by the name of Joe Defranco however. To assume that a strength coach is using solely Olympic lifts is also silly. They are taxing and the learning curve is huge. Which is why most good coaches use the hang variations. Easier to teach and a closer correspondence to activities on the field. A good program should include a strength base, power and explosiveness, and power endurance. Football is an alactic-aerobic sport, you need to train energy systems accordingly. Longo undoubtedly has a great understanding of this based on watching his videos and results on the field. He has figured out how to improve the different modalities concurrently. Sorry for ranting, I hope this made a little bit of sense. If you haven't figured out, I'm a big Louie Simmons fan :)
 

NDinFL

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As an aside, and mods feel free to separate all the Longo stuff, but I'm not "upset" kuehnja.

It's just ridiculous to say that Longo is overrated.... As in the same way someone once said Alford was an overrated recruiter
 

phork

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Anyone remember the plethora of hamstring injuries from the Weis era? Seems like we might have been hamstrung with Mendoza.
 

NDinFL

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Anyone remember the plethora of hamstring injuries from the Weis era? Seems like we might have been hamstrung with Mendoza.

This.

And the fact that ND didn't have the 4th quarter stamina to get by UConn or Syracuse
 

North Buffalo Irish

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Every panelist on ATH would rather "take a risk" on Mathieu than Te'o.

I love how no one has mentioned that Te'o's 10-yard split was faster than Kuechly's, or that his shuttle and 3-cone were among the best at the combine.
 

NDinFL

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I'll name programs that do not recruit as well as ND, but are noticeably more athletic in my opinion:

Oklahoma State, Oregon, UCLA, Clemson, FSU (although you could argue they recruit as well as ND), V-tech, Texas A&M, Georgia, Mississippi Sate, Ole Miss, K-state (this year), Miami, Arizona, maybe North Carolina?

Just caught that one...

You mean the same Miami team that ND stomped into the ground?
 

irishff1014

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Sounds pretty confident

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Manti Te'o does not make out of the first round.</p>— Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/306794597684744193">February 27, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

nice piece by Herm and Teddy on espn a little bit ago. Both said that he is a first rounder. They admitted yes he doesn't have the top things you need but he is a solid player that later drafts teams like to see. He is a player that is smart on the field and that goes a long ways.
 

phork

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If he isn't gone in the first round that means teams are concerned about his "sexuality". Whoever gets him is going to steal him.
 

Anchorman

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Anyone remember the plethora of hamstring injuries from the Weis era? Seems like we might have been hamstrung with Mendoza.

No different under Longo (Floyd, Rudolph, etc.). Also should be careful about trying to establish causation with such a small sample. As an example, I'd say we had a seemingly strange run of achilles' injuries.
 

tko

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Every panelist on ATH would rather "take a risk" on Mathieu than Te'o.

I love how no one has mentioned that Te'o's 10-yard split was faster than Kuechly's, or that his shuttle and 3-cone were among the best at the combine.

Just sad
 

Hammer Of The Gods

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Newbie here but as they say in the world of talk radio " long time listener first time caller" so this is officially my first post but I've been reading for s couple years. So, here's my two cents. Teo's forty sucked. But it was techniqually flayed. He will be able to shave a tenth of by correcting his start. No clue who did his combine prep but they will take notice of that and correct it before ND's pro day. The bench press test is worthless but there really isn't a better option or a "easier" option for teams to evaluate upper body strength. I would prefer to see how much bar speed they could generate for 2 or 3 reps to represent explosiveness in upper body strength. A simple way to estimate a max bench, squat or dead lift is to do this equation weight x reps x .0333 + weight....I'm a strength coach and competitve powerlifter
 
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