Manziel's Heisman Campaign

[calvegas04]

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[domerdude]

Making a Heisman case for Georgia Bulldogs quarterback Aaron Murray - NCF - ESPN

For those who aren't insider I will summarize.

Basically KC Joyner makes a case for Murray to get the Heisman over Johnny Football, sighting that statistically Murray has a higher QB rating, will have a chance to win his conference, and his YPA is greater. Also sighting that the beating of Alabama by Johnny Football should be considered overrated when compared to what Zach Mettenberger/LSU almost did with similar stat lines (other than rushing yards).

This helps Manti. Murray has NO chance at the Heisman but if the SEC/ESPN Heisman voters were split some, Manti would run away with it.

 

[irishpat183]

I'm really glad someone started this thread, because actually the more and more I look into it, the more and more I realize Johnny shouldn't even be in the discussion with the top dogs. Now I realize Manti has a legitimate chance of walking away with the trophy! Before I thought it'd be cool to at least get an invite, but IMO (obviously as a ND fan) he should be #1 on the list at this point

Simply not true. Manziel is a fantastic talent that has done some amazing things on the field this year.

Setting records in a tough conference AS A FRESHMAN is very impressive and he is worthy of being in the discussion. Guy is a beast.


That being said, I still think Manti is the pick.

 

[irishpat183]

So, with that criterion, should the best player on the national championship team win the Heisman every year? Why vote?

Way to chime in late....All things being equal (both have great stats at their respective positions), the fact that Manti is on an undefeated team, counts for something.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Yeah, let's face it: almost single-handedly beating Alabama on the road is probably the best one-game performance any offensive player has had this year. So it has to at least get his name mentioned in the conversation.

It doesn't necessarily hand him the trophy, obviously, but that counts for a lot these days.

 

[irishpat183]

Yeah, let's face it: almost single-handedly beating Alabama on the road is probably the best one-game performance any offensive player has had this year. So it has to at least get his name mentioned in the conversation.

It doesn't necessarily hand him the trophy, obviously, but that counts for a lot these days.

Exactly.

 

[ab2cmiller]

As much as I'd like to see Manti win the Heisman, I just don't think it's going to happen. Johnny's got the buzz right now. If he would've beaten Alabama at the start of the year and then lost to Florida and LSU, the buzz of Johnny wouldn't be near as high, but such is life.

The only way that I can see Manti being able to win the Heisman at this point is if Johnny chokes this week or Manti has his "Heisman Moment" this week with all eyes across the nation glued to the TV. I don't even think having a big number of tackles against USC will be enough. I think he would have to cause a fumble or an interception towards the very end of the game that would seal the win.

Dream Scenario:
Game tied with under a minute left in the game, USC has the ball at the ND 30, Manti intercepts/causes a fumble (I'm not picky) and returns the ball 70 yards for the score and the win. Then I know Manti wins the Heisman

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

Simply not true. Manziel is a fantastic talent that has done some amazing things on the field this year.

Setting records in a tough conference AS A FRESHMAN is very impressive and he is worthy of being in the discussion. Guy is a beast.


That being said, I still think Manti is the pick.

"As a freshman" means nothing when talking about heisman. Is the heisman giving to the best freshman? The most impressive freshman player in America? Nope. It's given to the best player in the entire country.

What he has done is impressive, no doubt, but fairly comparing it across the board with other QBs doesn't put him at the top of the list. He's setting records, yet most his stats would rank in the 20's across the country...

He's scored a lot of TD's, yet where's Taj Boyd in the heisman discussion? He has more TDs...He's knocked of a #1 team, yet where's Nick Florence (better passing numbers for sure)? USC preseason #1 couple weeks later knocked off by Stanford, so where's Stefan Taylor? Where's Geno, Barkley, Doege, Jordan Lynch, Klein, Hundley, Cato, Mariota? They've all scored similar TD numbers...

So he's put up great numbers, but is on par with at least 10-15 other quarterbacks in the country...he's lost 2 games...Again I cite the Heisman Trust:
The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity. Winners epitomize great ability combined with diligence, perseverance, and hard work.

Arrested in the offseason shows integrity. right? Nothing about that statement above shouts "JOHNNY FOOTBALL" to me.

I have no problem with him earning all the freshman honors, I just don't see him as a Heisman winner...but then again it's been a down year for offensive playmakers in college

 

[Irish Houstonian]

If Manziel is just pedestrian against Missouri, and Manti has a pick or a big highlight-reel play, Manti wins the Heisman.

The luster of the Alabama game is already fading, whereas ND is picking up steam.

And once the Alabama high wears off, all Manziel has is his stats. Stats that we all know (by now) don't necessarily survive strict scrutiny.

 

[irishpat183]

"As a freshman" means nothing when talking about heisman. Is the heisman giving to the best freshman? The most impressive freshman player in America? Nope. It's given to the best player in the entire country.

What he has done is impressive, no doubt, but fairly comparing it across the board with other QBs doesn't put him at the top of the list. He's setting records, yet most his stats would rank in the 20's across the country...

He's scored a lot of TD's, yet where's Taj Boyd in the heisman discussion? He has more TDs...He's knocked of a #1 team, yet where's Nick Florence (better passing numbers for sure)? USC preseason #1 couple weeks later knocked off by Stanford, so where's Stefan Taylor? Where's Geno, Barkley, Doege, Jordan Lynch, Klein, Hundley, Cato, Mariota? They've all scored similar TD numbers...

So he's put up great numbers, but is on par with at least 10-15 other quarterbacks in the country...he's lost 2 games...Again I cite the Heisman Trust:
The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity. Winners epitomize great ability combined with diligence, perseverance, and hard work.

Arrested in the offseason shows integrity. right? Nothing about that statement above shouts "JOHNNY FOOTBALL" to me.

I have no problem with him earning all the freshman honors, I just don't see him as a Heisman winner...but then again it's been a down year for offensive playmakers in college

The fact that he's setting records for the conference, as a freshman, does hold some value, IMO. Not freshman records. But all-time SEC records. And yes, that does factor.

And the arrest won't even be a factor. You guys can drop that. I doubt it'll come up.

I think it's tough for a LB to win it...but if Teo has a big game, and we go to the title game, I think he's got as good a shot as any.

And all those other guys you mentioned....didn't knock off the #1 team in the country on the road, by themselves. Again, The performance against Alabama is a "Heisman" moment. Not one guy on the list you mentioned has that "moment" (given the situation and what was one the line).

 

[irishpat183]

If Manziel is just pedestrian against Missouri, and Manti has a pick or a big highlight-reel play, Manti wins the Heisman.

The luster of the Alabama game is already fading, whereas ND is picking up steam.

And once the Alabama high wears off, all Manziel has is his stats. Stats that we all know (by now) don't necessarily survive strict scrutiny.

I agree.

I believe that this will be Manti's moment. Not only is the Heisman on the line...but more importantly, a trip to the title game is.

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

The fact that he's setting records for the conference, as a freshman, does hold some value, IMO. Not freshman records. But all-time SEC records. And yes, that does factor.

And the arrest won't even be a factor. You guys can drop that. I doubt it'll come up.

I think it's tough for a LB to win it...but if Teo has a big game, and we go to the title game, I think he's got as good a shot as any.

And all those other guys you mentioned....didn't knock off the #1 team in the country on the road, by themselves. Again, The performance against Alabama is a "Heisman" moment. Not one guy on the list you mentioned has that "moment" (given the situation and what was one the line).

Florence knocked off the #1 team in the country. Actually he demolished the #1 team in the country...no, not on the road, but still beat them up pretty good. He's no where near the heisman discussion.

I understand why he's in the discussion...he beat the #1 team at the time, and they were Alabama (not another #1). He's in the SEC and he's impressive as a freshman. The SEC bias is holding him up in the heisman race.

Manti's lackluster games vs. Pitt and BC also let him get passed up by other guys...he had a change to really put on a show in those games.

Still, knocking off the top team means what? Stefan Taylor and those Stanford boys knocked off USC and Oregon...both considered #1 in some polls at the time. It's because he knocked off Alabama, and Bama has a mythical cloud around them that makes everyone see them on a different level. BS, but truth. Manti just needs to take care of business and he hardware might be his!

 

[connor_in]

Florence knocked off the #1 team in the country. Actually he demolished the #1 team in the country...no, not on the road, but still beat them up pretty good. He's no where near the heisman discussion.

I understand why he's in the discussion...he beat the #1 team at the time, and they were Alabama (not another #1). He's in the SEC and he's impressive as a freshman. The SEC bias is holding him up in the heisman race.

Manti's lackluster games vs. Pitt and BC also let him get passed up by other guys...he had a change to really put on a show in those games.

Still, knocking off the top team means what? Stefan Taylor and those Stanford boys knocked off USC and Oregon...both considered #1 in some polls at the time. It's because he knocked off Alabama, and Bama has a mythical cloud around them that makes everyone see them on a different level. BS, but truth. Manti just needs to take care of business and he hardware might be his!

Just MANTI being MANTI !!!

 

[RDU Irish]

SEC defenses ALL pump up their numbers by pounding FCS and crappy FBS schools. Bama beat up on Western Carolina last week, who has only won 2 games in the last two years. And that is supposed to be as impressive as holding Wake Forest scoreless?

Manziel had a good game versus Bama. The Bama lovefest mandates whoever beats them must be superhuman so he rockets to the top of the list. I will be watching the ACC/SEC matchups this weekend.

The silence will be deafening if/when the ACC hangs two losses on the SEC out of the three matchups. They win all three and ESPN may go off the air for a week or at least pretend college football doesn't exist.

Go Clemson!
Go Feminoles!
Go Ga Tech!

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Florence knocked off the #1 team in the country. Actually he demolished the #1 team in the country...no, not on the road, but still beat them up pretty good. He's no where near the heisman discussion.

...

Beating Kansas State's D, at home, with the help of Lache Seastrunk, is just not as good as beating Alabama's D, on the road, by yourself.

 

[Irish#1]

Look for Manti to have a monster game to seal it for him. Early in the game he'll get a sack to set the tone and get any misguided voters back on track.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Way to chime in late....All things being equal (both have great stats at their respective positions), the fact that Manti is on an undefeated team, counts for something.

Yes, I was calculating my entrance for the maximum effect...and just hoping that you wouldn't respond. That's why I waited for just over two hours to comment on your post (which was exactly the moment when I read it).

You don't make a bad point. But, see my next post. I think the voting has too often defaulted to that criterion.

 

[connor_in]

Look for Manti to have a monster game to seal it for him. Early in the game he'll get a sack to set the tone and get any misguided voters back on track.

Will he be sacking Barkley wearing a number 77 jersey?

 

[koonja]

Kelly has said Manti will not play offense at all to give his campaign some more razzle dazzle. I do expect he'll allow him to make some more plays on defense, however. I wouldn' be surprised to see Manti run 2 or 3 more 3rd down blitzes than he's used to, and completed hulk-smash Witteg.

 

[NDFan4Life]

My feeling is that Manziel is ESPN's current love interest. He's getting all the hype from them. They have a lot of juice and every time they mention his name, it's more publicity for him. ESPN won't say anything about his losses or his stats. They don't care. Manti will be invited to NY, but I doubt he'll win. It's not fair, but that's just the way it is.The Heisman has lost it's luster.

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

Beating Kansas State's D, at home, with the help of Lache Seastrunk, is just not as good as beating Alabama's D, on the road, by yourself.

Christine Michael didn't score 2 TDs? A&M Defense didn't pick off McCarron twice and force another fumble? 3 forced turnovers by the A&M defense was 100% on Manziel...right? Didn't realize he played defense too....

Johnny dominated the 1st quarter...then showed up again halfway through the 4th. Bama knocking on the door and A&M comes up with a HUGE turnover in the endzone. How did Manziel win that game by himself?

 

[irishpat183]

Yes, I was calculating my entrance for the maximum effect...and just hoping that you wouldn't respond. That's why I waited for just over two hours to comment on your post (which was exactly the moment when I read it).

You don't make a bad point. But, see my next post. I think the voting has too often defaulted to that criterion.

And I got ya, teach. I was just pulling your chain!

 

[irishpat183]

Christine Michael didn't score 2 TDs? A&M Defense didn't pick off McCarron twice and force another fumble? 3 forced turnovers by the A&M defense was 100% on Manziel...right? Didn't realize he played defense too....

Johnny dominated the 1st quarter...then showed up again halfway through the 4th. Bama knocking on the door and A&M comes up with a HUGE turnover in the endzone. How did Manziel win that game by himself?

Manziel also threw some of the best passes I've seen all season in that game.

Look, I'm not against what you're saying, I agree that him being a freshman gives him a bit of hype he probably doesn't deserve...but the kid is a gamer. And he does deserve to be in the discussion.

Again, not one guy you mentioned (even Taylor) has had that "Heisman" moment. And Baylor is a .500 team. So no Flourence doesn't belong anywhere in that discussion.

 

[irishpat183]

Christine Michael didn't score 2 TDs? A&M Defense didn't pick off McCarron twice and force another fumble? 3 forced turnovers by the A&M defense was 100% on Manziel...right? Didn't realize he played defense too....

Johnny dominated the 1st quarter...then showed up again halfway through the 4th. Bama knocking on the door and A&M comes up with a HUGE turnover in the endzone. How did Manziel win that game by himself?

Just watch the game again. He's the reason they're in that game. He picked apart maybe the best D in college football.


And if that's the case, why should Manti get any recognition? Does Tuitt not make plays? Should the guys that tipped the ball to Manti on those picks get recognition?


You know the deal. QB"s are always going to get more credit than they deserve and more blame than they deserve.

 

[johnnykillz]

Holy sh!t.

Screw Johnny Freshman.

He's lost 2 of 3 against big time competition and looked anemic against the Bayou Bengals and the Gators.

/end bulsh!t here.

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

Just watch the game again. He's the reason they're in that game. He picked apart maybe the best D in college football.


And if that's the case, why should Manti get any recognition? Does Tuitt not make plays? Should the guys that tipped the ball to Manti on those picks get recognition?


You know the deal. QB"s are always going to get more credit than they deserve and more blame than they deserve.

I'm not saying teams can't win games, that was you stating Manziel beat Bama by himself. LSU's offense had a better game than A&M's...had their defense stepped up like A&M's did we would be talking about Mettenberger as the heisman leader and no one would even mention Manziel in the discussion. A&M's defense won the game, LSU's couldn't sniff out a screen...that gives Manziel the credit because he's the QB.

Not saying Florence should be, just saying if we are throwing out the fact that someone lost games based solely on them upsetting #1, Florence has better #'s than Manziel and should therefore be higher in the race.

Of course the other guys make plays and yes we should give credit to everyone on this ND defense, but you have to look at some things here...No linebacker is close to Manti in INTs...that's not by fluke. Most DB's aren't even on his level.
Manti leads the best defense in the entire country. He is the QB of the defense...so, give credit to manziel for all of the offense, but then give Manti credit for his defense.

Manziel's offense: Top 10 in completion percentage (#9) and not in any other passing category. Top 10 in yards per rush (#5) but not in any other category. Top 10 in total yards per game. Ranked 20 or lower in pretty much everything else

Manti's Defense is top 10 in TEN different defensive rankings, coming in at #1 for points/game, opponents points/play, opponent rush/game. #6 in yards/game & yards/play, #5 in rush yards/game and #9 in yards per pass.
Considered to be the #1 total defense in the country...

So, leader of the #1(arguably) defense, or leader of top 20 offense? Who's better?

 

[irishpat183]

I'm not saying teams can't win games, that was you stating Manziel beat Bama by himself. LSU's offense had a better game than A&M's...had their defense stepped up like A&M's did we would be talking about Mettenberger as the heisman leader and no one would even mention Manziel in the discussion. A&M's defense won the game, LSU's couldn't sniff out a screen...that gives Manziel the credit because he's the QB.

Not saying Florence should be, just saying if we are throwing out the fact that someone lost games based solely on them upsetting #1, Florence has better #'s than Manziel and should therefore be higher in the race.

Of course the other guys make plays and yes we should give credit to everyone on this ND defense, but you have to look at some things here...No linebacker is close to Manti in INTs...that's not by fluke. Most DB's aren't even on his level.
Manti leads the best defense in the entire country. He is the QB of the defense...so, give credit to manziel for all of the offense, but then give Manti credit for his defense.

Manziel's offense: Top 10 in completion percentage (#9) and not in any other passing category. Top 10 in yards per rush (#5) but not in any other category. Top 10 in total yards per game. Ranked 20 or lower in pretty much everything else

Manti's Defense is top 10 in TEN different defensive rankings, coming in at #1 for points/game, opponents points/play, opponent rush/game. #6 in yards/game & yards/play, #5 in rush yards/game and #9 in yards per pass.
Considered to be the #1 total defense in the country...

So, leader of the #1(arguably) defense, or leader of top 20 offense? Who's better?

Manti is better. But that's because we're ND fans. Hey, I'm voting for our guy. Just saying that Johnny Football deserves to be sitting there that night.

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

Manti is better. But that's because we're ND fans. Hey, I'm voting for our guy. Just saying that Johnny Football deserves to be sitting there that night.

I gotcha man....I know you're on the Manti train, it's more of a rant as to why I think it's unfair for manziel to be discussed in the same sentence as Te'o. Let's hope it works out for us in the end!

Thanks for playing devil's advocate on that one lol

 

[Irish#1]

QB's get more recognition because they touch the ball every play and thus affect the outcome of every play.

However, this is pretty much what Manti has done all year for the defense. He has had a direct affect on every defensive play, wether it's being in on a tackle, making an int, clogging up a lane or more importantly elevating the play of everyone else on the defense. That's why he is Hesiman worthy over Johnny Football.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Christine Michael didn't score 2 TDs? A&M Defense didn't pick off McCarron twice and force another fumble? 3 forced turnovers by the A&M defense was 100% on Manziel...right? Didn't realize he played defense too....

Johnny dominated the 1st quarter...then showed up again halfway through the 4th. Bama knocking on the door and A&M comes up with a HUGE turnover in the endzone. How did Manziel win that game by himself?

Michael was on the goal line because of Manziel. Manziel didn't necessarly "win the game" by himself, he "beat Bama's defense" pretty much by himself. And it was as big an offensive accomplishment since Cam Newton. Look, I love Manti as much as anyone, and I think he should win, but this accomplishment will be acknowledged by the Heisman voters, if it hasn't already.

Obviously you can't be too literal about him doing it "alone" because someone had to block for him, someone had to coach him, and someone had to make the cleats he wore. But you know what sports fans mean when they say stuff like this. There's a reason why this kid shocked the world, and it's not the College Station, Texas media bias.