Nose Tackle/ D-Line Discussion

[HereComeTheIrish]

This is not a "lol" situation and it's a little insulting to hear that. It is not the case that you just throw anyone in there. Every position has specific duties which can be performed at higher or lower effectiveness by the player on the field.

Lou Nix is perfect for the NT position and others are not. We DEMONSTRABLY have no one else who can operate at that position at near his level. Ask Manti. Saying that there is no need "lol" to attempt to recruit someone of Nix's attributes because we can just sling anyone on our roster into any space on the D-line is a great fantasy if you are willing to take a step down in the impenetrability that Lou brings to many goalline and third and very short plays.

Can we make up some of the ground by having Tuitts or Vanderdoes surrounding a non-Lou? Yeh, but why not shoot for the best like Kelly seems to try anyway? "lol" indeed.

Couldn't agree more as I also find TP's "holier than thou" point of view to be a wee bit flippant. Take nothing for granted, Lads. Nothing.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

I don't understand the, "Nix is just a luxury in our defense" talk. We got to the NCG by having a great defense and Nix is is big reason why and that is just a luxury? DE's filling gaps in the middle on running downs? Ok. I hope it works.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

I don't understand the, "Nix is just a luxury in our defense" talk. We got to the NCG by having a great defense and Nix is is big reason why and that is just a luxury? We don't need a NT to set the line on 1st and 2nd down against the run? Ok. I hope it works.

Spot on, Brah...

 

[Grahambo]

You absolutely need a true NG or two. You can go NASCAR on the pass rush as the Giants have done when Tuck would move inside but you still need a big body to clog the hole. If you don't then the undersized DL will get pushed out of the way. If you say Nix is a luxury and you see how the defense has performed, how could you not try to gain another Nix?

As much as I love Kap, a healthy Barrett Jones would have an easier time against him then Nix.

 

[autry_denson]

This is not a "lol" situation and it's a little insulting to hear that. It is not the case that you just throw anyone in there. Every position has specific duties which can be performed at higher or lower effectiveness by the player on the field.

Lou Nix is perfect for the NT position and others are not. We DEMONSTRABLY have no one else who can operate at that position at near his level. Ask Manti. Saying that there is no need "lol" to attempt to recruit someone of Nix's attributes because we can just sling anyone on our roster into any space on the D-line is a great fantasy if you are willing to take a step down in the impenetrability that Lou brings to many goalline and third and very short plays.

Can we make up some of the ground by having Tuitts or Vanderdoes surrounding a non-Lou? Yeh, but why not shoot for the best like Kelly seems to try anyway? "lol" indeed.

Thank you. Without the 'lol', the original message might provoke some good-natured debate. with the two 'lol's, its grating, condescending, annoying as sh!t. More generally, the world - and more specifically this site - would be a much better place if that annoying intervention of the internet, lol, were permanently banished - or if those who use it learned to make the exact same points without the condescension tacked on.

mods feel free to delete this - just had to write it even tho I know I'm sidetracking things further. apologies for that.

 

[dyrtdogg]

As much as I love Kap, a healthy Barrett Jones would have an easier time against him then Nix.

As would a slightly unwell Barrett Jones

 

[johnnykillz]

I think TP was pointing out ability for reciprocating between DT/NT such as Geno Atkins rather than a pure Wilfork-style player like Nix.

I prefer a Nix, but having a Jared Allen x 3 would be a great problem to have. Maybe throw in a Watt.

Cheer up fvckers happy new year!

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Maybe I read it wrong but didn't TP just say that the system works without a huge NT that can't be moved.

It is a luxury to have a Nix i.e. chances are you won't have one on your team every year, so you build a Line with players who can move around.

And he never said not to take EV ??

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I think TP was pointing out ability for reciprocating between DT/NT such as Geno Atkins rather than a pure Wilfork-style player like Nix.

I prefer a Nix, but having a Jared Allen x 3 would be a great problem to have. Maybe throw in a Watt.

Cheer up fvckers happy new year!

I agree. I don't care for the tone, but I enjoy the insight and he has been saying this for awhile. I've heard/read quotes from this staff multiple times about how they prefer to have a defense where guys are interchangeable. It keeps opposing offenses off balance when certain packages aren't being subsituted in their respective situations. A defense that has the athletes to handle all of the mental and physical duties within each packages won't be a give away like a substitution would. With that said, no way do you not recruit the next Big Lou. He's what we call a "difference maker" in the biz. Without him, this defense is great, but most likely not elite. That could be the difference between 12-0 and 10-2, just sayin. I hope EV comes on board. Perhaps not for NT, but just to further strengthen this DL and this defense.

 

[woolybug25]

I agree. I don't care for the tone

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Gd7htfeXCO4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Maybe I read it wrong but didn't TP just say that the system works without a huge NT that can't be moved.

It is a luxury to have a Nix i.e. chances are you won't have one on your team every year, so you build a Line with players who can move around.

And he never said not to take EV ??

You are correct and other people just have different opinions. I don't think it has anything to do with trusting the staff either. Some people think we will just rotate guys around on every down and others think the staff will prepare a player or two to be the NG after Nix.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

 

[johnnykillz]

Got a microphone here: testing one two.

Got a backup: don't like feedback!

What's up!?

What's up?

 

[Irish#1]

You absolutely need a true NG or two. You can go NASCAR on the pass rush as the Giants have done when Tuck would move inside but you still need a big body to clog the hole. If you don't then the undersized DL will get pushed out of the way. If you say Nix is a luxury and you see how the defense has performed, how could you not try to gain another Nix?

As much as I love Kap, a healthy Barrett Jones would have an easier time against him then Nix.

+1

I also think you can't play a 6'7" guy at NT even if he has long arms. A guy that size has trouble keeping his level low and can get moved off the line easier.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think we need to separate the impact of Nix as an individual from the physical profile one needs to excel at NT.

Nix is a first-round talent, and he's been a huge part of our recent defensive renaissance. Anyone seeking to diminish his contribution to this title run deserves to be ridiculed.

Conversely, there has been much hand-wringing over the fact that Nix is a prototypical NT and that we have no one else resembling his physical profile on the roster. It has certainly been a concern for me as well, but upon further reflection, it seems a silly thing to worry about.

ND's coaching staff has known Nix would be likely be gone after either the 2012 or 2013 season, and yet they haven't managed to recruit anyone else like him. Given their success at recruiting and player development, I have a hard time believing this is the result of failure or incompetence. Hell, we allegedly had a chance to take Tommy Schutt and turned him away in favor of Sheldon Day, an explosive pass rusher who does not fit the NT prototype.

Since Kelly's arrival, we've seen several different body types playing Diaco's 0-tech: Ian Williams (6'1'', 305 lbs), Sean Cwynar (6'4'', 285 lbs), Kona Schwenke (6'4'', 290 lbs), Tony Springmann (6'6'', 300 lbs), and Louis Nix (6'3'', 340 lbs.). Nix has obviously been the best, but how much of that is due simply to his physical profile?

Our coaching staff does not seem to recruit separately for DE and DT. Instead, the strategy seems to be the same as on OL-- recruit athletic "Bigs" and see where they shake out later. The most athletic prospects play OT, and the less athletic prospects get moved inside to OG.

Similarly, our most athletic DL tend to play DE (because they do a fair amount of pass-rushing), and our less athletic DL move inside to focus on two-gapping. If they've got the frame and a good work ethic, Longo can mold them into immovable objects. Nobody foresaw Schwenke and Springmann at NT, and yet there they are.

I'm starting the ramble here, so I'll quickly get back to my point: the staff clearly isn't concerned with finding another prototypical NT, so we shouldn't be either.

And that's no knock on Nix; there's bound to be some drop in positional productivity whenever a 1st round talent leaves. But we're probably getting worked up over nothing here.

 

[Bobias]

If he comes here and is destined to play end, one would have to assume the staff is thinking Day is Nix's replacement, no?

I really think that Springmann will end up being replacing Louis Nix after next year. He is an absolute mountain of a human being and is still gaining strength as he has only been in the program for less than two years. He seems to be the type of gorilla style NG that will thrive in a 3-4.

 

[TheTurningPoint]

It wasn't meant as a "holier than thou" post at all. This has been the biggest debate for the last 3 months on here. All I was saying that to run the defense, you don't need a bigass DT in there. Is it nice, yes. I dont know much, but common sense says that IF the staff felt they needed a replacement for Nix or needed a big NG they would have recruited one this year. And with Vanderdoes stating ND doesnt want him at NG is very telling.

 

[PANDFAN]

I really think that Springmann will end up being replacing Louis Nix after next year. He is an absolute mountain of a human being and is still gaining strength as he has only been in the program for less than two years. He seems to be the type of gorilla style NG that will thrive in a 3-4.

i get what your saying but i personally feel from my coaching couch that he is just too tall to really be effective at the NG position...day would be my guess as he is very compact, quick and held his own as a freshman...springman due to his length will get and has gotten pushed around by sheer physics...you want gap control and enticing them to double team you as then our lb's get the tackle...but w/ springman being tall...the center/guard is able to move him easier because once he gets stood up, his center of gravity is gone because they will get better leverage more time than not...just my .02

 

[BleedBlueGold]

It's too bad Kona didn't have that extra year. He would've been a perfect gap-filler between Lou's departure and the next '14 NT recruit.

I agree w/ PANDFAN that Day may be next in line. However, we're not sure where the staff projects Jones. He could grow into a monster NT over the next two years. (He could also play DE or OT...who knows).

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Why doesn't anyone see Isaac Rochelle as a natural to fill in for Louis?

 

[ThePiombino]

I think we need to separate the impact of Nix as an individual from the physical profile one needs to excel at NT.

Nix is a first-round talent, and he's been a huge part of our recent defensive renaissance. Anyone seeking to diminish his contribution to this title run deserves to be ridiculed.

Conversely, there has been much hand-wringing over the fact that Nix is a prototypical NT and that we have no one else resembling his physical profile on the roster. It has certainly been a concern for me as well, but upon further reflection, it seems a silly thing to worry about.

ND's coaching staff has known Nix would be likely be gone after either the 2012 or 2013 season, and yet they haven't managed to recruit anyone else like him. Given their success at recruiting and player development, I have a hard time believing this is the result of failure or incompetence. Hell, we allegedly had a chance to take Tommy Schutt and turned him away in favor of Sheldon Day, an explosive pass rusher who does not fit the NT prototype.

Since Kelly's arrival, we've seen several different body types playing Diaco's 0-tech: Ian Williams (6'1'', 305 lbs), Sean Cwynar (6'4'', 285 lbs), Kona Schwenke (6'4'', 290 lbs), Tony Springmann (6'6'', 300 lbs), and Louis Nix (6'3'', 340 lbs.). Nix has obviously been the best, but how much of that is due simply to his physical profile?

Our coaching staff does not seem to recruit separately for DE and DT. Instead, the strategy seems to be the same as on OL-- recruit athletic "Bigs" and see where they shake out later. The most athletic prospects play OT, and the less athletic prospects get moved inside to OG.

Similarly, our most athletic DL tend to play DE (because they do a fair amount of pass-rushing), and our less athletic DL move inside to focus on two-gapping. If they've got the frame and a good work ethic, Longo can mold them into immovable objects. Nobody foresaw Schwenke and Springmann at NT, and yet there they are.

I'm starting the ramble here, so I'll quickly get back to my point: the staff clearly isn't concerned with finding another prototypical NT, so we shouldn't be either.

And that's no knock on Nix; there's bound to be some drop in positional productivity whenever a 1st round talent leaves. But we're probably getting worked up over nothing here.

Great post. Reps.

It wasn't meant as a "holier than thou" post at all. This has been the biggest debate for the last 3 months on here. All I was saying that to run the defense, you don't need a bigass DT in there. Is it nice, yes. I dont know much, but common sense says that IF the staff felt they needed a replacement for Nix or needed a big NG they would have recruited one this year. And with Vanderdoes stating ND doesnt want him at NG is very telling.

Someone must have pissed in their Cheerios yesterday. I didn't think it came across as holier than thou, for what it's worth.

I think something can be said for the fact that the staff has seemingly been able to get damn-near everyone they wanted, or at the very least (with the exception of DB last year), filled every need. The fact that they have had chances to get "prpto" DTs and have passed on them definitely does say something.

 

[ulukinatme]

I just want to leave this:
ICON - Stanford Game Day - YouTube

"Lou, they can't block you! You're the best nose guard in the whole country."

I kinda agree with this guy, he knows what he's talking about. I don't think we can replace Big Lou easily, but I would love to see someone with his build and skill set to try and fill his shoes once he decides to go.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Why doesn't anyone see Isaac Rochelle as a natural to fill in for Louis?

I think it's mostly due to the differences in their physical profiles: Rochell is 6'5'', 260 and Nix is 6'3'', 340. Most assume he's too long and lean to play NT, but Schwenke and Springmann challenge that assumption.

Based on his tape, I think Rochell's combination of athleticism, strength and length make him a better fit at DE, hopefully in the Tuitt mold.

 

[Irish#1]

I think it's mostly due to the differences in their physical profiles: Rochell is 6'5'', 260 and Nix is 6'3'', 340. Most assume he's too long and lean to play NT, but Schwenke and Springmann challenge that assumption.

Based on his tape, I think Rochell's combination of athleticism, strength and length make him a better fit at DE, hopefully in the Tuitt mold.

Agree, Rochell would need to add weight so he wouldn't get rooted out on the runs inside.