**Notre Dame Combine Invitees: Results & Analysis**

[North Buffalo Irish]

Re: kuehnja on Longo

Never heard the saying, "You can't teach speed"?

Expecting a S&C coach to significantly alter 40 times is asinine.

 

[koonja]

Re: kuehnja on Longo

Never heard the saying, "You can't teach speed"?

Expecting a S&C coach to significantly alter 40 times is asinine.

Just because you found a cliche doesn't make this true. You absolutely can have workouts that increase agility, speed, explosion, and train the muscles to be fast twitch.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

It is not the job of the college strength and conditioning coach to teach proper 40 technique IMO. Manti was training at IMG in Florida for the combine, which is where he should have been taught the intricacies of the 40. Positive shin angle, forward lean, stride length, etc are all tricks to cheat your time. Like stated earlier, the ten yard split is the most important part. A disappointing time no doubt, but there are factors that could have had an impact. The shuttle is more football relevant than straight line speed anyway.

I am really surprised at Mottas bench though. I'm 40 years old and can do quite a few more reps than him. I hope it works out for all of the guys.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I had a guy with an exercise phys background look at this thread . . .

 

[koonja]

It is not the job of the college strength and conditioning coach to teach proper 40 technique IMO. Manti was training at IMG in Florida for the combine, which is where he should have been taught the intricacies of the 40. Positive shin angle, forward lean, stride length, etc are all tricks to cheat your time. Like stated earlier, the ten yard split is the most important part. A disappointing time no doubt, but there are factors that could have had an impact. The shuttle is more football relevant than straight line speed anyway.

I am really surprised at Mottas bench though. I'm 40 years old and can do quite a few more reps than him. I hope it works out for all of the guys.

I'm not knocking Longo for the poor 40 times. That just got me on the subject. People are always saying 'wait til Longo gets a hold of him' assuming these guys are getting bigger, faster, stronger, and I agree that conditioning is much better than the Weis days, I still don't think we're close to a 'fast team' yet, though. I don't think Longo is bad. I think he deserves the ND S&C job, I just don't think there's anything to say he's an elite SC coach.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Part of the problem is the superman effect. It is all cult of the personality. We have to build them up to superhuman proportions, and then we are disappointed, and immediately struck by the best and the brightest from elsewhere, forgetting that is some compilation of 120 other schools . . .

 

[PANDFAN]

What do you guys think BJax will run next year at the combine? I'm thinking in the 4.5 range.

big difference here is that he has track background...which is why someone like goodwin from texas was a blazer..but on field production 20+ receptions...BJ will do very well in the combine ....technique is key

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

He's allegedly one of the fastest guys on the team. Ran track with the Atkinson brothers and one other player who's name currently escapes me.

I'd be shocked if it wasn't at least in the 4.4 range. Might end up lower.

+1. Also think Davaris will put up really good numbers as well.

Bennett had this to say yesterday...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Buddy on the NFL network said ND guys aren't guna wow you at the combine just are hard workers.. Let me run the 40 right now ill wow you lol</p>— Bennett Jackson Jr. (@B_Jax2) <a href="https://twitter.com/B_Jax2/status/306455209138339840">February 26, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[rocket66]

The only bright side of seeing these poor combine results is realizing that the Irish are reloading with much more speed and athleticism at the positions lost (besides ILB). They lost these senior leaders, but I'll trade that for more speed on the field. I know Toma isn't at the combine, but also consider the change in offense having Neal at that position as well. It's going to be exciting.

 

[Rocket89]

I'm not knocking Longo for the poor 40 times. That just got me on the subject. People are always saying 'wait til Longo gets a hold of him' assuming these guys are getting bigger, faster, stronger, and I agree that conditioning is much better than the Weis days, I still don't think we're close to a 'fast team' yet, though. I don't think Longo is bad. I think he deserves the ND S&C job, I just don't think there's anything to say he's an elite SC coach.

Define elite.

Is he the absolute best in the business? No, I really doubt that. Has Longo been one of the best over the past few years? Absolutely.

Does that make him elite? I don't know, you can use whatever word you want but he deserves to be in the discussion.

He took an out of shape, lazy, and unaccountable program and did a complete 180 with them within 3 years. You're saying it's not about 40 times (judging by the rest of your comments, yeah it kind of is) but I don't know how you can remark that there's NOTHING to say he's an elite SC coach---or in the discussion. It's like you have an ax to grind or something.

Now, some might say that things were so bad before he arrived that he's merely brought the program back to normal BCS levels. Okay, I'll buy that to a certain degree but there's plenty of evidence that Longo has done an amazing job.

We can bemoan Motta's results at the combine (would any of us been surprised with his results 15 months ago though?) but we can also turn right around and praise the staff (which includes Longo) for Zeke having a great senior season.

How about Te'o slimming down and almost winning the Heisman and a jabillion awards? Surely Longo deserves some praise there, no?

Or how about working with Louis Nix and turning him from a severely overweight freshman in to perhaps the country's best nose guard?

What about packing 30 pounds on Danny Spond and transitioning him from a high school quarterback in to an athletic outside linebacker?

What about helping Harrison Smith turn in to a wandering safety in to a 1st round pick?

TJ turning from a scrawny receiver in to a tough outside wideout with good blocking skills?

That skinny Eifert receiver who bulked up and just had a great combine and set school records?

What about improving the O-line? Back-to-back 2,000 yard rushing seasons? 48 rushing touchdowns since 2011? Shoot, Longo should get a medal and 30 for 30 documentary for playing a major factor in turning Golic in to a serviceable right guard.

Clearly Longo doesn't deserve all the credit in all these examples but they are some that highlight how he's done some great work in 3 years.

By and large you recruit speed. Longo can help a little bit but in the vast majority of cases we know who is fast and who isn't from an early point in these players careers. We knew Motta and Te'o weren't fast, so I don't know why some are laying this at Longo's feet.

It seems like you're either not paying attention, have something personal against Longo, or the praise for Longo here at IE has been so overwhelming that you're playing the role of contrarian just for the sake of it. I suspect it's the last one?

 

[irishpat183]

Define elite.

Is he the absolute best in the business? No, I really doubt that. Has Longo been one of the best over the past few years? Absolutely.

Does that make him elite? I don't know, you can use whatever word you want but he deserves to be in the discussion.

He took an out of shape, lazy, and unaccountable program and did a complete 180 with them within 3 years. You're saying it's not about 40 times (judging by the rest of your comments, yeah it kind of is) but I don't know how you can remark that there's NOTHING to say he's an elite SC coach---or in the discussion. It's like you have an ax to grind or something.

Now, some might say that things were so bad before he arrived that he's merely brought the program back to normal BCS levels. Okay, I'll buy that to a certain degree but there's plenty of evidence that Longo has done an amazing job.

We can bemoan Motta's results at the combine (would any of us been surprised with his results 15 months ago though?) but we can also turn right around and praise the staff (which includes Longo) for Zeke having a great senior season.

How about Te'o slimming down and almost winning the Heisman and a jabillion awards? Surely Longo deserves some praise there, no?

Or how about working with Louis Nix and turning him from a severely overweight freshman in to perhaps the country's best nose guard?

What about packing 30 pounds on Danny Spond and transitioning him from a high school quarterback in to an athletic outside linebacker?

What about helping Harrison Smith turn in to a wandering safety in to a 1st round pick?

TJ turning from a scrawny receiver in to a tough outside wideout with good blocking skills?

That skinny Eifert receiver who bulked up and just had a great combine and set school records?

What about improving the O-line? Back-to-back 2,000 yard rushing seasons? 48 rushing touchdowns since 2011? Shoot, Longo should get a medal and 30 for 30 documentary for playing a major factor in turning Golic in to a serviceable right guard.

Clearly Longo doesn't deserve all the credit in all these examples but they are some that highlight how he's done some great work in 3 years.

By and large you recruit speed. Longo can help a little bit but in the vast majority of cases we know who is fast and who isn't from an early point in these players careers. We knew Motta and Te'o weren't fast, so I don't know why some are laying this at Longo's feet.

It seems like you're either not paying attention, have something personal against Longo, or the praise for Longo here at IE has been so overwhelming that you're playing the role of contrarian just for the sake of it. I suspect it's the last one?

So he did his job........What makes him "elite"?

Name another top program that allows their players to be lazy and not in shape. It's his job.

Again, we give way to much credit to him. He's done a fine job, but at the end of the day, he hands them a program to follow and they do or they won't play. Once a kid is at this level, he either gets it or he doesn't.

Like you said, speed needs to be recruited. You can get a little faster with programs, but most of the burners out there are natural runners that can get outta bed and run a 4.4 (I knew a kid in high school that never touched a weight and was an incredible athlete).

All I'm saying is that Longo's just a S&C coach. He's not a god. He could be replaced with someone next week from another top program and none of us would see a difference.


But I'm happy with where the program is moving. Longo's job is much eaiser when you're brininging in the Jaylon Smith's of the world.



(3000 post)

 

[koonja]

Define elite.

Is he the absolute best in the business? No, I really doubt that. Has Longo been one of the best over the past few years? Absolutely.

Does that make him elite? I don't know, you can use whatever word you want but he deserves to be in the discussion.

He took an out of shape, lazy, and unaccountable program and did a complete 180 with them within 3 years. You're saying it's not about 40 times (judging by the rest of your comments, yeah it kind of is) but I don't know how you can remark that there's NOTHING to say he's an elite SC coach---or in the discussion. It's like you have an ax to grind or something.

Now, some might say that things were so bad before he arrived that he's merely brought the program back to normal BCS levels. Okay, I'll buy that to a certain degree but there's plenty of evidence that Longo has done an amazing job.

We can bemoan Motta's results at the combine (would any of us been surprised with his results 15 months ago though?) but we can also turn right around and praise the staff (which includes Longo) for Zeke having a great senior season.

How about Te'o slimming down and almost winning the Heisman and a jabillion awards? Surely Longo deserves some praise there, no?

Or how about working with Louis Nix and turning him from a severely overweight freshman in to perhaps the country's best nose guard?

What about packing 30 pounds on Danny Spond and transitioning him from a high school quarterback in to an athletic outside linebacker?

What about helping Harrison Smith turn in to a wandering safety in to a 1st round pick?

TJ turning from a scrawny receiver in to a tough outside wideout with good blocking skills?

That skinny Eifert receiver who bulked up and just had a great combine and set school records?

What about improving the O-line? Back-to-back 2,000 yard rushing seasons? 48 rushing touchdowns since 2011? Shoot, Longo should get a medal and 30 for 30 documentary for playing a major factor in turning Golic in to a serviceable right guard.

Clearly Longo doesn't deserve all the credit in all these examples but they are some that highlight how he's done some great work in 3 years.

By and large you recruit speed. Longo can help a little bit but in the vast majority of cases we know who is fast and who isn't from an early point in these players careers. We knew Motta and Te'o weren't fast, so I don't know why some are laying this at Longo's feet.

It seems like you're either not paying attention, have something personal against Longo, or the praise for Longo here at IE has been so overwhelming that you're playing the role of contrarian just for the sake of it. I suspect it's the last one?

I just typed up a monster response, and when I submitted it, my internet timed out *sigh*. I have zero bias against Longo. I don't know anything about health and nutrition, have no family in the business, never met Longo, never heard him speak, I don't even know what he looks like. Essentially, if you've ever been to cold stone, Longo is a 'love it', but I haven't seen anything to say you 'gotta have it'. We're still not a FAST team. You can select a few guys, and sure, they're maybe 4.4 guys, but if you could find some quantifiable measure to select 'fast team' no way we'd be in the top 15. Probably around top 25 IMO (again, no way to measure this, it's all subjective, just my opinion).

 

[irishpat183]

I just typed up a monster response, and when I submitted it, my internet timed out *sigh*. I have zero bias against Longo. I don't know anything about health and nutrition, have no family in the business, never met Longo, never heard him speak, I don't even know what he looks like. Essentially, if you've ever been to cold stone, Longo is a 'love it', but I haven't seen anything to say you 'gotta have it'. We're still not a FAST team. You can select a few guys, and sure, they're maybe 4.4 guys, but if you could find some quantifiable measure to select 'fast team' no way we'd be in the top 15. Probably around top 25 IMO (again, no way to measure this, it's all subjective, just my opinion).

Agree 100%. We're not there yet.

The Bama game was enough evidence of that, even for the biggest of homers.

Hell, I had to let my emotions cool and step back and say "Man, we're just not on that level yet" after weeks of convincing myself that we could hang.

 

[GowerND11]

One thing I noticed not discussed is the implementation of the training table by Kelly & Co. It has certainly helped our players manage their weight and intake the proper foods. It isn't THE reason for any success we have had on the field, but it is certainly a cog that has helped the machine and will help going forward.

 

[IrishLion]

I think Longo has done a fine job, but I also think that some of you are giving him a bit too much credit for on-field results. Sure, winning the 4th quarter goes back to Longo, but not completely. Motta had a decent season, but not because Longo turned him into a good football player (as evidenced by his "measurables")... that was because of coaching.

Rocket mentions that Longo should win an award for turning Golic into a serviceable guard, but really most credit should go to Heistand for coaching him up on the field, to o-line chemistry, and to a remarkable season of guys staying healthy. Golic would've been the type of guy to work out and prepare physically, regardless of who the S&C coach is.

Longo has done a tremendous job, but developing strength, speed, explosiveness, durability and conditioning is only half of the battle (maybe even less; an inferior athlete can still win with superior mental and physical technique, regardless of measureables).

 

[IrishLax]

A couple things:

-There is no denying that Longo is better than Mendoza / that the team is better off than they were under the Weis regime.
-This team no longer folds in the 4th quarter and is both physically and mentally in very good game shape.
-There have been a lot of guys who made gigantic leaps in production in the 1-2 years after Longo came on board... coincidence? Maybe, because it could also have something to do with better position coaches.
-Players, especially on the OL, under the previous regime were size/strength freaks and could put up huge number but couldn't actually play well. Longo seems to have gone the other direction.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

The whole "don't fold in the 4th Qtr anymore" thing could be Longo, could be Diaco, or could be both. A lot of that is on the D and the Front 7.

 

[Rocket89]

So he did his job........What makes him "elite"?

Name another top program that allows their players to be lazy and not in shape. It's his job.

Again, we give way to much credit to him. He's done a fine job, but at the end of the day, he hands them a program to follow and they do or they won't play. Once a kid is at this level, he either gets it or he doesn't.

Like you said, speed needs to be recruited. You can get a little faster with programs, but most of the burners out there are natural runners that can get outta bed and run a 4.4 (I knew a kid in high school that never touched a weight and was an incredible athlete).

All I'm saying is that Longo's just a S&C coach. He's not a god. He could be replaced with someone next week from another top program and none of us would see a difference.


But I'm happy with where the program is moving. Longo's job is much eaiser when you're brininging in the Jaylon Smith's of the world.



(3000 post)

He did his job? That's your response?

I know a lot of people love Longo but when you say that it sounds like you can't give him any credit. I hope you don't think of Kelly that way.

"Oh, we went 12-1, well BK is just doing his job isn't he?"

Longo isn't as important as Kelly, that much is obvious. But saying "he's just doing his job" and ignoring all the examples of the great work he's done with players, and more importantly, the relationship he has with Brian Kelly as the '3rd coordinator' seems silly to me.

I don't think he's a god (really, who is saying that?) but he matters. He's part of the staff that just went 12-1---that matters.

 

[Rocket89]

I just typed up a monster response, and when I submitted it, my internet timed out *sigh*. I have zero bias against Longo. I don't know anything about health and nutrition, have no family in the business, never met Longo, never heard him speak, I don't even know what he looks like. Essentially, if you've ever been to cold stone, Longo is a 'love it', but I haven't seen anything to say you 'gotta have it'. We're still not a FAST team. You can select a few guys, and sure, they're maybe 4.4 guys, but if you could find some quantifiable measure to select 'fast team' no way we'd be in the top 15. Probably around top 25 IMO (again, no way to measure this, it's all subjective, just my opinion).

Here's what's not adding up.

You haven't seen anything? Anything at all? Nothing? That's pretty hard to wrap my head around.

I agree we're not a fast team (at least in comparison to Alabama) but we've improved over the past few years, and the younger players are going to be faster.

At any rate, it's not Longo who is going to make this team faster. That's almost all on recruiting the right players with the right genes. You can't teach speed but here you are holding it against Longo for not teaching speed to his players. That's what is not adding up.

 

[koonja]

Here's what's not adding up.

You haven't seen anything? Anything at all? Nothing? That's pretty hard to wrap my head around.

I agree we're not a fast team (at least in comparison to Alabama) but we've improved over the past few years, and the younger players are going to be faster.

At any rate, it's not Longo who is going to make this team faster. That's almost all on recruiting the right players with the right genes. You can't teach speed but here you are holding it against Longo for not teaching speed to his players. That's what is not adding up.

Do you read my posts? I've said multiple times now, that our conditioning seems better in the 4th quarter.

Every athlete that comes into ND or any other program, has a physical limit. They can only get so fast, but don't tell me certain training techniques do not increase speed. I've seen first hand players get faster because of a workout program. And it's not just speed, it's agility and lateral movement as well. Every player can get more athletic to a certain degree.

As a team, I give more credit to BK and Diaco for coaching players to be in the right position. I do not see our team flying around the ball and looking athletic, unless we're playing Navy or someone of that level.

 

[Rocket89]

Do you read my posts? I've said multiple times now, that our conditioning seems better in the 4th quarter.

Every athlete that comes into ND or any other program, has a physical limit. They can only get so fast, but don't tell me certain training techniques do not increase speed. I've seen first hand players get faster because of a workout program. And it's not just speed, it's agility and lateral movement as well. Every player can get more athletic to a certain degree.

As a team, I give more credit to BK and Diaco for coaching players to be in the right position. I do not see our team flying around the ball and looking athletic, unless we're playing Navy or someone of that level.

Certain techniques do help, but not to any large degree.

You're right to give more credit to BK and Diaco, no qualms there, but that doesn't mean Longo doesn't deserve a lot too. I see a team looking much more athletic---you don't, oh well. We have a lot of room for improvement but the speed/athleticism will get better with the right players, not (largely) because of what Longo is or is not doing.

 

[koonja]

Certain techniques do help, but not to any large degree.

You're right to give more credit to BK and Diaco, no qualms there, but that doesn't mean Longo doesn't deserve a lot too. I see a team looking much more athletic---you don't, oh well. We have a lot of room for improvement but the speed/athleticism will get better with the right players, not (largely) because of what Longo is or is not doing.

Agreed. My rant(s) are more about getting the people who say 'oh boy, just wait til Longo gets this kid' to cool it. If there was a 'spin the wheel and you can end up with any of the 120 D1 S&C coaches' I would never do it with Longo being ours. I think he's better than most, but I don't think he has some next-level coach who is ahead of the game. I do think there are schools that take recruiting classes similar to ours and we're about par for the course as it pertains to matching up with those schools on 'team speed'.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Sounds pretty confident

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Manti Te'o does not make out of the first round.</p>— Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/306794597684744193">February 27, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[ND NYC]

like someone said above...Longo is not a track and field coach.

ps if 40's were all that mattered why isnt the NFL littered with world class sprinters and such?

this is getting exhausting.
we go 12-0 reg season, get to the natty...and all of a sudden our S+C coach is no good b/c manit and motta run 4.8 40's?

c'mon guys....

 

[koonja]

like someone said above...Longo is not a track and field coach.

ps if 40's were all that mattered why isnt the NFL littered with world class sprinters and such?

this is getting exhausting.
we go 12-0 reg season, get to the natty...and all of a sudden our S+C coach is no good b/c manit and motta run 4.8 40's?

c'mon guys....

I don't think anyone said any of that. Just that anyone who thinks he's devised a world-beater S/C program should pump the brakes, grab some popcorn, and take a look at Alabama's players for a second.

 

[irishpat183]

like someone said above...Longo is not a track and field coach.

ps if 40's were all that mattered why isnt the NFL littered with world class sprinters and such?

this is getting exhausting.
we go 12-0 reg season, get to the natty...and all of a sudden our S+C coach is no good b/c manit and motta run 4.8 40's?

c'mon guys....

Nobody said that.

I'm simply saying that Longo can't work miracles and he's not worthy of the "wait til longo gets ahold of him" line that I hear with EVERY recruit.

 

[irishpat183]

I don't think anyone said any of that. Just that anyone who thinks he's devised a world-beater S/C program should pump the brakes, grab some popcorn, and take a look at Alabama's players for a second.

Right on

 

[koonja]

Right on

Great minds think a like... And apparently so do average ones! Lol, just messing around.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Lots of strawmen getting knocked down here.

I don't think anyone said any of that. Just that anyone who thinks he's devised a world-beater S/C program should pump the brakes, grab some popcorn, and take a look at Alabama's players for a second.

Who has ever said this? I can't recall anyone claiming that Longo is "the best in the biz", or something like that.

I'm simply saying that Longo can't work miracles and he's not worthy of the "wait til longo gets ahold of him" line that I hear with EVERY recruit.

Speaking of other things no one said.

And how is "wait 'til Longo gets ahold of him" undeserved praise? We've got a legitimate BCS-caliber S & C program now. For recruits who have a good frame, but are physically undeveloped, "wait 'til Longo gets ahold of him" is a fair way of saying "I don't think he's close to his physical ceiling yet."

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

Who's better than Longo...J/w.