Meteors and UFOs

nlroma1o

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I completely agree and can understamd why national security and maintaining a stable society is the number one priority. I will even say that I am pefectly fine with the gov telling us that these thngs don't exist so that they dont create mass hysteria...

But.... Whoa...

The gov basically just assummed that whoever or whatever UFOs are, they aren't going to bother us.... Seems like a stretch...

I hope they are right.
 

RDU Irish

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Pretty sweet, OMM. Couldn't rep you since I need to spread it around.

Can't decide if the next logical step in this conversation is toward bigfoot or ghosts.
 

Old Man Mike

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Well.... despite having volunteered to be archival custodian of the files of one of the world's formerly-famous bigfoot/yeti researchers [I did this because I refuse to stand idly by and watch unique cultural collections be thrown into the dumpster just because their contents are academically-unpopular], I am no expert on the so-called ABSMs.

I didn't really think much about "ghosts" either until my brother and sister-in-law purchased a historically-important house in Wheeling, WV with some occasional spectacular poltergeist activity and even an occasional apparition. I've never seen/heard any of that myself, despite wishing to, but they have had dozens of such events, and knowing my brother VERY well as a real hard sell, I can do nothing but credit the phenomenon.

All that stuff is unpopular with the general public who want to be all so "modern" and "anyone can tell you that there are no such things". It is a statement of simple arrogance. It is also in the same league as someone who will try to mock you for your belief in God, soul, afterlife, spirituality etc. All those things share one common characteristic: "scientists" can't cram them into a laboratory test machine. I taught sciences and even scientific methodology for many years. The True attitude of the Scientific Method is to try to test things, but when you find that you cannot think of a way to test them, you do not go on a harangue about how they don't exist, but rather shut up and let others try to do what they can without your interference.

The NON-scientific attitudes of many of my colleagues has been embarrassing.
 

Ndaccountant

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Well.... despite having volunteered to be archival custodian of the files of one of the world's formerly-famous bigfoot/yeti researchers [I did this because I refuse to stand idly by and watch unique cultural collections be thrown into the dumpster just because their contents are academically-unpopular], I am no expert on the so-called ABSMs.

I didn't really think much about "ghosts" either until my brother and sister-in-law purchased a historically-important house in Wheeling, WV with some occasional spectacular poltergeist activity and even an occasional apparition. I've never seen/heard any of that myself, despite wishing to, but they have had dozens of such events, and knowing my brother VERY well as a real hard sell, I can do nothing but credit the phenomenon.

All that stuff is unpopular with the general public who want to be all so "modern" and "anyone can tell you that there are no such things". It is a statement of simple arrogance. It is also in the same league as someone who will try to mock you for your belief in God, soul, afterlife, spirituality etc. All those things share one common characteristic: "scientists" can't cram them into a laboratory test machine. I taught sciences and even scientific methodology for many years. The True attitude of the Scientific Method is to try to test things, but when you find that you cannot think of a way to test them, you do not go on a harangue about how they don't exist, but rather shut up and let others try to do what they can without your interference.

The NON-scientific attitudes of many of my colleagues has been embarrassing.

There is a real danger in the science community if ghosts were found to be real, no? Perhaps it is in their self interest to discredit it?
 

IrishinTN

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Well.... despite having volunteered to be archival custodian of the files of one of the world's formerly-famous bigfoot/yeti researchers [I did this because I refuse to stand idly by and watch unique cultural collections be thrown into the dumpster just because their contents are academically-unpopular], I am no expert on the so-called ABSMs.

I didn't really think much about "ghosts" either until my brother and sister-in-law purchased a historically-important house in Wheeling, WV with some occasional spectacular poltergeist activity and even an occasional apparition. I've never seen/heard any of that myself, despite wishing to, but they have had dozens of such events, and knowing my brother VERY well as a real hard sell, I can do nothing but credit the phenomenon.

All that stuff is unpopular with the general public who want to be all so "modern" and "anyone can tell you that there are no such things". It is a statement of simple arrogance. It is also in the same league as someone who will try to mock you for your belief in God, soul, afterlife, spirituality etc. All those things share one common characteristic: "scientists" can't cram them into a laboratory test machine. I taught sciences and even scientific methodology for many years. The True attitude of the Scientific Method is to try to test things, but when you find that you cannot think of a way to test them, you do not go on a harangue about how they don't exist, but rather shut up and let others try to do what they can without your interference.

The NON-scientific attitudes of many of my colleagues has been embarrassing.

Well I'll sound like a trailerpark conspiracy-lvin' nutjob, but we lived in one of those houses, too. Lots of stories about that place that makes peoples hair stand on end. Unexplainable. No Sasquatch experience yet, but I am willing to try.
 

RDU Irish

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Bigfoot - I find the cast evidence very compelling. No way a hoaxer is able to pull off the volume and consistency of those casts, especially the ones that show an identical deformity across many locations (I think they are migratory). Advanced knowledge of primate kineseology would be necessary to hoax the level of details that prove consistent across hundreds of samples.

Ghost Hunters is pretty sweet IMO. They should hit top floor of Leman at SMC. My wife had some non-alcohol influenced experiences there and it sounds like most who live there end up with a few of their own.

UFOs, I find folks pretty egocentric who think we are alone in the universe. Consider Earth is 4500 million (4.5 billion) years old, imagine an identical planet that is 4501 million years old. What will our technology look like one million years from now?
 

nlroma1o

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Bigfoot - I find the cast evidence very compelling. No way a hoaxer is able to pull off the volume and consistency of those casts, especially the ones that show an identical deformity across many locations (I think they are migratory). Advanced knowledge of primate kineseology would be necessary to hoax the level of details that prove consistent across hundreds of samples.

Bingo! This is why i've always reserved the possibilty they just might exist. Its plausible enough for me that an animal is smart enough to stay hidden, and that they are smart enough to bury or dispose of their dead in a way, so that we don't find remains.
 

Bluto

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Bigfoot - I find the cast evidence very compelling. No way a hoaxer is able to pull off the volume and consistency of those casts, especially the ones that show an identical deformity across many locations (I think they are migratory). Advanced knowledge of primate kineseology would be necessary to hoax the level of details that prove consistent across hundreds of samples.

Ghost Hunters is pretty sweet IMO. They should hit top floor of Leman at SMC. My wife had some non-alcohol influenced experiences there and it sounds like most who live there end up with a few of their own.

UFOs, I find folks pretty egocentric who think we are alone in the universe. Consider Earth is 4500 million (4.5 billion) years old, imagine an identical planet that is 4501 million years old. What will our technology look like one million years from now?

Not sure about Bigfoot. what I am sure about is the crew on that TV show Finding Bigfoot are pretty bad at their job.

Got some pretty good ghost stories from where I grew up.
 

RDU Irish

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Not sure about Bigfoot. what I am sure about is the crew on that TV show Finding Bigfoot are pretty bad at their job.

Got some pretty good ghost stories from where I grew up.

That show cracks me up. Moneymaker is a spaz to boot. Love how he yells and screams every time a squirrel farts and the others just want to smack him so they can hear what the hell is going on. They have had a few interesting encounters and the town hall accounts are always interesting.

They have alluded to the migratory thing before but then never really do a time history for various locations to see if there are seasons or times that sightings ebb and flow.


Back to SMC - Quiet Hours is the book written about ten years ago, pretty sure my wife got a copy and had a number of similar experiences to what was in there. Wonder what it would take to get Ghost Hunters there? Hard to imagine LeMan wasting their time.

Observer Newspaper - Scene
 

Old Man Mike

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Gentlemen, I've been in this "researching the Things Left Out" business for a very long time. I can tell you, having personally had multiple TV teams in my home bugging me with their astonishingly ignorant questions, that the amount of solid information on any of these things that you can cull off TV approaches zero. There are nearly-private micro-communities of scholars who research each of these anomalies. Very few of us want to be bothered by the inanities of the media [I've even had very good-hearted media guys like the head of Peter Jennings' team design a whole show around my and two buddies' scholarship only to have his higher ups insist that he cram screwed up crap in there too, in order to get higher ratings. That young man actually apologized to us.]

Never trust those "documentaries". You need to find one of the rare level-headed expert scholars on these mysteries to get a good critical basis, and then build your data by reading the best sources and "putting your own head together" on this. You'll be real popular among sensible people, but unwelcome among either extreme. AND, I can promise you that you will find that the "answer" though it never "solves", is always partially on the positive side that something about these long-standing mysteries is real. It's been an interesting, albeit somewhat out-of-control "hobby"....

Much like Notre Dame football ...

which is mostly real

I think. [no remarks about Manti's girlfriend allowed].
 

arahop

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I used to not believe in either UFO visitation or ghosts. I didn't believe we were alone in the universe, I just didn't believe ET's have been to Earth. A friend of mine who works for NASA, altered the way I think forever with some of the things he showed me. I'm not a scientist but I'm certain that there are dimensions that we simply can't detect. The amount of astronauts such as Buzz Aldrin and Gordon Cooper have some astounding testimonials. The only thing more amazing to me than ET's, is how people can still be in the complete dark about the whole situation. I know I was.
 

arrowryan

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I used to not believe in either UFO visitation or ghosts. I didn't believe we were alone in the universe, I just didn't believe ET's have been to Earth. A friend of mine who works for NASA, altered the way I think forever with some of the things he showed me. I'm not a scientist but I'm certain that there are dimensions that we simply can't detect. The amount of astronauts such as Buzz Aldrin and Gordon Cooper have some astounding testimonials. The only thing more amazing to me than ET's, is how people can still be in the complete dark about the whole situation. I know I was.

Care to share what your friend told you?
 

arahop

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The most interesting thing he shared with me is that there is apparently some kind of of "Secret Space Program" or "Dark Space Program". He said, " NASA is a joke in comparison to the things they can do"
 

NDPhilly

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One of my friends said this to me a few days ago.

28024243.jpg
 

tommyIRISH23

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Well.... despite having volunteered to be archival custodian of the files of one of the world's formerly-famous bigfoot/yeti researchers [I did this because I refuse to stand idly by and watch unique cultural collections be thrown into the dumpster just because their contents are academically-unpopular], I am no expert on the so-called ABSMs.

I didn't really think much about "ghosts" either until my brother and sister-in-law purchased a historically-important house in Wheeling, WV with some occasional spectacular poltergeist activity and even an occasional apparition. I've never seen/heard any of that myself, despite wishing to, but they have had dozens of such events, and knowing my brother VERY well as a real hard sell, I can do nothing but credit the phenomenon.

All that stuff is unpopular with the general public who want to be all so "modern" and "anyone can tell you that there are no such things". It is a statement of simple arrogance. It is also in the same league as someone who will try to mock you for your belief in God, soul, afterlife, spirituality etc. All those things share one common characteristic: "scientists" can't cram them into a laboratory test machine. I taught sciences and even scientific methodology for many years. The True attitude of the Scientific Method is to try to test things, but when you find that you cannot think of a way to test them, you do not go on a harangue about how they don't exist, but rather shut up and let others try to do what they can without your interference.

The NON-scientific attitudes of many of my colleagues has been embarrassing.



OMM,

Whats your theory on ghosts? I've had wayyy to many experiences that go beyond the "house is just settling" rationale. I'm a pretty level headed person and try to be objective so please dont think im some kook lol but ive always had an interest in trying to figure out what they are? But it seems that the closer you get, the more agitated they become.

I've kept a non-academic interest in some of the academically unpopular realms of spirituality and science. Pagan rituals, possesion..etc have been around for 1000'sof years and i think itd be ignorant to just right it off as superstition, especially since theyve lasted the test of history for this long.
 

Old Man Mike

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To Tommy: because the phenomenology of "ghosts" is not my area of research, I have not earned the right to expound anything like a responsible theory. I will, WITH A LOT OF HUMILITY, say a few things that I believe I've gained from my family's experiences and reading the best literature.

Maybe it would not be a waste of time to make a short list of the authors of that literature.
1). Fr. Herbert Thurston, a Catholic priest with an open-minded intellectual approach to the subject [a Jesuit I believe]. His book is Ghosts and Poltergeists;
2). Catherine Crowe, a 19th century lady with connections all over England and Germany, who collected many credible incidents and published them in The Nightside of Nature.
3). ARG Owen, author of one of the more sensible reviews, Can We Explain the Poltergeist?;
4). GNM Tyrell, who authored probably the best overview specifically on apparitions, entitled simply Apparitions;
5). "Moderns" like William Roll, Scott Rogo, and Loyd Auerbach are OK, but the modern thrust towards "explaining" poltergeist events by subconscious breaking-out of psychokinesis usually caused by some unhappy highly-stressed puberty-era teenager is in my estimation wrong.

To even begin to attempt a theory of "ghosts" one must decide what you're even trying to explain. There are places where there are only physical effects. There are places where there are only apparitions. There are places [much rarer in the researched literature] where there are both. All these things have been labelled "ghosts" by pop culture. In my opinion, all cases are not the same thing. Surprisingly to me, my brother's house DOES have both, but the physical events are much more common.

Whenever an experienced anomalies researcher goes into a subject, he assumes that he is not going to be confronted by one thing but by several different "explanations". Of course, baloney is rampant. You have to expect that about 90% [maybe really about 9-out-of-10, i.e. not just a catchphrase] claims are bogus. Most of these are not hoaxes, but the excited poor observation or knowledge base of folks wanting to be a part of something wonderful. The "leftover 10%" comprise the true mystery.

Physical anomalies [motions of objects or sounds, which are a type of motion of air] happen. There is WAY too much of that attested to for the general claim not to be true. But what/who is the causal agency? You don't have many categorical choices. You can go with a living human being, like in the William Roll distressed teenager concept, and buy into spectacular psychokinesis effects which don't manifest with that person any other time. I softly reject this as many "poltergeist houses" persist in their behaviors regardless of what people happen to be occupying them.

What's left? The "spirits of the dead", minor demons [who go by many names in cultures worldwide: the djinn of the middle east and India are a prominent example], and what the Old Irish used to cal "the Middle Angels". These, according to the old folklore were angelic-class spirits who, when given the famous test by God, refused either to choose failure like Lucifer, or communion like Michael, and essentially said: no way to either, we'll think about it. God then "solved" that dilemma by placing these spiritual/paranormally-based creatures in parallel realities to worlds like our own, but with restrictions on the limits of their interactions and interferences.

And there are the worldwide concepts of the "playful tricksters", such as Raven, Coyote, et al in Native American lore. There is a theory that djinn, minor demons, middle angels, tricksters et al are all the same sort of entities and are behind such incidents. As I say, I have not earned the right of an opinion on this. It is a powerful enough hypothesis to cover the whole range of the anomalies, but it is untestable and would remain a matter of faith.

I'm stopping with that. All of these mini-reviews I write are a bit uncomfortable as they cannot possibly deliver the richness of the subjects and are therefore rife with potential misinformation. As with all of them: read the serious people, multiple viewpoints. Don't jump too quickly to a conclusion. Gather your own pile of data; see if it all fits or falls apart into separate piles. Think.
 

50milesSE ND

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I was told by a friend that is in the conspiracy theories that area 51 is believed to be more of a portal research than secret aircraft? Who knows, but scary if people are messing with things we might not be able to control.
 

military_irish

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I know someone who actually has been to area 51 and they said it is nothing more than a normal air base.

Then later when I was enlisted in the Air Force someone told me that Area 51 is just a decoy and the real "experiments" are done almost in "plain" sight. The analogy he used was "they will dangle shiny keys in one spot so everyone looks there while they actually do something behind them"
 

IrishLion

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I've heard the "real" Area 51 is Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio
 

Old Man Mike

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In the interest of reality: during WWII and before, the Army Air Force wished to create a dedicated facility for high-tech aeronautical engineering. They established that facility as Wright Field [Dayton, Ohio]. This was not a normal airbase, but it used one just next door, Patterson AFB, a "normal air field." The entire complex was broken up theoretically into three components named "T-1", "T-2", and "T-3". Patterson was T-1. The Wright engineering facility was T-3. The aeronautical intelligence operation was T-2. Everything was under a single base commander [just after WWII this was General Nathan Twining.] The UFO intelligence project was, therefore in T-2, but it could consult with anyone in T-3. Most of the ex-Nazi aeroengineers were sequestered in T-3, while the rocketry engineers went to White Sands New Mexico.

It wasn't long before the Air Force, now independent from the Army, realized that flying extra-sophisticated experimental craft over Dayton, Ohio was a bad idea. It was bad for both safety and spying reasons. So, they built up a new facility for this sort of thing in California at Edwards AFB. Aeronautical legends such as Kelly Johnson of Lockheed operated the famous "Skunk Works" there to develop "deep black" CIA-involved spycraft to irritate Russia. The desert location was good for safety, plenty of room, and the isolation helped vs spying.

As time went by, the Air Force/CIA felt the need to build more facilities and just as "Top Secret". For this they chose the Nevada desert around Nellis AFB and the legend of Area 51 began. One can believe anything that one wants about the kind of things that go on there, but that base has not in the recent past been a "normal" AFB. In some ways it operates like any technological development facility, but it has engaged in many Top Secret technology projects.

Some people believe that because of all the conspiracy theories associated with Area 51 tales, and how they have drawn civilian idiots into off-limits restricted areas trying to get photos [guys who try to get info on possible aerospace plane development to make and sell model kits have been a consistent nuisance], that a new facility, rumored to be in Utah, has taken over certain projects.

All of this makes good military sense. Put your secret tech-development facilities in the deserts and keep prying eyes out of them. Probably the only thing that doesn't quite make sense is why we're spending some much money on some of this weaponry. I'm all for the aerospace plane; that could make space exploration easier in combo with a real space station facility. NASA would kill for that.
 
C

Cackalacky

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An aside to the last few posts (regarding US rocket science in the 1930s), this was most interesting to me.....

A man named Jack Parsons worked with German ex-patriots to form what would later be the JPL. Jack Parsons was also an occultist where he along with many other Hollywood people and big wigs would take part in occult sex rites. One of his idols was Alistair Crowley. Later on another person would join the group, one L.Ron Hubbard. Hubbard eventually stole Parsons (for lack of better words) girlfriend or rite partner and Parson's sail boat and disappeared for a while. Both Hubbard and the girl eventually returned with the boat and later married. Parsons eventually blew himself up in his garage working on a new jet fuel. There is an excellent book called "Sex and Rockets" that describes this period of time surrounding one of the JPL founders in detail. Below is a wiki link. Interesting circle.

John Whiteside Parsons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Old Man Mike

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That LA group was "interesting" in many ways [it also contained SF writers including maybe the best SF writer of all time, Robert Heinlein].

It's flirtation with Crowley's Golden Dawn occult teachings was real, but apparently at much different levels of commitment. Hubbard was a charlatan from the start, knowingly inventing his own cult to achieve two purposes: unlimited sex access, and significant money. He was "successful" at both, and will go down in history as a quintessentially immoral waster of a potentially talented life. If there is a Hell, he's there.

Jack Parsons is far more interesting and scarier. He was clearly a genius; one of three founders [with von Karman and Malina] of Cal Tech's USAF-supported Jet Propulsion Laboratory]. But he was one of those insanely talented persons for whom mere ordinary genius was not enough.

Parsons bought the theory behind Crowley's ideas of occult powers completely [maybe more than Crowley himself]. Burying himself in studies of rare and esoteric manuscripts, Parsons decided to produce a "Work". By this was meant that he would strike out on a multi-staged ritual to bring some kind of raw occult power into the world. I've forgotten what this power was called, perhaps something like The Moonchild. Whatever it was, Crowley considered Parsons crazy for attempting it, and tried, unsuccessfully, to talk him out of it. How Parsons thought he would control the power he was to unleash, no one knows --- perhaps he didn't care, and was simply crazily [a la Frankenstein] driven to do it.

Did Parsons have any "success"? No one knows. But there is a big mystery here. Parsons created an isolated shack [in the California desert, I believe] to privately pursue his "moon work". It is recorded in some notes that after much working, there was something called "the Event", which blew the building sky high. No one knows the explanation.

Many of us "oh-so-modern" 21st century-ites doubtless scoff at the ridiculousness of Jack Parsons' quest. The Catholic Church does not. The Church has always believed that such liaisons with spiritual evil are possible and extremely dangerous. Whether Parsons "opened a door" or not, we'll [hopefully] never know.
 
C

Cackalacky

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That LA group was "interesting" in many ways [it also contained SF writers including maybe the best SF writer of all time, Robert Heinlein].

It's flirtation with Crowley's Golden Dawn occult teachings was real, but apparently at much different levels of commitment. Hubbard was a charlatan from the start, knowingly inventing his own cult to achieve two purposes: unlimited sex access, and significant money. He was "successful" at both, and will go down in history as a quintessentially immoral waster of a potentially talented life. If there is a Hell, he's there.

Jack Parsons is far more interesting and scarier. He was clearly a genius; one of three founders [with von Karman and Malina] of Cal Tech's USAF-supported Jet Propulsion Laboratory]. But he was one of those insanely talented persons for whom mere ordinary genius was not enough.

Parsons bought the theory behind Crowley's ideas of occult powers completely [maybe more than Crowley himself]. Burying himself in studies of rare and esoteric manuscripts, Parsons decided to produce a "Work". By this was meant that he would strike out on a multi-staged ritual to bring some kind of raw occult power into the world. I've forgotten what this power was called, perhaps something like The Moonchild. Whatever it was, Crowley considered Parsons crazy for attempting it, and tried, unsuccessfully, to talk him out of it. How Parsons thought he would control the power he was to unleash, no one knows --- perhaps he didn't care, and was simply crazily [a la Frankenstein] driven to do it.

Did Parsons have any "success"? No one knows. But there is a big mystery here. Parsons created an isolated shack [in the California desert, I believe] to privately pursue his "moon work". It is recorded in some notes that after much working, there was something called "the Event", which blew the building sky high. No one knows the explanation.

Many of us "oh-so-modern" 21st century-ites doubtless scoff at the ridiculousness of Jack Parsons' quest. The Catholic Church does not. The Church has always believed that such liaisons with spiritual evil are possible and extremely dangerous. Whether Parsons "opened a door" or not, we'll [hopefully] never know.

It was the Moon child, which un-nerved Crowley to the extreme. Parsons believed he succeeded. After Hubbard ran off with the girl on the yacht, Parsons performed a curse on them and on the same day, Hubbard encountered a squall of such force and magnitude that he and the woman had to retreat and return to port.
 
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