Sports Illustrated Cover (Again)

Whiskeyjack

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Sounds like he wanted to write a "balanced" article on ND, and decided to do that by using Sullivan, Seeberg, Floyd, etc. to argue that the school sold its soul for on-field success.

Which is an objectively absurd premise. But again, I haven't read it yet.
 

JadeBrecks

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Ok, gents, I just read it. Let me first say that I’m not a big conspiracy theorist who tends to get caught up in all the “hater” kind of talk. That said, I’m feeling pissed after reading this article. Let me also say that I’m not going to summarize the whole article because, even though I wish I wouldn’t have given my $ to SI for this article, I know that most of you will want to read the article for yourself and I don’t want to spoil it.

To frame the whole article, here’s an excerpt: “Notre Dame’s culture of rigid campus discipline has been altered in ways that have changed not just the football program but also the entire community. Two young people have died, one directly connected to Notre Dame football and the other at odds with it, both leaving deep scars and very different levels of closure. A daily battle is waged between a distant memory of the old Notre Dame and the modern needs of the new Notre Dame. Football knits them together.” These two people, of course, are Declan Sullivan and Lizzy Seeberg. You can read these details for yourself once you get the article – nothing new really.

One of the big themes is Res Life, as it suggests that discipline has been softened under BK after Weis had no say in disciplinary affairs. It references the dismissal of Bill Kirk in 2010, who was the Associate VP of Res Life, and that his ouster was seen as a response to Weis saying that was the biggest thing that needed to change in order for ND to be successful. Then, as you might imagine, it referenced Floyd’s situation as an example of how discipline has been softened. All in all, this kind of crap from the article, despite perhaps certain specific elements that might have legitimacy, gave the very erroneous impression that ND had sold its soul to the devil. Which is why I’m feeling pissed after finishing it.

There are times when the author attempts to not put a negative slant on things. It references ND’s graduation rate, though not as glowingly as I would have expected. But then again I’m biased, because this is what I love most about ND. It includes quote from a couple current and former players, and also talks a bit about BK’s childhood, coaching history, and his early days at ND. But then it quickly gets into how the training table was added and that BK added pool and ping-pong tables, Xbox 360 and PS3 consoles, and a couple arcade machines. The spin put on this is that the players aren’t as much a part of the overall campus anymore because they’re hanging out together more at the Gug.

From an actual football standpoint, the opening paragraph, when talking about the Pitt game, refers to a referee’s phantom call and an inexplicably missed field goal. Then, to close the article, he brings these same pieces back up, talks about how we had two #2’s on the field for the Pitt missed FG, and says that Stepfan Taylor “appeared to stretch the ball into the end zone to score a tying touchdown (assuming the extra point was successful), but officials ruled Taylor had been stopped and inexplicably did not reverse the call on review.” Yes, inexplicably was the word choice there! Then, he ends the article with a quote from Manti that he uses in a way that has me feeling like I may never buy another SI again.

Last thing, because I want to end on a positive note, is that the front page of story has a huge shot of Manti coming out of the tunnel with Touchdown Jesus hovering overhead. It’s a really good shot.

Thanks for the heads up. I will keep my few dollars to myself then.
 

philipm31

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Ok, gents, I just read it. Let me first say that I’m not a big conspiracy theorist who tends to get caught up in all the “hater” kind of talk. That said, I’m feeling pissed after reading this article. Let me also say that I’m not going to summarize the whole article because, even though I wish I wouldn’t have given my $ to SI for this article, I know that most of you will want to read the article for yourself and I don’t want to spoil it.

To frame the whole article, here’s an excerpt: “Notre Dame’s culture of rigid campus discipline has been altered in ways that have changed not just the football program but also the entire community. Two young people have died, one directly connected to Notre Dame football and the other at odds with it, both leaving deep scars and very different levels of closure. A daily battle is waged between a distant memory of the old Notre Dame and the modern needs of the new Notre Dame. Football knits them together.” These two people, of course, are Declan Sullivan and Lizzy Seeberg. You can read these details for yourself once you get the article – nothing new really.

One of the big themes is Res Life, as it suggests that discipline has been softened under BK after Weis had no say in disciplinary affairs. It references the dismissal of Bill Kirk in 2010, who was the Associate VP of Res Life, and that his ouster was seen as a response to Weis saying that was the biggest thing that needed to change in order for ND to be successful. Then, as you might imagine, it referenced Floyd’s situation as an example of how discipline has been softened. All in all, this kind of crap from the article, despite perhaps certain specific elements that might have legitimacy, gave the very erroneous impression that ND had sold its soul to the devil. Which is why I’m feeling pissed after finishing it.

There are times when the author attempts to not put a negative slant on things. It references ND’s graduation rate, though not as glowingly as I would have expected. But then again I’m biased, because this is what I love most about ND. It includes quote from a couple current and former players, and also talks a bit about BK’s childhood, coaching history, and his early days at ND. But then it quickly gets into how the training table was added and that BK added pool and ping-pong tables, Xbox 360 and PS3 consoles, and a couple arcade machines. The spin put on this is that the players aren’t as much a part of the overall campus anymore because they’re hanging out together more at the Gug.

From an actual football standpoint, the opening paragraph, when talking about the Pitt game, refers to a referee’s phantom call and an inexplicably missed field goal. Then, to close the article, he brings these same pieces back up, talks about how we had two #2’s on the field for the Pitt missed FG, and says that Stepfan Taylor “appeared to stretch the ball into the end zone to score a tying touchdown (assuming the extra point was successful), but officials ruled Taylor had been stopped and inexplicably did not reverse the call on review.” Yes, inexplicably was the word choice there! Then, he ends the article with a quote from Manti that he uses in a way that has me feeling like I may never buy another SI again.

Last thing, because I want to end on a positive note, is that the front page of story has a huge shot of Manti coming out of the tunnel with Touchdown Jesus hovering overhead. It’s a really good shot.

I am never buying another SI, ever. #SMH
 

philipm31

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Interesting... he wrote this article which was "meh" a couple weeks ago... wouldn't have expect a hatchet job that tries to downplay how much this program tries to do everything the right way.

Notre Dame beats Pittsburgh in triple-overtime, stays in BCS hunt - Tim Layden - SI.com

Also he's not a hack from SEC country or a shock jock or someone who went to BC, Michigan, USC, etc... went to a small renowned liberal arts school and is from NY. So can't play the "he's biased card"... have to really wonder why we got the article we did.

Because he IS biased. Just as everyone at SI, just about.

And it never mentioned the fact that Rees was suspended for his arrest, either, which interesting since he was only the returning starter. SI is full of hacks now.

Who wrote about Manti? That might've been the only positive article by them in a decade.



Only reason to go to their site is Hot Clicks.
 

irishrecruiting

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Because he IS biased. Just as everyone at SI, just about.

And it never mentioned the fact that Rees was suspended for his arrest, either, which interesting since he was only the returning starter. SI is full of hacks now.

Who wrote about Manti? That might've been the only positive article by them in a decade.



Only reason to go to their site is Hot Clicks.

One of Pete Thamel's first stories for SI was the one on Manti. Could have been his first story, don't remember. Good writer.
 

IrishCat

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ND_SI_Covers.png
 

IrishLax

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I did not think it was that bad of a hack job as was reported... just that it put emphasis on the wrong areas (intentionally, IMO... I don't think there is any other way it could've come out that way). The lead in box at the top of the story is what is the biggest tell.

"AND DOWNWARD FROM THE MORAL HIGH GROUND IT HAS CLAIMED FOR A CENTURY"

Last time we checked we still graduated 95%+ of our players, all with real degrees, as good or better than any school in the country, with no cheating scandals. It's obvious how bad the author really wants to pen the 'sold their soul' narrative to appeal to a larger base. But all things considered, while some parts were misleading, it wasn't a hatchet job like we've seen from some other writers.
 

Whiskeyjack

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ILast time we checked we still graduated 95%+ of our players, all with real degrees, as good or better than any school in the country, with no cheating scandals. It's obvious how bad the author really wants to pen the 'sold their soul' narrative to appeal to a larger base. But all things considered, while some parts were misleading, it wasn't a hatchet job like we've seen from some other writers.

Which makes it more insidious. It has the veneer of being "fair and balanced", but the malice is thinly veiled.

Rather than take the article apart myself, it looks like "SEE" at NDNation already published a pretty solid rebuttal. (And f*ck you, Tim Layden, for making me link to that website).
 

stlnd01

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I'd agree that the last couple of paragraphs laid it on a bit thick (Taylor was by no means an obvious touchdown).
Maybe a bit of the implications made about Bill Kirk's departure were overblown (the football program was hardly the only people who had issues with him, and the fact that he's now at Ave Maria is kind of telling).
Otherwise I really don't see what problem people have with that story (and no, I'm not going to read NDNation's rebuttal).

The Seeburg thing happened. It wasn't well-handled by the university, and her family's upset. Who are we to judge?
The training table and the Gug are decisions they made that were subtle shifts in the way the program relates to campus. But Layden pointed out the many ways football players are still regular students too. Also the graduation rate and such.
And there was a lot of good stuff in there, about Kelly, about players, about the school. I learned several things I'd never heard before.
I don't see what people are so worked up about. It's hardly a hatchet job.
 

Sherm Sticky

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I'd agree that the last couple of paragraphs laid it on a bit thick (Taylor was by no means an obvious touchdown).
Maybe a bit of the implications made about Bill Kirk's departure were overblown (the football program was hardly the only people who had issues with him, and the fact that he's now at Ave Maria is kind of telling).
Otherwise I really don't see what problem people have with that story (and no, I'm not going to read NDNation's rebuttal).

The Seeburg thing happened. It wasn't well-handled by the university, and her family's upset. Who are we to judge?
The training table and the Gug are decisions they made that were subtle shifts in the way the program relates to campus. But Layden pointed out the many ways football players are still regular students too. Also the graduation rate and such.
And there was a lot of good stuff in there, about Kelly, about players, about the school. I learned several things I'd never heard before.
I don't see what people are so worked up about. It's hardly a hatchet job.
I completely agree with you on all your points. He might have over done it a bit on Kirk's departure from Reslife, but the facts about the changes in reslife are legit.

We had all been saying for years, especially after Fauria and Yeatman, that reslife needed to change...

EDIT: BTW this was my 6,001 post...man I'm old in every aspect of my life.
 

AllGoldEverything

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WTF I cant find this thing anywhere. Went to like 5 different places today with no luck.

Anybody have any advice on where to find it?
 

BGIF

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Didn't Sports Illustrated wrote Under the Tarnished Dome?

No, Don Yaeger and Douglas Looney wrote it. Looney was a SI writer but the book was independent of the magazine. I read the book. It was fraught with innuendo and very short on substance.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Otherwise I really don't see what problem people have with that story (and no, I'm not going to read NDNation's rebuttal).

You should. I don't link to that site lightly. It's worth your time.

The Seeburg thing happened. It wasn't well-handled by the university, and her family's upset. Who are we to judge?

Aside from the fact that a player was accused, what does it have to do with ND football? Especially with this season? That's the problem here; Layden constructed the narrative as "ND Sold Its Soul" to find success on the field, but none of his criticisms of the program advance that argument.

Take the bit about ResLife. He described the period during which enforcement of du Lac was at its most mechanical and draconian as evidence of ND's formerly held "moral highground", so that any change therefrom is necessarily a moral decline. Thus, Floyd's situation is portrayed as a star player getting special treatment. No mention is made of the fact that ResLife was not always so draconian, that it hurt many regular students as well, etc.

I don't see what people are so worked up about. It's hardly a hatchet job.

Do you feel ND compromised its morals to achieve this 12-0 season? Because that's the thrust of Layden's article.
 

WakeUpEchoes

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Agree with Whiskey. Thinly veiled malice as stated previously perfectly describes the article. If you tried to sum up that article's premise in one sentence, I don't think you would like what you came up with.
 

Sherm Sticky

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Do you feel ND compromised its morals to achieve this 12-0 season? Because that's the thrust of Layden's article.

Good point Whiskey. You are correct I don't feel ND has compromised its moral to achieve a 12-0 season. kudos sir.
 

stlnd01

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Do you feel ND compromised its morals to achieve this 12-0 season? Because that's the thrust of Layden's article.

No. I don't think they have at all. I do think they've made some subtle changes in recent years that help them compete more realistically in modern-day college football. Changes a lot of people on this board - and elsewhere in the Notre Dame community - have welcomed with open arms.

Layden got the nuance of some (the dorms/training table/Gug stuff) better than others (the du Lac/Bill Kirk business). I guess you could say that's evidence of malicious intent. Or it could be that his readers are more interested in how du Lac changes affected Michael Floyd than some sophomore physics major from Schaumburg. And I'm not sure it's fair to expect an outsider to have a full appreciation for the historic ebbs and flows of Res Life's Draconian-ness. I know when I was there 15 years ago, under Kirk, they could be pretty tough. How far back do you need to go?

And I know I'm not going to win a lot of arguments around here on the Seeburg thing, but any credible in-depth look at Notre Dame football in recent years has to bring it up. It would be irresponsible not to. It happened. It was a tragedy for everyone involved. Obviously it was complicated, but the university handled it poorly (in my opinion) and I understand why the Seeburgs are still upset. Would it really have made you feel better if the story included a line to the effect of "While football players at Florida and Oregon are publicly accused of sexual assault on a fairly regular basis..."

I get how this fits into "the media hates us" persecution complex so many of us Notre Dame fans carry around. And if you were hoping for a hand job, you were looking in the wrong place. But I thought it was a clear-eyed look at the changes Notre Dame has - and hasn't - made to compete. I thought Harrison Smith's quote (which, by the way, was used in SI's promotion of the piece) summed it up nicely. And reminded me of why I'm proud to be a Notre Dame fan.

"Notre Dame is not some golden perfect place. It's a place that tries to do the right thing."
 
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Bogtrotter07

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This country has had a small vocal element that espouses the puritanical philosophies of some of our early inhabitants; misfit belifs that have been around since before the birth of America. They have bumped against overwhelming evidence that their Calvanistic dogma was just that, unadulterated bullshiit.

This isn't about conservative versus liberal; nor Catholic versus Prod; it isn't even about haves versus have nots. It is about the mistaken beliefs of a very few that have allowed liars, and theives to prosper of the back of hardworking good people.

If it were not, why would someone bring up Michael Floyd's troubles, Declan Sullivan and that poor Seeburg girl, and not Matt James?

I watched the Stanford UCLA game and was reminded that Joseph Fauria and Shaq Evens were UCLA's best receivers. Whatever you want to say about it, the fact remains, Joe Fauria stood up to Res Life, did the tough thing and made the best of himself. So did Michael Floyd, only at ND, with the help of people who cared about and loved him, for Michael Floyd, not number 3. Because those non-Puritanical *** wipes were removed, another man was saved, and it profitted Notre Dame as well as the individual.

The puritanical mentality has to throw Seeburg in (possible sexual impropriety) and Sullivan (malfeasance from the highest level), to mask the reall truth. They are the problem. They allow thousands of kids like Matt James that get chewed up and spit out a year, just to preserve their own little self absorbed worlds. From beer parties and racous behaviors, to the poor players that get exploited for their atheletic abilities, yet are discarded without an education, and no future, once their abilities are used up, the sports power elite has exploited all of us. And it has been covered up with selfrighteous drivel.

This is what ND can be with Kelly at the helm, and players like Manti, out front speaking their gospel of "agape." That is why the haters have to be so over the top. Otherwise, with a school that takes care of its own, graduates all of its players, and competes at the highest levels, people will realize the nonsecial nature of their beliefs, and they loose everything.
 
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dudesthisisthebest

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This country has had a small vocal element that espouses the puritanical philosophies of some of our early inhabitants; misfit belifs that have been around since before the birth of America. They have bumped against overwhelming evidence that their Calvanistic dogma was just that, unadulterated bullshiit.

This isn't about conservative versus liberal; nor Catholic versus Prod; it isn't even about haves versus have nots. It is about the mistaken beliefs of a very few that have allowed liars, and theives to prosper of the back of hardworking good people.

If it were not, why would someone bring up Michael Floyd's troubles, Declan Sullivan and that poor Seeburg girl, and not Matt James?

I watched the Stanford UCLA game and was reminded that Joseph Fauria and Shaq Evens were UCLA's best receivers. Whatever you want to say about it, the fact remains, Joe Fauria stood up to Res Life, did the tough thing and made the best of himself. So did Michael Floyd, only at ND, with the help of people who cared about and loved him, for Michael Floyd, not number 3. Because those non-Puritanical *** wipes were removed, another man was saved, and it profitted Notre Dame as well as the individual.

The puritanical mentality has to throw Seeburg in (possible sexual impropriety) and Sullivan (malfeasance from the highest level), to mask the reall truth. They are the problem. They allow thousands of kids like Matt James that get chewed up and spit out a year, just to preserve their own little self absorbed worlds. From beer parties and racous behaviors, to the poor players that get exploited for their atheletic abilities, yet are discarded without an education, and no future, once their abilities are used up, the sports power elite has exploited all of us. And it has been covered up with selfrighteous drivle.

This is what ND can be with Kelly at the helm, and players like Manti, out front speaking their gospel of "agape." That is why the haters have to be so over the top. Otherwise, with a school that takes care of its own, graduates all of its players, and competes at the highest levels, people will realize the nonsecial nature of their beliefs, and they loose everything.

You loost me at the end ;)
 
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Bogtrotter07

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You loost me at the end ;)

If I lost you at the end; we are even. I lost me too. What I was trying to say was that what ND is this year is a beacon. Kelly and his style; Manti; the team that could, all stand up to the kind of conventional wisdom that holds us all back.
 
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