Oversigning Recruits

[Rack Em]

bishop, it doesnt matter when the kid knew about the greyshirt. People on this website do not like the concept of greyshirting to begin with.

Exactly. It strikes me as dishonest and immoral to back out on a promise.

To give a related analogy, in the eyes of the law a if an individual relies upon a promise by another the law can enforce that promise. Given, the legal system and the NCAA are two completely separate entities but the concept is the same. In this case, the scholarship offer is the promise (4 years of education for busting your rear on the football field while performing in the classroom). Parents and STUDENT-athletes rely upon those promises. It's not acceptable to revoke that.

 

[Bishop2b5]

bishop, it doesnt matter when the kid knew about the greyshirt. People on this website do not like the concept of greyshirting to begin with.

And I can understand that, but to intentionally distort the facts about it in order to condemn the practice is dishonest. If a school promises a kid a scholarship, but pulls it at the last minute, then they've mistreated that kid. OTOH, if they're upfront with him, he has plenty of time to look at going to other schools but still chooses to take the grayshirt, the school hasn't misled or mistreated the kid. Grayshirting lets a kid take a semester off to rehab an injury or mature, and then start his career. As long as the school then provides the promised scholarship, I have a hard time seeing how there's any wrongdoing or the recruit has been mistreated.

 

[philipm31]

Bishop, you said that Alabama will have 9 EE's and sign a total of 25 recruits, INCLUDING those 9 EE's.

Yesterday they signed 26. 26+9=35

Um, what?

How many will magically have to grayshirt, take medical hardships, etc at Bama, Texas A&M (34 signees), UGA (32 signees), Mississippi (28 signees) FLA (27 signees), even Vandy (27 signees)?

Sorry, but in this numbers game, the SEC is blatantly crossing the line here.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

I don't have time to do a complete recap but Georgia signing 32 this year certainly is in keeping with the $EC tradition. Someone remnid me again why the $EC continues to be atop the polls. And before some $EC apologist says that ND has signed 87 in that same period which is over the limit, keep in mind one of the 87 lost his life, another transferred before ever stepping on campus (Roback), and at least one other has transferred to be closer to home for family reasons (Spencer Boyd). By and large, these classes are in tact.

2013 32
2012 19
2011 26
2010 19
96

96>85.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Bishop, you said that Alabama will have 9 EE's and sign a total of 25 recruits, INCLUDING those 9 EE's.

Yesterday they signed 26. 26+9=35

Um, what?

How many will magically have to grayshirt, take medical hardships, etc at Bama, Texas A&M (34 signees), UGA (32 signees), Mississippi (28 signees) FLA (27 signees), even Vandy (27 signees)?

Sorry, but in this numbers game, the SEC is blatantly crossing the line here.

No. The EE's are included in this year's recruiting class number, not in addition to them. See Alabama 2013 Football Commits

We had 7 scholarship EE's and 2 high profile walk-on EE's (Miller & Del Rio). We signed a total of 26 yesterday and one of them (Bozeman) will grayshirt and count towards next year's signing class.

 

[IrishLax]

And I can understand that, but to intentionally distort the facts about it in order to condemn the practice is dishonest. If a school promises a kid a scholarship, but pulls it at the last minute, then they've mistreated that kid. OTOH, if they're upfront with him, he has plenty of time to look at going to other schools but still chooses to take the grayshirt, the school hasn't misled or mistreated the kid. Grayshirting lets a kid take a semester off to rehab an injury or mature, and then start his career. As long as the school then provides the promised scholarship, I have a hard time seeing how there's any wrongdoing or the recruit has been mistreated.

This.....

 

[Bishop2b5]

I don't have time to do a complete recap but Georgia signing 32 this year certainly is in keeping with the $EC tradition. Someone remnid me again why the $EC continues to be atop the polls. And before some $EC apologist says that ND has signed 87 in that same period which is over the limit, keep in mind one of the 87 lost his life, another transferred before ever stepping on campus (Roback), and at least one other has transferred to be closer to home for family reasons (Spencer Boyd). By and large, these classes are in tact.

2013 32
2012 19
2011 26
2010 19
96

96>85.

NCAA rules allow every team to sign up to 27 and award 25 scholarships with each recruiting class in most cases, allowing for a non-qualifier or a grayshirt. The exception is if you don't use all your scholarships from one class, you can use those extra ones you have left the following year as long as they are used on early enrollees (and if you don't have scholarships remaining from the previous year, your EE's count against your incoming class' 25). You're not getting any extra players or more than anyone else. You're still only getting 50 new players between the two classes. Of course, you still have to stay below the 85 total scholarship limit.

UGA didn't use all their scholarships last year. They're just using the extra ones this year. Of the 32 they signed this year, they expect to lose or grayshirt one, giving them a total of 50 scholarships between the two classes. They are well within the NCAA rules, and there's nothing nefarious about any of it.

 

[woolybug25]

NCAA rules allow every team to sign up to 27 and award 25 scholarships with each recruiting class in most cases, allowing for a non-qualifier or a grayshirt. The exception is if you don't use all your scholarships from one class, you can use those extra ones you have left the following year as long as they are used on early enrollees (and if you don't have scholarships remaining from the previous year, your EE's count against your incoming class' 25). You're not getting any extra players or more than anyone else. You're still only getting 50 new players between the two classes. Of course, you still have to stay below the 85 total scholarship limit.

UGA didn't use all their scholarships last year. They're just using the extra ones this year. Of the 32 they signed this year, they expect to lose or grayshirt one, giving them a total of 50 scholarships between the two classes. They are well within the NCAA rules, and there's nothing nefarious about any of it.

How do you explain the fact that they would have had to have 11 EE's in '10 to justify being under the 85 now?

 

[NOLAIrish]

I don't have time to do a complete recap but Georgia signing 32 this year certainly is in keeping with the $EC tradition. Someone remnid me again why the $EC continues to be atop the polls. And before some $EC apologist says that ND has signed 87 in that same period which is over the limit, keep in mind one of the 87 lost his life, another transferred before ever stepping on campus (Roback), and at least one other has transferred to be closer to home for family reasons (Spencer Boyd). By and large, these classes are in tact.

2013 32
2012 19
2011 26
2010 19
96

96>85.

As I understand it, UGA actually had the spots for 34 this year. Their 2011 class absolutely fell apart after signing day. Kent Turene and Chris Mayes were ineligible before setting foot on campus. Chris Sanders, Nick Marshall and Sanford Seay were booted for lockerroom theft. Isaiah Crowell's arrest and expulsion was pretty high-profile. Quintavious Harrow was dismissed for undisclosed reasons, rumored to be failed drug tests. And Johnathan Jenkins came in as a junior and graduated. That cuts the 2011 class down to 18. Two failed to qualify last year (they're actually part of both last year's 19 and this year's 32 as they've now qualified and enrolled). Factor in early entries to the draft, transfers, etc. and UGA was sitting well below 85.

Don't get me wrong, I think we should be proud of the caliber of people we bring in at Notre Dame. But UGA isn't using the really shady oversigning tactics here (to me, the egregious ones are any that are against the best interest of the student, e.g. grayshirting, forced medicals, coerced transfers).

 

[Bishop2b5]

How do you explain the fact that they would have had to have 11 EE's in '10 to justify being under the 85 now?

I'm not sure I understand your question about needing 11 EE's in '10, so if I don't give you the explanation you want, let me know. First, all unused scholarships remaining from a previous recruiting class must be used for EE's the following year or they're lost. However, all EE's don't have to be counted towards "leftover" scholarships from the previous year. If you don't have any scholarships remaining from the previous year, they just count toward your incoming class (which is really the class they're part of). If you signed 20 last year, you can use those 5 remaining scholarships on 5 EE's this year and still sign 25 more on NSD, giving you a total of 50 between the two classes. If you signed 25 last year, you can only sign 25 this year, but as many of those 25 as are eligible can still start classes in Jan. as EE's.

As for signing 96 over a four year span at UGA, that isn't unusual. To lose 11 players in 4 years is pretty normal. Most schools sign more than 85 in four years. I don't know of any school that's kept all its players over a four year span. You lose some to injuries, transfers, academics, early entry to the NFL, or discipline problems. UGA has had a few leave early for the NFL and booted at least 2 (and probably more) due to discipline problems. As long as they enter each fall with 85 on scholarship, they're following the rules.

 

[Bishop2b5]

As I understand it, UGA actually had the spots for 34 this year. Their 2011 class absolutely fell apart after signing day. Kent Turene and Chris Mayes were ineligible before setting foot on campus. Chris Sanders, Nick Marshall and Sanford Seay were booted for lockerroom theft. Isaiah Crowell's arrest and expulsion was pretty high-profile. Quintavious Harrow was dismissed for undisclosed reasons, rumored to be failed drug tests. And Johnathan Jenkins came in as a junior and graduated. That cuts the 2011 class down to 18. Two failed to qualify last year (they're actually part of both last year's 19 and this year's 32 as they've now qualified and enrolled). Factor in early entries to the draft, transfers, etc. and UGA was sitting well below 85.

Don't get me wrong, I think we should be proud of the caliber of people we bring in at Notre Dame. But UGA isn't using the really shady oversigning tactics here (to me, the egregious ones are any that are against the best interest of the student, e.g. grayshirting, forced medicals, coerced transfers).

^This^

UGA's been hit hard the past few years with character and behavior issues. I like Richt, but this is on him as the HC. Nice guy who tries to be their buddy instead of their coach too often. He's recruited too many immature kids and ones with questionable character, and then failed to provide sufficient guidance and discipline to steer them in the right direction.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I think most people understand there are scenarios in which you can sign more than 25 in a given year. The issue people have is when coaches sign over 25 year after year, putting them over the hard cap of 85. In order to get down to 85, they use techniques that don't sit well with most of the members on this board.

If you have 70 kids on scholarship and sign 25, what happens to the 10 "worst" kids on the team? They get cut (in one way or another). ND does not do this. If there are 70 kids on scholarship, then ND will only sign 15. Why is it so hard to understand ND fans have a problem with oversigning? ND has student-athletes and to almost all of them, their four-year degree is just as important to them as football.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I think most people understand there are scenarios in which you can sign more than 25 in a given year. The issue people have is when coaches sign over 25 year after year, putting them over the hard cap of 85. In order to get down to 85, they use techniques that don't sit well with most of the members on this board.

If you have 70 kids on scholarship and sign 25, what happens to the 10 "worst" kids on the team? They get cut (in one way or another). ND does not do this. If there are 70 kids on scholarship, then ND will only sign 15. Why is it so hard to understand ND fans have a problem with oversigning? ND has student-athletes and to almost all of them, their four-year degree is just as important to them as football.

I don't know of anybody that's saying just cutting those 10 worst kids is fine. It's legal per NCAA rules, but not necessarily honorable. I might make the case that keeping them denies the same scholarship and opportunity to 10 other more deserving players, but I still wouldn't like to see it happen and don't support that approach.

There's a lot of talk about it happening and how awful it is and how horrible SEC schools are for doing it, but as Rocky said earlier in this thread, show me concrete examples of it actually happening. There aren't many, if any! Several of you scream bloody murder about how evil Saban and Bama and the SEC are for doing it, and how it gives us some sort of unfair advantage in numbers, yet you can't seem to come up with an example of it actually happening. I won't swear on my life it's never happened, but I can't find an example of it either.

I don't know of a single player at Bama who has been run off to make room for a new recruit. There's only been one player who was removed from the team for medical reasons yet got cleared to play somewhere else, and it took him two years of diagnosis shopping and almost a dozen doctors to finally find one who said he thought the kid's heart problem wasn't life-threatening. Find me one who says his scholarship was pulled because he wasn't good enough to break into the 2-deep. We've had a few who transferred to other schools for playing time, but I challenge you to find a single one of them who says he was forced to leave. Saban has said he's never asked a player to give up his scholarship because he wasn't good enough, and I challenge you to find me a concrete example otherwise. You can't. There's a good reason. It hasn't happened and there aren't any.

 

[irishfanjho15]

^This^

UGA's been hit hard the past few years with character and behavior issues. I like Richt, but this is on him as the HC. Nice guy who tries to be their buddy instead of their coach too often. He's recruited too many immature kids and ones with questionable character, and then failed to provide sufficient guidance and discipline to steer them in the right direction.

Great talent, not so great character. Richt doesn't instill that character or discipline once he gets them in the program either. This is the reason Richt wins ten games a year and Saban wins championship.

 

[irishfanjho15]

I don't know of anybody that's saying just cutting those 10 worst kids is fine. It's legal per NCAA rules, but not necessarily honorable. I might make the case that keeping them denies the same scholarship and opportunity to 10 other more deserving players, but I still wouldn't like to see it happen and don't support that approach.

There's a lot of talk about it happening and how awful it is and how horrible SEC schools are for doing it, but as Rocky said earlier in this thread, show me concrete examples of it actually happening. There aren't many, if any! Several of you scream bloody murder about how evil Saban and Bama and the SEC are for doing it, and how it gives us some sort of unfair advantage in numbers, yet you can't seem to come up with an example of it actually happening. I won't swear on my life it's never happened, but I can't find an example of it either.

I don't know of a single player at Bama who has been run off to make room for a new recruit. There's only been one player who was removed from the team for medical reasons yet got cleared to play somewhere else, and it took him two years of diagnosis shopping and almost a dozen doctors to finally find one who said he thought the kid's heart problem wasn't life-threatening. Find me one who says his scholarship was pulled because he wasn't good enough to break into the 2-deep. We've had a few who transferred to other schools for playing time, but I challenge you to find a single one of them who says he was forced to leave. Saban has said he's never asked a player to give up his scholarship because he wasn't good enough, and I challenge you to find me a concrete example otherwise. You can't. There's a good reason. It hasn't happened and there aren't any.

oooooooooooooooooook

 

[Bishop2b5]

Great talent, not so great character. Richt doesn't instill that character or discipline once he gets them in the program either. This is the reason Richt wins ten games a year and Saban wins championship.

Exactly. Every program has recruited a few kids with academic or character question marks. A few programs tend to recruit more such kids than others, but if you provide those kids with discipline, set forth very clear expectations, put them in the right environment, give them the guidance and support they need, and hold them accountable instead of looking the other way when and if they stray off the path, you can work miracles and turn most of those kids into outstanding students and young men.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Exactly. Every program has recruited a few kids with academic or character question marks. A few programs tend to recruit more such kids than others, but if you provide those kids with discipline, set forth very clear expectations, put them in the right environment, give them the guidance and support they need, and hold them accountable instead of looking the other way when and if they stray off the path, you can work miracles and turn most of those kids into outstanding students and young men.

When Saban and the rest of the $EC starts bringing in 85 "student athletes" in a rolling 4 years I'll believe that he has stopped his practice of oversigning. Until then, he is a scumbag in my book (as are the rest of them that do this).

 

[IrishLax]

I don't know of anybody that's saying just cutting those 10 worst kids is fine. It's legal per NCAA rules, but not necessarily honorable. I might make the case that keeping them denies the same scholarship and opportunity to 10 other more deserving players, but I still wouldn't like to see it happen and don't support that approach.

There's a lot of talk about it happening and how awful it is and how horrible SEC schools are for doing it, but as Rocky said earlier in this thread, show me concrete examples of it actually happening. There aren't many, if any! Several of you scream bloody murder about how evil Saban and Bama and the SEC are for doing it, and how it gives us some sort of unfair advantage in numbers, yet you can't seem to come up with an example of it actually happening. I won't swear on my life it's never happened, but I can't find an example of it either.

I don't know of a single player at Bama who has been run off to make room for a new recruit. There's only been one player who was removed from the team for medical reasons yet got cleared to play somewhere else, and it took him two years of diagnosis shopping and almost a dozen doctors to finally find one who said he thought the kid's heart problem wasn't life-threatening. Find me one who says his scholarship was pulled because he wasn't good enough to break into the 2-deep. We've had a few who transferred to other schools for playing time, but I challenge you to find a single one of them who says he was forced to leave. Saban has said he's never asked a player to give up his scholarship because he wasn't good enough, and I challenge you to find me a concrete example otherwise. You can't. There's a good reason. It hasn't happened and there aren't any.

Seriously? Let's start with this to set the stage: SPORTSbyBROOKS » Saban: Bama’s Roster Is ‘None Of Your Business’

No, you're not going to find a kid who has gone on record saying "Saban made me give up my scholarship"... I have seen that from an LSU kid and a Florida who got caught in the numbers crunch and got so pissed about it they went to the media... but I don't think I've ever seen anyone from Alabama. Why? Because most kids have no interest in burning bridges.

But you cannot reasonably explain how in the past:
1. Alabama would have regular double digit attrition of scholarship players after NSD when basically no school outside of the SEC ever does.
2. Alabama would give out ~3 medicals a year... something absurd like 10x+ the national average and statistically inexplicable.
3. Alabama would simply list a couple kids as "scholarship not renewed"... when basically the definition of cutting someone is not renewing their scholarship.

Alabama « Oversigning.com

Listen, it's not like you're unique or other schools don't do it. I just had a friend at Syracuse get forced out due to "oversigning" but no one cares because it's a little time sport that he plays. It's incredibly common throughout the NCAA in all sports and is only just now become a hot button issue in football because people outside the SEC need to latch onto something as a reason for why they can't compete.

But pleeeeeeeease don't tell me that you actually believe your coaches have never nudged someone to transfer or otherwise forced them out of the program. Come on.

 

[NOLAIrish]

Seriously? Let's start with this to set the stage: SPORTSbyBROOKS » Saban: Bama’s Roster Is ‘None Of Your Business’

No, you're not going to find a kid who has gone on record saying "Saban made me give up my scholarship"... I have seen that from an LSU kid and a Florida who got caught in the numbers crunch and got so pissed about it they went to the media... but I don't think I've ever seen anyone from Alabama. Why? Because most kids have no interest in burning bridges.

But you cannot reasonably explain how in the past:
1. Alabama would have regular double digit attrition of scholarship players after NSD when basically no school outside of the SEC ever does.
2. Alabama would give out ~3 medicals a year... something absurd like 10x+ the national average and statistically inexplicable.
3. Alabama would simply list a couple kids as "scholarship not renewed"... when basically the definition of cutting someone is not renewing their scholarship.

Alabama « Oversigning.com

Listen, it's not like you're unique or other schools don't do it. I just had a friend at Syracuse get forced out due to "oversigning" but no one cares because it's a little time sport that he plays. It's incredibly common throughout the NCAA in all sports and is only just now become a hot button issue in football because people outside the SEC need to latch onto something as a reason for why they can't compete.

But pleeeeeeeease don't tell me that you actually believe your coaches have never nudged someone to transfer or otherwise forced them out of the program. Come on.

Great points. This reminded me of an article I read a few years ago. Decided to find it: WSJ examines Alabama's Medical Scholarships

 

[Bishop2b5]

When Saban and the rest of the $EC starts bringing in 85 "student athletes" in a rolling 4 years I'll believe that he has stopped his practice of oversigning. Until then, he is a scumbag in my book (as are the rest of them that do this).

Why? Do you know of any team that only brings in 85 every 4 years? ND doesn't. No team in CFB does that I know of. Why should a team only bring in 85 during a rolling 4 year period? Just because you want them to or because you don't understand the NCAA rules on the matter? It's not against the rules and for good reason. The NCAA lets you bring in 25/yr with a total of 85 on scholarship because every team loses players over the years to early departure for the NFL, injuries, academics, discipline, transfers, etc. If you sign 100 players in 4 years, you can bet your last dollar that all 100 won't still be there 4 years later.

If a team signs 25 per year, stays within the 85 total limit, and isn't misleading or mistreating players, they are adhering to both the letter and the spirit of the NCAA rules. So what's your problem with them then? I'm genuinely not trying to insult you or troll or argue. I'm just unsure what your issue is here. I don't know if you don't understand the NCAA rules, understand them but don't agree with them, or have bought into the whole "they must be cheating" thing without actually seeing if it's true or not.

 

[IrishLax]

Great points. This reminded me of an article I read a few years ago. Decided to find it: WSJ examines Alabama's Medical Scholarships

This is perfect. This is exactly what I'm talking about. If you think Alabama coaches don't pressure kids into transferring or taking medicals then you're not paying attention.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Why? Do you know of any team that only brings in 85 every 4 years? ND doesn't. No team in CFB does that I know of. Why should a team only bring in 85 during a rolling 4 year period? Just because you want them to or because you don't understand the NCAA rules on the matter? It's not against the rules and for good reason. The NCAA lets you bring in 25/yr with a total of 85 on scholarship because every team loses players over the years to early departure for the NFL, injuries, academics, discipline, transfers, etc. If you sign 100 players in 4 years, you can bet your last dollar that all 100 won't still be there 4 years later.

If a team signs 25 per year, stays within the 85 total limit, and isn't misleading or mistreating players, they are adhering to both the letter and the spirit of the NCAA rules. So what's your problem with them then? I'm genuinely not trying to insult you or troll or argue. I'm just unsure what your issue is here. I don't know if you don't understand the NCAA rules, understand them but don't agree with them, or have bought into the whole "they must be cheating" thing without actually seeing if it's true or not.

You are completely missing the point here. We get that there is a bit of attrition over time. It's the form of attrition that has people riled up. It's purposely signing beyond your 85 total limit and figuring a way to trim the fat later. Stop bringing up the "rule." We get it.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I gave a perfect example earlier.

If Alabama has 70 players on scholarship, they'll still sign 25 and figure out the rest later. Whether it be from transfers, medicals, not qualifying, etc.

If ND has 70 on scholarship, they will only sign 15 the next cycle. Period. IF by chance a transfer or major injury occurs, that number changes, but never will they max out the 25 yearly limit if it jeopardizes the 85 limit.

 

[ickythump1225]

Great talent, not so great character. Richt doesn't instill that character or discipline once he gets them in the program either. This is the reason Richt wins ten games a year and Saban wins championship.

Exactly right. Richt is a decent coach but he has a ceiling and that ceiling was met this year. As long as UGA keeps him around they'll be stuck right where they're at. I believe Saban uses fuzzy math with his roster and I have a big suspicion that there might be PEDs being used in Tuscaloosa but I will say this about Saban: his players rarely have discipline problems.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Seriously? Let's start with this to set the stage: SPORTSbyBROOKS » Saban: Bama’s Roster Is ‘None Of Your Business’

No, you're not going to find a kid who has gone on record saying "Saban made me give up my scholarship"... I have seen that from an LSU kid and a Florida who got caught in the numbers crunch and got so pissed about it they went to the media... but I don't think I've ever seen anyone from Alabama. Why? Because most kids have no interest in burning bridges.

But you cannot reasonably explain how in the past:
1. Alabama would have regular double digit attrition of scholarship players after NSD when basically no school outside of the SEC ever does.
2. Alabama would give out ~3 medicals a year... something absurd like 10x+ the national average and statistically inexplicable.
3. Alabama would simply list a couple kids as "scholarship not renewed"... when basically the definition of cutting someone is not renewing their scholarship.

Alabama « Oversigning.com

Listen, it's not like you're unique or other schools don't do it. I just had a friend at Syracuse get forced out due to "oversigning" but no one cares because it's a little time sport that he plays. It's incredibly common throughout the NCAA in all sports and is only just now become a hot button issue in football because people outside the SEC need to latch onto something as a reason for why they can't compete.

But pleeeeeeeease don't tell me that you actually believe your coaches have never nudged someone to transfer or otherwise forced them out of the program. Come on.

All I can tell you is our coach says he doesn't do it, none of the kids who've transferred have ever claimed he did, and if he were using medical hardships on kids who weren't really suffering career-ending injuries, you'd think at least one of them would be able to get cleared to play somewhere else, yet they can't. All of the articles and accusations are based on statistics - Bama and Saban have more transfers and medical hardships than average. No concrete actual examples though.

Has Saban ever nudged a player to leave? Possibly. Nudging or being totally frank with a player and letting him know you don't see much chance of him ever seeing significant playing time is a long way from pulling a scholarship though, and I don't know of a single case where he's done that. He says he never has, and none of the players who've left have claimed he has. "Scholarship not renewed" covers a lot of things. Few schools disclose the exact reasons a player is kicked off a team. That's for legal reasons and to protect the player's privacy. It usually means the player broke team rules, had a discipline or attitude problem, flunked out, failed a drug test, or something else along those lines.

You said, "It's incredibly common throughout the NCAA in all sports and is only just now become a hot button issue in football because people outside the SEC need to latch onto something as a reason for why they can't compete." I don't want to believe that, but it's hard not to seeing the attachment some have to the issue and the way they latch onto it despite any concrete evidence to support their view.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I gave a perfect example earlier.

If Alabama has 70 players on scholarship, they'll still sign 25 and figure out the rest later. Whether it be from transfers, medicals, not qualifying, etc.

If ND has 70 on scholarship, they will only sign 15 the next cycle. Period. IF by chance a transfer or major injury occurs, that number changes, but never will they max out the 25 yearly limit if it jeopardizes the 85 limit.

OK, show me where Bama has had 70 on scholarship and still signed 25. Has it ever actually happened or is this just what you think must be going on or what someone else told you or just a convenient explanation for our success? We're back to "They do this! I know they do!!!" but can't show an example of it actually taking place. You can look all day, but you won't find an example of us getting rid of 15 players between NSD and fall practice. You won't find 10. You may not even find 5. There's a big difference between "I know they do it" and reality. At worst, you'll find that we've gone into NSD slightly over 60, knowing that we'll likely lose a few in the coming 6 months to injuries, academics, personal issues, disciplinary problems, or transfers just like most other schools.

 

[irishfanjho15]

OK, show me where Bama has had 70 on scholarship and still signed 25. Has it ever actually happened or is this just what you think must be going on or what someone else told you or just a convenient explanation for our success? We're back to "They do this! I know they do!!!" but can't show an example of it actually taking place. You can look all day, but you won't find an example of us getting rid of 15 players between NSD and fall practice. You won't find 10. You may not even find 5. There's a big difference between "I know they do it" and reality. At worst, you'll find that we've gone into NSD slightly over 60, knowing that we'll likely lose a few in the coming 6 months to injuries, academics, personal issues, disciplinary problems, or transfers just like most other schools.

You won't find evidence of Bama (and other SEC teams) giving impermissible benefits either, but everyone knows it is going on and has gone on for as long as the SEC has been around. When it comes to college football in SEC land, dirty is the only word to describe it. Always has been, always will be. That's what happens when a game is more important than learning to read and write.


I can't wait for you to go the way of the Allgator bird.


P.S. Trent Richardson's 2011 Yukon on rapper rims says hi. Trent Richardson's 2011 Yukon With Nice Rims -- Nothing To See Here : Outkick The Coverage

 

[Bishop2b5]

Exactly right. Richt is a decent coach but he has a ceiling and that ceiling was met this year. As long as UGA keeps him around they'll be stuck right where they're at. I believe Saban uses fuzzy math with his roster and I have a big suspicion that there might be PEDs being used in Tuscaloosa but I will say this about Saban: his players rarely have discipline problems.

UGA's in a tough situation. They're virtually guaranteed a winning season and probably 10+ wins every year with Richt, but that's all. Do you give that up and risk being bad or mediocre in exchange for a chance to be great? They're never going to get to the top of the mountain with him, but if they can him, who can they get that can guarantee them any better or not send them tumbling down the hill? Tough decision.

Saban doesn't use fuzzy math with his roster nearly as much as some believe, and probably not at all, though I doubt anything I can say or any evidence to the contrary will change anyone's mind if they've already made it up. As for PED's, we test for them and there's no way I can imagine Saban allowing them to be used. He suspended a projected starter in '10 for reportedly testing positive and the players are constantly warned about the health risks and that it will get you immediately suspended from the team. Strength & size aren't really a good indication of PED use. Extremely rapid increase in strength and size are. If you see a player put on 30 or 40 lbs of muscle and double his strength in less than a year, then you probably have a user, and we've had nothing like that happen.

You're right about Saban & discipline. He's seriously old school like Lombardi. There's not much wiggle room. You follow the rules, go to class, and keep your nose clean or you pack your **** and go home. Period. Some of what others are calling running players off to make room is nothing more than getting rid of players with bad attitudes or behavior problems and making an example of them for the others.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

OK, show me where Bama has had 70 on scholarship and still signed 25. Has it ever actually happened or is this just what you think must be going on or what someone else told you or just a convenient explanation for our success? We're back to "They do this! I know they do!!!" but can't show an example of it actually taking place. You can look all day, but you won't find an example of us getting rid of 15 players between NSD and fall practice. You won't find 10. You may not even find 5. There's a big difference between "I know they do it" and reality. At worst, you'll find that we've gone into NSD slightly over 60, knowing that we'll likely lose a few in the coming 6 months to injuries, academics, personal issues, disciplinary problems, or transfers just like most other schools.

I said "IF." My example was hypothetical to make a point. Alabama will sign 25+ every year...no matter what. ND won't if it means going over the 85 cap. That's all I'm saying. I get that Bama (and other schools that do this) may be within the rules. I get that they may be above avg in turnover/attrition. I understand EE and signing more than 25 if you know some are border line qualifiers, etc. I get it. My issue is that this is such a gray area for the NCAA that schools are interpreting this subject differently. The playing field needs to be leveled. I personally feel that the 85 cap should be enforced on NSD. If you sign a player that ends up not qualifying, that's your problem.

Say ND needed 23 signees to get to 85 this cycle. But they went ahead and signed 25 knowing that one might not qualify and a current roster player may transfer. Then player A ends up qualifying and player B ends up staying. Now what? Something has to give. Two kids need to be removed from scholarship or else ND is breaking rules. This is the issue, because this does happen. And it's how the excess of 85 is dealt with. Even if it's just one player. You can't tell me this doesn't happen.

 

[Bishop2b5]

You won't find evidence of Bama (and other SEC teams) giving impermissible benefits either, but everyone knows it is going on and has gone on for as long as the SEC has been around. When it comes to college football in SEC land, dirty is the only word to describe it. Always has been, always will be. That's what happens when a game is more important than learning to read and write.


I can't wait for you to go the way of the Allgator bird.


P.S. Trent Richardson's 2011 Yukon on rapper rims says hi. Trent Richardson's 2011 Yukon With Nice Rims -- Nothing To See Here : Outkick The Coverage

Sorry. If you can't prove something or even offer compelling evidence, there's a good reason not to believe it. That sort of mushy, emotional, "I just want it to be so" thinking won't fly in court, won't hold water in the field of science, and won't convince any intelligent, thinking person. Now, I may be a dumb old Southerner who can't read & write, and only have gone to Bama, but I did learn about Occam's razor, that you should choose your opinions based on facts and not choose your facts based on your opinions, and that what I want to be true is rarely as accurate as what the evidence tells me is true.

If any of what you said was true, don't you think the NCAA would have nailed us by now? Do you really think they haven't looked? Do you think they're that incapable? When there was something wrong going on, they had no trouble proving it in the past. You can't keep something that big involving hundreds of players, coaches and boosters quiet for very long. There's a reason they haven't "nailed" us for it. We aren't cheating. You just need to think so in order to explain away our success. Very common psychological tool for dealing with an unpleasant reality.

As for Allgator, he trolled you. He insulted ND and did his best to just aggravate you and disrupt things. I've done nothing of the kind. I've simply refused to sit back and let a small handful of you insult the school I love with distortions, ignorance, and dishonesty. I've never said a single negative thing about ND, and have in fact said several very positive things about your school. What you don't like is that all your self-serving BS insults, regional stereotypes, and willful distortions can't stand up to a little critical examination and presentation of facts. At least 90% of the people on this forum seem like bright, decent, knowledgeable fans. A few of you seem determined to be intentionally uninformed and willfully dishonest. I like the 90%. I have no tolerance for those who choose to act like the others, though.

Remember, everyone has a right to his own opinion. Nobody has a right to his own facts.