Opinions/Discussions on Guns

[Jebediah Springfield]

The government owns billions and billions of dollars worth of planes, tanks, submarines, warships, artillery, machine guns, assault weapons, etc... believe me when I say a few assault rifles aren't going to do sh or it against a government in the "Red Dawn but versus America*" fantasy.


*What's a "Red Dawn but versus America" fantasy, you ask? It's the conservative man's alternative to the stock "Zombie Apocalypse" fantasy, where the well-prepared man uses his knowledge of the terrain, some canned food, and his personal store of ARs to take on an over-reaching liberal government. Been a favorite amongst conservatives ever since the Clinton years, at least.

That's exactly what I said in another thread, can't remember which one though.

Nevertheless are you or anyone else for that matter going to convince people who believe that that they are wrong?

The liberal government is heading towards tyranny argument, 2nd amendment argument etc are what I think make this "murky".

 

[Domina Nostra]

The government owns billions and billions of dollars worth of planes, tanks, submarines, warships, artillery, machine guns, assault weapons, etc... believe me when I say a few assault rifles aren't going to do sh or it against a government in the "Red Dawn but versus America*" fantasy.


*What's a "Red Dawn but versus America" fantasy, you ask? It's the conservative man's alternative to the stock "Zombie Apocalypse" fantasy, where the well-prepared man uses his knowledge of the terrain, some canned food, and his personal store of ARs to take on an over-reaching liberal government. Been a favorite amongst conservatives ever since the Clinton years, at least.

I am not trying to argue here, so don't find an argument.

I am not sure if anyone thought that a bunch of farmer's with muskets were going to be able to take on the whole British army either. And I am pretty certain the right to bear arms did not protect the right for private citizens to own canons, warships, etc. The right just does not deal with the ability to withstand a frontal assault from a standing army.

The point of the right was always that a government does not have the right to prevent free men from defending themselves. This was one of the rights that free Birtish men assumed to be theirs by nature and custom. That right has and had practical limits, but then so does the government's right to limit self-defense.

 

[Downinthebend]

The government owns billions and billions of dollars worth of planes, tanks, submarines, warships, artillery, machine guns, assault weapons, etc... believe me when I say a few assault rifles aren't going to do sh or it against a government in the "Red Dawn but versus America*" fantasy.


*What's a "Red Dawn but versus America" fantasy, you ask? It's the conservative man's alternative to the stock "Zombie Apocalypse" fantasy, where the well-prepared man uses his knowledge of the terrain, some canned food, and his personal store of ARs to take on an over-reaching liberal government. Been a favorite amongst conservatives ever since the Clinton years, at least.

Why should the effectiveness matter?

 

[woolybug25]

That right has and had practical limits, but then so does the government's right to limit self-defense.

I say, yes.

Would you be ok with your neighbor owning biological warfare materials? What about him rigging his property with land mines? What if they felt that these were appropriate measures to protect themselves?

These are two exaggerated examples, but they prove the point that everyone has their personal limit on what they deem to be over the line of "self-defense". Assault Rifles and automatic weapons aren't on the same plane as the examples above, but I think its fair to have a national conversation on how to properly manage these rights in order to find a compromise between rights to bare arms and the unalienable right of Life, Liberty and Happiness that those arms can take away from the rest of us. Both are guaranteed by the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence (respectively), but we find ourselves in days where they are conflicting with each other.

 

[General Colon Bowel]

This has been making the rounds on facebook today. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it. I'm just posting it as a conversation piece.
The Anarchist Soccer Mom: Thinking the Unthinkable

 

[woolybug25]

This has been making the rounds on facebook today. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it. I'm just posting it as a conversation piece.
The Anarchist Soccer Mom: Thinking the Unthinkable

That was haunting. What a terrible situation for anyone to be in.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I say, yes.

Would you be ok with your neighbor owning biological warfare materials? What about him rigging his property with land mines? What if they felt that these were appropriate measures to protect themselves?

These are two exaggerated examples, but they prove the point that everyone has their personal limit on what they deem to be over the line of "self-defense". Assault Rifles and automatic weapons aren't on the same plane as the examples above, but I think its fair to have a national conversation on how to properly manage these rights in order to find a compromise between rights to bare arms and the unalienable right of Life, Liberty and Happiness that those arms can take away from the rest of us. Both are guaranteed by the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence (respectively), but we find ourselves in days where they are conflicting with each other.

Right. For example, we seem to agree that automatic weapons are out.

 

[NankerPhelge]

This really is horrible. It sickens me on so many levels. The deaths of these innocent kids most emotionally at the gut level, which any of us, whether or not we have children or grandchildren (I have both) cannot but to feel a more or less degree of shock and sorrow. But, even more profoundly, yet another stark example of the sick society we have become. And all we can ever do is address the superficial. Get ready for the tired, worn-out, and totally useless debates about gun control, politics, etc. blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum while we ignore the disease that is right before our eyes.

My first thoughts, when I got over the first blast of horror and sadness when I heard about this, were "well, should anybody be suprised that this keeps happening here?" After all, the only difference between these poor children and the other millions that we slaughter every year were that these at least made it out of their mother's wombs. Then, tonight I read where Mike Huckabee basically said much the same thing, in the context of how we have increasingly removed God from schools and everywhere else we can eradicate him from the public square. The comments on his statement were filled with some of the most vitriputive hatred I have ever seen. As will, I suppose, some of the responses to this post. But, I just don't really care about not "offending" anybody anymore, while being offended everyday by some of the the drivel that passes for "enlightened" opinion.

Pope Paul VI started the chain of thought in Humanae Vitae. Pope John the XXIII continued the conversation, and warned that we are becoming a "culture of death." He was right. We can deal with the superficialities all we want--that's easy. But that will have no real effect one way or the other. Until we take a close look at ourselves as a society--what we promote, what we value, how our laws reflect those values, and whether we believe that those laws and values have their source in anything other than the political process and man-made edicts, we are deluding ourselves if we think that we are truly going to make headway in dealing with the various evils we see running rampant all around us, to a greater degree all the time. We consistently devalue life, treat the very decisions of life and death as a commodity of some sort, work constantly to eradicate anything holy from the public square and debate, and attack and and do everything we can to marginalize in any way possible those who attempt to bring a different perspective to the table for consideration.

I know that not everyone on this board is Catholic, and I respect that. The fact that my thoughts on this issue devolve from the teachings of the church, however, make them no more invalid than opposing thoughts of others that have their sources elsewhere. Or does it?

 

[chubler]

And i'm glad we agree on that, that's getting rarer and rarer...
I'd prefer to see the supreme court's stance on the 2nd amendment reversed, and returned back to the doctrine of the right to form militias but not an individual right to bear arms...
I also believe that at this point, if a gun doesn't have a hunting or self defense function, it shouldn't be sold. You can shoot target practice with an airsoft gun or something, I know its not as much fun, but it's a small price to pay.

 

[DSully1995]

This has been making the rounds on facebook today. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it. I'm just posting it as a conversation piece.
The Anarchist Soccer Mom: Thinking the Unthinkable

Umm, here in canada, if you plead mentally ill/are proven mentally unstable your sent to a mental hospital until/if your able function in society, that story makes it seem like it doesnt exist in the states?

 

[DSully1995]

I am not trying to argue here, so don't find an argument.

I am not sure if anyone thought that a bunch of farmer's with muskets were going to be able to take on the whole British army either. And I am pretty certain the right to bear arms did not protect the right for private citizens to own canons, warships, etc. The right just does not deal with the ability to withstand a frontal assault from a standing army.

The point of the right was always that a government does not have the right to prevent free men from defending themselves. This was one of the rights that free Birtish men assumed to be theirs by nature and custom. That right has and had practical limits, but then so does the government's right to limit self-defense.

+1. Honestly as NATO countries we should all know this, our boys are being killed by people who live in caves in a mountain range.

 

[irisheyes]

Im just going to add that " assault weapons" are used for hunting. They are great for coyotes and hogs, both big threats to farmers.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I am makeing this thread so that the politcal talks don't take away from the deaths in the Another School Shooting thread. Please have you discussions here and lets remember them in the other thread please!!!

I'm not getting into the whole conversation, but this is the stupidest post/thread in the history of this board. The idea that you can separate the "politics" and the tragedy is absurd and offensive.

 

[Irishcop]

Two years ago I was sent to training for Crisis Intervention. It's focus is to get police officers who respond to call dealing with people who suffer form mental illnesses help for the illness rather than just placing them in hand cuffs and taking them to jail where they receive no help. When I worked for the City of Atlanta Police Dept we would receive calls in reference to a "24" which is code for a demented person. Well police would arrive and 9 times out of 10 arrest said person for disorderly conduct and take them to the thirteenth floor at Grady hospital. Its is where people with who suffer from mental illnesses are taken when under arrest. While on the thirteenth floor he/she would be seen by a doctor placed on medication and then sent right back out to the streets. Three of four weeks later the police would receive a call about that same individual and the cycle would start all over again.

Crisis Intervention is supposed to change how LEO's deal with people suffering from mental illnesses who commit crimes. I for one think it's a great idea however there are so very few mental health facilities, and the ones that we have are always full with patients. There is really no where to get them help. Its pretty sad.

 

[irishff1014]

I'm not getting into the whole conversation, but this is the stupidest post/thread in the history of this board. The idea that you can separate the "politics" and the tragedy is absurd and offensive.

Then dont click on the thread to read it. Thats the best thing i can tell you.

 

[Walter White]

Increase the education required to own a gun. You should have to take classes, background checks, and tests. Teach people how to safely secure their guns and all risks associated with them before they are allowed to own.

The right to gun ownership should be similar to the right to drive a vehicle. Although I think getting a drivers license should be harder to obtain than it is right now as well.

I also don't know the numbers in gun crimes linked to illegal black market weapons but I imagine its higher than legal ownership. There should be more of a focus on stopping the black market.

 

[phork]

I'm against the Drug War because prohibiting something only pushes the demand into the underground black market. Gun control would only impact law-abiding citizens.

The people who commit these crimes (or most gun crimes) aren't law-abiding citizens. They will still get their guns or find another way to commit the crimes.

Also, laws are reactionary policies. Laws are punishments. How do you punish someone in a murder/suicide?

I am, however, in favor of (in Ohio, because it is a state issue) a month-long wait on guns. I think this will prevent the "oh my wife is divorcing me let me go get a gun and blow her head off" crimes. And I am in favor of a ten-round maximum clip law, as well as mechanically making it take time to change out clips. I believe California has those two laws in place. I am also in favor of a state-wide assault weapons ban.

I'm not sure that you can do more than that other than address the real problem: MENTAL ILLNESS!

Just a question. But do you think, using current data, having almost 1 gun for every man, woman and child in the US might be the reason that the black market is able to have an abundance of weapons available?

One graph I saw was that gun ownership was trending downwards and shockingly so was violent crime committed with guns.

Personally I find it amazing the stat about ownership approaching 1 gun for everyone in the US.

 

[AKRowdy]

Ok but if you put a ban on assault rifles you raise the question what is considered an assault rifle? Today there are many rifles that have the AR look to them but are used for hunting. Another question what calibers does it restrict? Cause a .22 can hurt somebody just as easily as a 30-06. Plus you can find semi auto in any caliber and model you want, so to make a law/ restrictions on guns, IMO, would be too difficult and have too many grey areas. But do I think it should be harder to buy a gun? Yes I believe there should be a class but would that stop terrible events like this? No I won't. I'm on my phone or I'd look it up but how many crimes are committed with unregistered guns? I bet the statistic would be high. Because its not the purchasing of the gun from the dealer which is the problem but the purchasing of the gun from non-dealers and the other ways the person got the gun. No matter what if a person wants a gun they're gonna get it regardless, even if you do have a 30 day wait period if the person really wants a gun that badly they can get it from any gun owner. So IMO I do not think restrictions will help the problem.

 

[jmurphy75]

Ya try to prove this somehow, because i highliy doubt it, japan didnt have anywhere near the army necessary for an INVASION

He's just using quotes that can be found in history books or documentaies
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." is a quote by Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II.

 

[jmurphy75]

Increase the education required to own a gun. You should have to take classes, background checks, and tests. Teach people how to safely secure their guns and all risks associated with them before they are allowed to own.

The right to gun ownership should be similar to the right to drive a vehicle. Although I think getting a drivers license should be harder to obtain than it is right now as well.

I also don't know the numbers in gun crimes linked to illegal black market weapons but I imagine its higher than legal ownership. There should be more of a focus on stopping the black market.

While I don't think that these are bad ideas it will not stop a mentally unbalanced or just plain broken or evil person from finding a gun and committing a crime. There should be a focus on illegal weapons dealing, and a revision of security for schools. Time have changed since I was in elementary school, the world is a much more dangerous place.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

I've seen some comments that suggest a month waiting period on guns. While I don't necessarily disagree with that idea, consider this. The standard 3 day waiting period means that if you want to buy a handgun on Monday, you must wait 3 full days until Friday to take ownership. That is nearly an entire week to own a handgun, if you have not reconsidered taking innocent lives by that point, I don't think a month will do it. The "cooling off period" does actually work, for people who are mentally stable.

Any psychological waiting period or denial, I'm all for.

 

[kmoose]

Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun!

 

[Downinthebend]

If people want to actually affect (on a large scale) gun rights it should be done the correct way: by an amendment. Passing federal laws that would conflict with the constitution is a terrible idea.

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

1 armed adult in that school. We're talking about what a hero the principal is for doing something no one should have to do to protect the weakest members of our society.
Instead of what a hero they were for charging an armed man unarmed.

This idiot just killing himself instead of deciding he wants to go out in a big way and wants his name remembered we're not talking about this.

 

[Downinthebend]

"A&E doctors are calling for a ban on long pointed kitchen knives to reduce deaths from stabbing.

A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase - and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.

They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon.

The research is published in the British Medical Journal.

The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all. "

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/4581871.stm

 

[woolybug25]

 

[Grahambo]

Anybody know some of the laws that restrict gun control in foreign countries?

If you purchase a weapon for hunting or target practice, why not have an armory setup where you basically sign out your weapon to use it for that purpose and return it when complete? Or something like it at a local police station?

Maybe it sounds stupid. I don't know. Just spit balling ideas.

 

[pkt77242]

A great quote. Reps.

 

[4irishnation]

OK what we will do is tell everyone with an illegal weapon to turn it in. Then I can hand my gun over too. Then we will all live happily ever after. THE END

 

[Downinthebend]

Anybody know some of the laws that restrict gun control in foreign countries?

If you purchase a weapon for hunting or target practice, why not have an armory setup where you basically sign out your weapon to use it for that purpose and return it when complete? Or something like it at a local police station?

Maybe it sounds stupid. I don't know. Just spit balling ideas.

Right, because restricting law abiding citizens will solve anything.