Opinions/Discussions on Guns

brandonnash

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Didn't work out well for these guys trying to kill the criminal.

Shopping mall shooting in Tacoma, Washington
As a rampage unfolded in 2005, a civilian with a concealed-carry permit named Brendan McKown confronted the assailant with his handgun. The shooter pumped several bullets into McKown, wounding six people before eventually surrendering to police after a hostage standoff. A comatose McKown eventually recovered after weeks in the hospital.

Courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas
In 2005, a civilian named Mark Wilson, who was a firearms instructor, fired his licensed handgun at a man on a rampage at the county courthouse. Wilson was shot dead by the body-armored assailant, who wielded an AK-47.

Such actions in chaotic situations don't just put the well-intentioned citizen at risk, of course. According to Robert McMenomy, an assistant special agent in charge in the San Francisco division of the FBI, they increase the danger for innocent bystanders. (Exhibit A: the gun-wielding guy who came really close to shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded.) They also make it more difficult for law enforcement officers to do their jobs. "In a scenario like that," McMenomy told me in a recent conversation, "they wouldn't know who was good or who was bad, and it would divert them from the real threat."

It could always go wrong if you try to stop a man with a gun, but I would take my chances in trying to help someone else in a case like that. Here are some examples to help out with this discussion since you packed it with your 2 examples.

http://http://www.americanrifleman.org/BlogList.aspx?cid=25&id=21

After locking up, a female employee of Cakes and Confections 4U was leaving the business through a back door when she realized she was cornered by two strange men. One man struck her in the jaw while the other ripped off her necklace and earrings. When the men then attempted to sexually assault the woman, she produced a concealed .32 cal. firearm from her waistband and fired. Both men immediately dropped the stolen jewelry and ran. It was last reported that the assailants were still at large. After the incident, the woman said her firearm saved her life and that she had a strong message to all women, “If you don’t have a gun or you’re scared of guns, get familiar with them and get a gun.” (FOX Carolina 21, Landrum, SC, 8/29/12)

Pharmacist John Agyemang was working alone around 2 p.m. at Jolin’s Pharmacy when an armed man entered and demanded painkillers. Agyemang distracted the robber by telling him there was someone entering the store. When the suspect turned around, Agyemang dashed to the store’s back room where he kept his gun. According to police, multiple shots were fired and the suspect was able to get away on a mountain bike. It is unknown whether or not the suspect was wounded. There were no other reported injuries. (CBS, Winslow Township, NJ, 9/12/12)

From The Armed Citizen Archives
December 1979: Dr. Herbert B. Frank was working late at his Philadelphia, Pa., office when two men, one armed with a pistol, waited until the office was empty and then announced a holdup. Frank, who wears a .38 cal. revolver under his smock, drew his gun and fired twice, killing one man and seriously wounding the other. (The Inquirer, Philadelphia, Pa.)

Scott Stith was in his bedroom when he heard a loud crash coming from the first floor of his home. He grabbed his .45 cal. pistol and crept downstairs to investigate. He spotted the silhouette of a man, but did not fire because he had teenage sons in the house and was not 100 percent sure of his target. He called out only to discover the man was an intruder who had broken through the glass of the back door. Stith held the 29-year-old intruder at gunpoint until police arrived. Everyone involved was reportedly unharmed. (Sandusky Register., Milan, OH, 9/29/12)

Just before 2 a.m., a 25-year-old man shot another man in the head at Bonnie’s Food and Spirits after he was asked to leave. He then fatally shot another customer outside the pub. When he pointed his pistol at Mark Ktytor, however, Ktytor produced his own firearm and fired multiple rounds, leaving the assailant in critical condition. The suspect will be charged with criminal homicide and attempted homicide upon his release from the hospital. (The Times-Tribune, Plymouth, PA, 9/11/12)

Two armed men stormed into a Dollar General store one evening and attempted to rob it. While the men held the store manager at gunpoint, a 57-year-old man carrying a concealed .45 cal. handgun, who had been shopping at the store at the time of the robbery, took action. The customer did not hesitate to draw his gun and fire at the suspects. One of the men robbing the store suffered fatal wounds to the head, chest and shoulder. The second suspect fled, but was later caught and charged with robbery and felony murder. There were reportedly no other injuries. (The Florida Times-Union, Jacksonville, FL, 8/29/12)

From The Armed Citizen Archives:
December 1985: Willie Griffin had forced a robber out of his Florence, Calif., store and was phoning police when the man returned. As the robber came at him with a piece of steel pipe, the shopkeeper mortally wounded him with a single shot from his handgun. (The Times, Los Angeles, Calif.)

Brianne Rodriguez heard a knock at her front door just before 9 a.m., but ignored it. A few minutes later, Rodriguez heard loud noises coming from her bedroom. When she went to investigate, she discovered a man wearing a ski mask in her home. The confrontation led to a struggle and Rodriguez was pushed to the floor and kicked in the face and ribs. The masked man then grabbed her screaming 2-year-old daughter and bolted for the door. Rodriguez quickly retrieved a shotgun she kept in her bedroom and followed. Upon seeing the gun, the man dropped the child and fled. He escaped with Rodriguez’s purse and some jewelry, but Rodriguez and her daughter sustained no serious injuries. (KSEE 24 NEWS, Fresno County, CA, 8/28/12)

When the ex-husband of a woman living at Windmill Cove Apartments was not granted access to his ex-wife’s home by employees of the apartment complex, he warned that he would kick in the door. His ex-wife and a 35-year-old male friend were inside when they heard yelling and someone violently kicking the door. When the door gave way and the man came inside, the friend fired several rounds from his handgun. The man suffered multiple gunshot wounds that proved fatal. (KSL, Sandy, UT, 9/2/12)


The list goes on and on. These are all people who defended themselves or others with firearms. Without them there we would almost certainly hear about more deaths in these instances.
 

GoIrish41

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Or just completely discredit what they're saying.


You're right. Some people can never have their minds changed. I understand that. But I was one who did have their mind changed. I was raised in my family full on in your face democrat. I followed along because it seemed right. What they were saying made sense. This was before I looked into things for myself. Things that made sense to me no longer did once a little research was done. I am now one of 2 conservatives in my family, my father being the 2nd after I showed him some things. The rest will live with their ill regard for common sense, facts, and disbelief of what this nation was founded upon.

I am one that would feel safer having a gun with me if confronted by some criminal trying to rob me with a gun. If the rest of you want to spew numbers about gun crimes to him and try to lull him into submission by all means go ahead. If that doesn't work you can always try to hug him to death.

yes brandonash you completely discredited what I've been saying. you are a rock when it comes to your views because you did a couple of hours of google searches on GOP-leaning web sites that changed your whole perspective on life. And with that vast knowledge, you have completely discredited what I'm saying. lol
 

Irish Houstonian

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Go Irish41:

as they say:
"Never wrestle with a pig.....you both get dirty, but the pig likes it."

you are doing yoemans work making your points but some can/will never be swayed on this issue.

they will take you in every direction, false comparison imaginable to divert the attention from the real problem.

Ah, the old "our opinion is the good fight, and their opinion is Darth Vader".

Guys, these are just peoples' preferences here -- there are no right or wrong answers.
 

Irish#1

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1. So by your logic, because cars aren't SUPPOSSED to kill people, the fact that drunk drivers kill almost the same amount of innocent people every year as guns, it is somehow more acceptable!? Ask the mother/father/brother/sister of someone killed by a drunk driver. When you lose a loved one I don't think the intent makes it any easier on them.

2.If you have commited a felony and purchase a firearm from a gun/trade show than you have just commited another crime. If you read my previous post you would see that I've already said this law needs to be changed. But, it's just another example of how criminals do not obey laws.

When did this tread turn into a drunk driving thread? And when it did, when did I become an advocate for drunk driving? I'm not saying it is more acceptable at all. Indeed, I believe drunk drivers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But, more than anything, I'm saying we aren't even talking about drunk drivers. This is a tread about guns , dammit! Why are we trying to change the subject?

There are way more laws that have to do with the ownership and operation of motor vehicles than their are for guns and I think this is idiotic. I would further argue, if the drunk driving laws that are currently in place across the states were not in place, the number of people killed in drunk driving accidents might be much, much higher. That being the case, I think that stronger gun laws are certainly a step in the right direction to curb gun violence. Some would argue they won't do any good, I'd argue that they can't hurt.

As I have said, my orginial post on this topic as that the owner of the gun should be held accountable if that gun gets into the hands of someone who should not have a gun and uses it in the commission of a crime. It is about accepting the responsibility when exercising ones right to own a gun.

If you want to equate the two, we keep making drunk driving laws and penalties stiffer and stiffer, along with more education and commercials warning of the dangers and it appears to be working.
 

Irish Houstonian

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If you want to equate the two, we keep making drunk driving laws and penalties stiffer and stiffer, along with more education and commercials warning of the dangers and it appears to be working.

But gun-advocates want to protect the "law-abiding gun-owner" more than anything. But drunk drivers are criminals, by definition.

So like drunk-driving, if someone wanted to make the penalties stiffer and stiffer for crimes committed with a gun, I think the NRA would actually favor that.
 

chicago51

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But gun-advocates want to protect the "law-abiding gun-owner" more than anything. But drunk drivers are criminals, by definition.

So like drunk-driving, if someone wanted to make the penalties stiffer and stiffer for crimes committed with a gun, I think the NRA would actually favor that.

So you admit pro gun advocates are just being selfish?
 

Irish#1

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This is what I meant above. There was a problem a few years ago with unqualified foreign nationals brought in to drive trucks, because they could be paid slave wages. A number of companies tried to skirt the law and take money out of peoples mouthes. (If you want to save money, ship by rail.) What stopped this idiotic plan? Financial gain. The money sucked out of the scheme so fast because insurance rates escalated so high. Force people to insure high capacity weapons. Watch what happens.

This is what I've been saying. We have way too many creative people in this country not to be able to solve this problem. It needs to be a collective group of ideas like this, along with better background checks, required training, elimination of guns being sold at gun shows (ship them after a wait period), severe penalties including imprisonment for sellers of guns who do not follow the law, no sale of automatic weapons, restrictions on clip size for semi automatic weapons, etc.. Of course this would require some flexibility by the NRA.
 

Irish#1

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But gun-advocates want to protect the "law-abiding gun-owner" more than anything. But drunk drivers are criminals, by definition.

So like drunk-driving, if someone wanted to make the penalties stiffer and stiffer for crimes committed with a gun, I think the NRA would actually favor that.

I may be wrong, but I don't recall the NRA ever advocating anything like this.
 

chicago51

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This is what I've been saying. We have way too many creative people in this country not to be able to solve this problem. It needs to be a collective group of ideas like this, along with better background checks, required training, elimination of guns being sold at gun shows (ship them after a wait period), severe penalties including imprisonment for sellers of guns who do not follow the law, no sale of automatic weapons, restrictions on clip size for semi automatic weapons, etc.. Of course this would require some flexibility by the NRA.

Yes when the United States wanted to build an atomic bomb. We got the greatest minds in the country together and basically locked them in a room and said do this. Why can't we do the same on mass shootings or gun violence in general? Why can't we do this to solve the energy crisis? Other than lobyist spending money to prevent these things there is no reason.

Yes I say get the smartest people together and lets fix this.
 

brandonnash

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yes brandonash you completely discredited what I've been saying. you are a rock when it comes to your views because you did a couple of hours of google searches on GOP-leaning web sites that changed your whole perspective on life. And with that vast knowledge, you have completely discredited what I'm saying. lol

Sorry about the San Fran/Sacramento thing. "Facts" from your side of the aisle are usually plagued with inaccuracies so I just assumed you couldn't remember the city either. Could the one you're talking about be the one in San Fran where the airport security killed 3 neighbors then himself in '99? Still doesn't match your recollection that seems to be from some cheap b rated movies.
 

Downinthebend

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Yes when the United States wanted to build an atomic bomb. We got the greatest minds in the country together and basically locked them in a room and said do this. Why can't we do the same on mass shootings or gun violence in general? Why can't we do this to solve the energy crisis? Other than lobyist spending money to prevent these things there is no reason.

Yes I say get the smartest people together and lets fix this.

I'm all for any solution that won't compromise or infringe rights, however if the answer is to change those rights then it should be done correctly: not by congressional law, but by a constitutional amendment (not some ruling by the supreme court to twist the words of the constitution, as most can agree that the supreme court is not infalliable).
 
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GoIrish41

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The NRA represents the interests of the gun-makers, not necessarily the gun-owners.

This is the clearest representation of political corruption in this country that I can think of. It is all about the money and there is a lot of money to be made on guns in this country. They pad the pockets of representatives to minimize the impact of new laws that would hurt business, and the representatives that support them do so despite the will or the safety and security of the country or even the NRA's membership. Look at the polling on gun control -- almost 70 percent of those who identify themselves with the NRA believe that automatic weapons and large capacity clips should be outlawed, but the NRA continues to defend these deadly weapons, arguing that more guns is the answer. I'm not sure this country will ever wake up.
 

GoIrish41

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Sorry about the San Fran/Sacramento thing. "Facts" from your side of the aisle are usually plagued with inaccuracies so I just assumed you couldn't remember the city either. Could the one you're talking about be the one in San Fran where the airport security killed 3 neighbors then himself in '99? Still doesn't match your recollection that seems to be from some cheap b rated movies.

Nope, it was in an office building in downtown San Francisco. It might have been 10 or 15 years ago. As I said, it was the building next to my uncle's office and he and all his co-workers were in complete lockdown for hours. I spoke to him a day or two after the incident and he told me all about it. All they knew that day was that someone opened fire in the building next door and that six people were killed. It wasn't until he got home that night that he heard it was a security guard who worked there who was, if memory serves, having some marital problems and just went off. That security guard was a law-abiding citizen too, until he wasn't.
 

chicago51

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I'm all for any solution that won't compromise or infringe rights, however if the answer is to change those rights then it should be done correctly: not by congressional law, but by a constitutional amendment (not some ruling by the supreme court to twist the words of the constitution, as most can agree that the supreme court is not infalliable).

What if our side just appoints the Supreme Court justices we want when your guys retire (got some old conservatives justices that could retire soon) and we just change the interpretation of the 2nd amendment lol?
 

JadeBrecks

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2. Opposed required background checks on every gun sale. Forty percent of all gun sales legally take place without background checks on the purchaser, because federal law doesn’t require them for so-called “private” gun sales at places like gun shows. Eighty percent of gun crimes involve guns purchased in this fashion. NRA members recognize how dangerous this law is; 69 percent of them support a “proposal requiring all gun sellers at gun shows to conduct criminal background checks of the people buying guns.” Yet the NRA opposes any effort to close this loophole, calling it “a stepping stone for gun control advocates seeking to ban all private sales, even among family and friends.”

I don't know if anyone knows this or not and I'm sick of hearing it said this way. The gun sales that they are talking about are the same sales that happen if I were to sell a gun to my friend at my house or anywhere else on the planet. If you purchase a gun from a vendor at a gun show you still have to fill out a 4473 (link below) and get a background check called in on you.

I hate the way the media is writing a lot of this stuff. It is highly misleading. If I personally sell a gun to a person in the gun show, out front the gun show, or anywhere else there is no background check required but I am responsible if I sell that gun to someone I shouldn't. The gun show has nothing to do with the sale.

I'm sure most people know this too but this is another misleading thing the media likes to pull. A Semi-Automatic firearm is not an automatic. A full auto firearm (class 3) after you pull the trigger will fire the round chambered, strip off the next round out of the magazine (not clip), load it into the chamber, and will repeat the process over and over till you run out of ammunition or you remove your finger from the trigger. A Semi-Auto firearm when you pull the trigger will fire the round in the chamber, strip the next round off the magazine, load it into the chamber, and that is it. If you stand there holding the trigger down you fire one round and that is it. You have to pull the trigger for every round you wish to fire.

Last one. An ar-15 is not an "assault riffle". If you want an assault rifle take a look at what our military is using. I am not referring to the looks of the guns either. The weapons our military uses are automatic rifles whether they be full-auto or three round burst and come in shorter barrel lengths. Those guns are designed to sweep through buildings efficiently. That style assault rifle is a class 3 rifle and you and I can't go down and buy it without serious checks and giving the government serious liberty to make sure you are following all the rules. The ar-15 is simply a good look alike. It is no different than any other semi-auto rifle on the market. If you know how to use it you can produce the same results from any semi-auto rifle be it an ar-15, ak-47 "assault rifles", or not.

Not trying to ruffle everyone's feathers I'm just putting info out there for anyone who may be uninformed on any of these topics and is being tricked by the way some of this is being presented.

http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf
 

GoIrish41

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What if our side just appoints the Supreme Court justices we want when your guys retire (got some old conservatives justices that could retire soon) and we just change the interpretation of the 2nd amendment lol?

Now we're talking.
 

Irish Houstonian

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So you admit pro gun advocates are just being selfish?

Yes -- everyone's "selfish", in that they're just out to serve whatever policies they personally prefer. The only truly "selfless" person is the one who advances public policies he or she hates. But that's another economic discussion altogether.
 

brandonnash

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I will have a look for that.

Let me say also to you and anyone else on here that I have disagreed with, completely not personal, I, just like a lot of you, get passionate about my beliefs. If I offend anyone I am sorry. Not my intent. We are all Irish fans here just we have different opinions. I will stick to my guns like they say and if you don't want to that's fine too.
 

chicago51

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For whatever it is worth Batman is against guns.

This has got to change people's minds doesn't it?

23751063.jpg
 
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GoIrish41

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Sorry about the San Fran/Sacramento thing. "Facts" from your side of the aisle are usually plagued with inaccuracies so I just assumed you couldn't remember the city either. Could the one you're talking about be the one in San Fran where the airport security killed 3 neighbors then himself in '99? Still doesn't match your recollection that seems to be from some cheap b rated movies.

Here is a smattering of other security guard-related shootings I found in a quick search. They range overzealous WalMart security guards to rampage shooters. Not sure if you were suggesting that I'm not being truthful about the security guard shooter in San Fran, but whatever. just know that this is not an unusual occurance. You give some guys authority and a gun it is a recipe for disaster.

Walmart Security Guard Kills a Shoplifting: A Mother Shot Dead In a Parking Lot - YouTube

Stand Your Ground: Security Guard Kills Man At Strip Club | Loop21

Security guard opens fire, kills replacement at Houston shopping center | FOX6Now.com – Milwaukee News & weather from WITI Television FOX6

Lockheed guard kills worker, self

Buffalo News Security Guard Kills Son

Wife says security guard killed husband at Cobb apartment | www.wsbtv.com

Kijuan Byrd Shot Dead By Security Guard Claiming Stand Your Ground | Breaking News for Black America

Security guard wasn't hired as armed security guard - Morning Call

Security guard shoots, kills shoplifting suspect at CVS Pharmacy on Canal Street | NOLA.com

Security guard charged in triple shooting that killed 1, injured 2 in Midtown - Atlanta Crime | Examiner.com

Ex-security guard suspected in fatal rampage kills himself after shootout with police | BrainerdDispatch.com | Brainerd, Minnesota

Security guard kills 10 in shooting spree, then takes own life - Chicago Tribune
 

Irish Houstonian

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Yes when the United States wanted to build an atomic bomb. We got the greatest minds in the country together and basically locked them in a room and said do this. Why can't we do the same on mass shootings or gun violence in general? Why can't we do this to solve the energy crisis? Other than lobyist spending money to prevent these things there is no reason.

Yes I say get the smartest people together and lets fix this.

Well...I say we get the smartest people in the world, and figure out how to convince you guys that you can't fix gun violence...:)
 

Irish Houstonian

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ND NYC

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The NRA represents the interests of the gun-makers, not necessarily the gun-owners.

on this i can agree with you bend.

NRA a/k/a NRSA (National Rifle Selling Association)

anything and everything that was/will ever be proposed that somehow interferes with/slows down/regulates people getting their hands on guns/ammo of ANY TYPE will never EVER be supported by this group.

we shouldnt try to conince the NR(S)A of anything. it wont happen. they are already bought and paid for. rather-its time to work around them building consensus with people across the country who have had it with military grade weapons slaughtering innnocent civilians.
 

ND NYC

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Police and Cops need to be more outspoken on this issue.
And some are/have always been.
More need to be.


“There is no legitimate reason for an assault weapon with their high capacity magazines to ever be in the hands of a private citizen. Those are weapons designed for the military and/or law enforcement that are only used in extreme circumstances. We wholeheartedly support an absolute ban on the sale to, or possession of assault weapons to anyone except the military or law enforcement officers.”
Pat Lynch President of New York City PBA
PBA Press Releases
 

JadeBrecks

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Police and Cops need to be more outspoken on this issue.
And some are/have always been.
More need to be.


There is no legitimate reason for an assault weapon with their high capacity magazines to ever be in the hands of a private citizen. Those are weapons designed for the military and/or law enforcement that are only used in extreme circumstances. We wholeheartedly support an absolute ban on the sale to, or possession of assault weapons to anyone except the military or law enforcement officers.”
Pat Lynch President of New York City PBA
PBA Press Releases

I would consider my constitutional right to keep and bear arms a legitimate reason.
 
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