'13 IL RB Ty Isaac (Michigan Transfer)

Emcee77

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As you can see, Bryant and Isaac are rated very similarly, but the services think Isaac is appreciably better than Folston. He'd be our highest rated RB since James Aldridge.

After comparing their film, I'm not sure why Isaac is held in higher esteem. Is Folston penalized for his size and swimming in a big pond (FL)?

I guess you could put it that way, as Folston is compared with Bryant. Folston is a small running back, whereas Bryant has good size and "passes the eye test" (i.e. has scary looking muscles). I'd put it differently as Folston is compared with Isaac ... I don't know if smaller, lower-rated players are being penalized so much as Isaac is being rewarded. His rating recognizes that he represents a rare combination of size and elusiveness. I can hardly think of a player so big and so elusive at the same time.

It's interesting to think of it that way. All three players are the type of running back who makes plays primarily with his burst and his elusiveness. The services seem to reward guys who have the size to become power backs as well. Folston is the smallest, so seems the least likely to run over and through tacklers; Bryant is the next biggest, so next most likely; Isaac is the biggest, so most likely -- and their ratings go in that order. I'm not a professional scout, but I wonder if that's how the logic goes.

Another question would be whether that's how the logic SHOULD go. If a guy is going to make plays by eluding tacklers, it hardly matters how big he is, if he is elusive enough, right?
 
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Chi_IRISH

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Gentleman I'm sorry plays two or three good teams a year. He is a GOOD back but our class with Bryant and Folston? Is so much better! Trust it:)
 
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Ricochet

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O. K. let me start by saying I love the fact that come Wednesday that ND will most likely have Bryant and Folston but make no mistake that Ty Isaac is a special talent and would love to have him on board as well.

Why would the fact that he's 6'3 be a determent? I think height in the other direction is also overblown as well.

It's all about there game, IQ etc. etc. not about height because a 5'11 RB that runs upright is a bigger target with less leverage then say a 6'3 RB that gets low when needed. It's also about quickness, speed and agility.

As for ranking after the top 2 or 3 prospects at a position there really isn't much difference in talent with the next 5 to 15 prospects but when your ranking someone has to be in front of someone else at the point it's who's the better fit. This is also where bias comes in from the people who do the rankings and it can be based on speed, look, location the talent level etc. etc..

As for Ty Isaac, IMO he's among the elite of the elite IMO and even if ND has Bryant and Folston in the fold, you don't pass up on talent like that unless they are a cancer because he's that good.

Not only would Ty be the biggest RB of the bunch he would also be the fastest as well and that's why he's ranked that much high than Folston because he's quicker and bigger and when that's the case they are always going to rewarded for that even if they have less actually skills for the position.
 

Chi_IRISH

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I agree but can he stay healthy at the college level!?? He seems to be really injury prone at the High school level! Our guy Anthony Barr might have something to say about his success
 

NOLAIrish

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Noted.

You just picked 5 out of 7 guys that are bruising runners. Ty looks like a poor mans Matt Forte. And height can be important, it makes alot of runners run tall instead of staying low.

I'm not sure what the 5/7 line is intended to point out. I tried to represent a spread of runners: Deuce ran extremely upright (way more than Isaac), but was fast, had exceptional vision, and knew how to lower his shoulder when it mattered; Taylor was an exceptional athlete; Jacobs was a freak with below-average vision and limited agility; etc.

I think, more than any other position, we fans misunderstand what we're seeing with running back height/weight/speed measurables. If you were to survey the landscape of great college backs, you'd probably find that the overwhelming majority were within a couple of inches of 5'10, within say 10 lbs of 210, and run about a 4.6 +/- 0.1. As you moved up or down in height/weight, you'd see a dramatic drop-off in numbers. We look at this and say "5'10 210 is the ideal size for a running back." But it strikes me that 5'10 210 is also the most common body type for an athletic male -- i.e., 5'10 is average male height and 210 is about what you'd expect an average 5'10 male to weigh after 4 years of college-level weight training. There are simply more of them. And the distribution of athletic men certainly mirrors what you see among running backs. So, looking at the distribution of RB body types cannot, by itself, tell us whether having the typical body type is advantageous.

For that, you'd need to drill down deeper into the data. Do taller/shorter high school backs fail to live up to their ratings more often (assuming the ratings aren't already adjusting for height)? Do taller/shorter backs become bruisers/speed backs with disparate regularity independent of weight? If height is detrimental to body lean, why don't we see more MJD-type backs at the elite level? Etc.

My amateur guess is that what we'd find is that height/weight/speed measurables are fairly non-predictive of RB success and even of RB style. We focus on them because they're easily comparable, but they're way less important than more nebulous traits like vision, balance, and patience. Take an example from the backs I mentioned above. Michael Bush is one of the bigger backs at the NFL level and he accelerates faster than Deuce McAllister, who was a long-strider that built a head of steam over time. Given those two factors, we know that, as a matter of physics, stopping Bush requires way more momentum than does stopping McAllister. He runs with better body lean as well. Watch their tapes, though, and there's no way to argue that Bush is the superior bruiser. McAllister simply excelled at the qualitative dimensions of running over a guy: he had incredible balance and the innate ability to make contact at just the right angle to put the tackler in the ground without going down himself.

The Forte-Isaac comparison seems appropriate. Their tape looked somewhat similar, although Forte was much more raw than Isaac coming out. I remember when Tulane grabbed Forte (before moving on to ND, I graduated from Tulane shortly after Forte started there), he was expected to be too big and too slow to stay at running back. He was brought in as a fullback recruit, but his talent as a running back was too obvious to ignore.
 

Irish#1

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O. K. let me start by saying I love the fact that come Wednesday that ND will most likely have Bryant and Folston but make no mistake that Ty Isaac is a special talent and would love to have him on board as well.

Why would the fact that he's 6'3 be a determent? I think height in the other direction is also overblown as well.

It's all about there game, IQ etc. etc. not about height because a 5'11 RB that runs upright is a bigger target with less leverage then say a 6'3 RB that gets low when needed. It's also about quickness, speed and agility.

As for ranking after the top 2 or 3 prospects at a position there really isn't much difference in talent with the next 5 to 15 prospects but when your ranking someone has to be in front of someone else at the point it's who's the better fit. This is also where bias comes in from the people who do the rankings and it can be based on speed, look, location the talent level etc. etc..

As for Ty Isaac, IMO he's among the elite of the elite IMO and even if ND has Bryant and Folston in the fold, you don't pass up on talent like that unless they are a cancer because he's that good.

Not only would Ty be the biggest RB of the bunch he would also be the fastest as well and that's why he's ranked that much high than Folston because he's quicker and bigger and when that's the case they are always going to rewarded for that even if they have less actually skills for the position.

Being 6'3" wouldn't be a detriment. I know Eric Dickerson was listed at 6'3", but I think he might have been closer to 6'5". When he played for the Colts my son and I met him after a game in street clothes and he certainly appeard much taller than 6'3". I alos remember him in the huddles and he was as tall or taller than everyone in the huddle.
 
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Buster Bluth

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All of this 6'3 being too tall makes me seriously shake my head. There has to be some sort of mental effect (similar to cognitive dissonance) where fans see players for their team as superior and players for other teams as inferior for _____ reason. If he were Irish, at least from the start, we'd all be proclaiming him the next Beanie Wells or something.
 

yankeeND

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All of this 6'3 being too tall makes me seriously shake my head. There has to be some sort of mental effect (similar to cognitive dissonance) where fans see players for their team as superior and players for other teams as inferior for _____ reason. If he were Irish, at least from the start, we'd all be proclaiming him the next Beanie Wells or something.

That's probably true. I like the kids skills a lot, and wouldn't mind it one bit if be ended up here! I just wonder if he could play another position? Doesn't mean he wouldn't play RB here, more so I'm curious of his versatility.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Or let the staff figure out where he fits best?

(You know I have heard they are pretty good at that.)
 

Emcee77

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Fwiw, I noticed while watching his film that Isaac has a really long neck. He may be 6'3" but it looks like his pads are at the level of a guy who is more like 6'1". I realize that's still pretty tall for a running back, but I don't think he's quite as tall as his listed height makes it seem ... if that makes any sense.
 
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PANDFAN

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Fwiw, I noticed while watching his film thatIsaac has a really l ong neck. He may be 6'3" but it looks like his pads are at the level of a guy who is more like 6'1". I realize that's still pretty tall for a running back, but I don't think he's quite as tall as his listed height makes it seem ... if that makes any sense.


like steve grogan??
 

Emcee77

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ha, i was thinking more of Harvey Williams for the Raiders about 15 years back. Chris Berman used to say stuff like, "Williams longnecks his way to the 22 ..."
 

Irish YJ

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Fwiw, I noticed while watching his film that Isaac has a really long neck. He may be 6'3" but it looks like his pads are at the level of a guy who is more like 6'1". I realize that's still pretty tall for a running back, but I don't think he's quite as tall as his listed height makes it seem ... if that makes any sense.

Noticed this same thing. He's got like 6inches of neck. Is there surgery for that?
 

GoldenIsThyFame

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Kid is huge

776053.jpg
 

IrishLax

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I'm sorry but he is overrated and that isn't sour grapes. I, and many others, have been saying that since well before he picked USC. 247 has him as a top 10 RB and middle 4 star... that's about right. The rest of the industry has him as a top 3 RB and 5 star... that's ridiculous.

He's so similar to Marc Tyler coming out of high school as a prospect. He needs to play linebacker. He would be a stone cold stud with his size and athleticism as a LB. At RB it's very hard to see him living up to being a high round NFL player. For every Brandon Jacobs that sorta makes it there are many more tall RBs that fail. His best bet is to add a lot more mass if he wants to play RB in college and at the next level.
 

ThePiombino

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I'm sorry but he is overrated and that isn't sour grapes. I, and many others, have been saying that since well before he picked USC. 247 has him as a top 10 RB and middle 4 star... that's about right. The rest of the industry has him as a top 3 RB and 5 star... that's ridiculous.

He's so similar to Marc Tyler coming out of high school as a prospect. He needs to play linebacker. He would be a stone cold stud with his size and athleticism as a LB. At RB it's very hard to see him living up to being a high round NFL player. For every Brandon Jacobs that sorta makes it there are many more tall RBs that fail. His best bet is to add a lot more mass if he wants to play RB in college and at the next level.

I kind of agree with this assessment.
 

jerboski

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Not impressed at all with him during this game, had no explosion and seemed to go down rather easily for his size. Im stoked we have Greg and Folston
 

Chi_IRISH

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That's the knock on him here in Chicago. Kid was hurt the last three years, personally I like him to a Kyle Prater type of player and have a hard time believing that he will play a bunch at SC. I hope I'm wrong because I wish nothing more then this new core of linebackers to crack him Manti style!
 

jerboski

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Still talks with Notre Dame and people beginning to feel he may be really rethinking his commitment to USC, wouldnt be surprised if he ends up here
 

Whiskeyjack

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Still talks with Notre Dame and people beginning to feel he may be really rethinking his commitment to USC, wouldnt be surprised if he ends up here

Unless he wants to play ILB, I don't see how we could take him. We're already at 9/8 for RB/ Z WR in 2013. And our defensive backfield is even more crowded, so moving some of those guys to defense doesn't really solve anything.
 

DANsanity15

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Folston could go to corner, where he started in the AA game. I don't see it hurting Bryant, Cierre and Theo were similar RB types and that worked pretty well for us, and I've heard from everyone that Onwualu is going to play reciever.. Plus, everyone here seems to still want PW... Why not move Folston to corner and bring in Isaac as the other back?... Seems perfectly logical.
 
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