Actually, A Good Yahoo Sports Article

[IrishinSyria]

Still murderous, even if it turned out to be softer than expected. During that stretch, KSU played Missouri State, North Texas, and Kansas, and Oregon played Arkansas State, Fresno State, and Tennessee Tech. Even the worst team we faced during that 8-game strecth is significantly better than any of those teams.

Why am I having to defend ND like this? You all need to stop watching Sportscenter. Our SoS and an historically good defense are compelling arguments for our being ranked in the top 2. It's not our fault that the voters are inclined to overlook KSU's cupcakes and Oregon's lack of defense.

Not trying to pick a fight, just saying an argument can be made for any of the 3. Agree the preseason polls have too much of an influence, but I don't see an alternative. There is no way to fairly evaluate teams when you have 12 game schedules and 124 teams. Fact of the matter is that our signature win is also K-State's signature win and we haven't convinced voters we are definitely a better team.

Getting to 12 wins will mean shutting down one of the most prolific passing offenses in the history of College Football. If we do that and still get shut out of the NC game, I'll be in the front row of the freak out train. But until then, I'd advise against excessive worrying; there's still a lot of football left to be played.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Not trying to pick a fight, just saying an argument can be made for any of the 3. Agree the preseason polls have too much of an influence, but I don't see an alternative. There is no way to fairly evaluate teams when you have 12 game schedules and 124 teams. Fact of the matter is that our signature win is also K-State's signature win and we haven't convinced voters we are definitely a better team.

Getting to 12 wins will mean shutting down one of the most prolific passing offenses in the history of College Football. If we do that and still get shut out of the NC game, I'll be in the front row of the freak out train. But until then, I'd advise against excessive worrying; there's still a lot of football left to be played.

Agreed on all accounts.

 

[kmoose]

I offered an opinion, and this is what I got back from you. Again, you can use your own brain, or you can be a Lowest Common Denominator. Regardless, I am done with the subject.

Because kmoose says so? I didn't see anything like that in the non-existent guidelines used by the human voters.

This all comes back to preseason rankings having far too much influence on the final outcome. Poll stagnation is indefensible, whether you're benefiting from it or not.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I offered an opinion, and this is what I got back from you. Again, you can use your own brain, or you can be a Lowest Common Denominator. Regardless, I am done with the subject.

And I challenged your assertion, to which you haven't been able to respond with any sort of substantiation. That's what happens on internet message boards.

You started preaching against ND fans complaining about biased polling. Perhaps I'm reading the wrong threads, but I've seen nothing of the sort. Then you claimed ND has benefited from biased pollsters in the past, but you couldn't provide any examples of this.

There's no high ground to retreat to here. In the future, I'd suggest you refrain from lecturing the community regarding imaginary issues.

 

[ACamp1900]

Personally, I think ND is on the verge of a dominant period in CFB again, regardless of how or where we end up.

Lol... Got to love this fan base

 

[kmoose]

You started preaching against ND fans complaining about biased polling. Perhaps I'm reading the wrong threads, but I've seen nothing of the sort. Then you claimed ND has benefited from biased pollsters in the past, but you couldn't provide any examples of this.

You've obviously missed this thread? http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/notre-dame-football/75491-bcs-rankings-2012-a.html

Ok, then maybe you have read THIS post?

Why am I having to defend ND like this? You all need to stop watching Sportscenter. Our SoS and an historically good defense are compelling arguments for our being ranked in the top 2. It's not our fault that the voters are inclined to overlook KSU's cupcakes and Oregon's lack of defense.

There's been plenty of complaining going on, including your own. But you haven't seen any.

There's no high ground to retreat to here. In the future, I'd suggest you refrain from lecturing the community regarding imaginary issues.

I'll lecture you anytime I feel like it. That's what happens on internet message boards.

 

[BobD]

GO TREE'S!! ( I think they can do it for us.)

 

[Whiskeyjack]

There's been plenty of complaining going on, including your own. But you haven't seen any.

So making the case that ND deserves a title shot means I'm "elitist, entitled [and] arrogant"? When you mentioned biased pollsters, I assumed you meant specifically anti-ND bias. I haven't seen much of that on our message board.

But the voters obviously suffer from basic cognitive biases that are common to most humans. High-flying offenses are more exciting than stifling defenses (just like in Heisman voting) and virtually every top team (except ND) plays some cupcakes, so it gets overlooked. There's nothing wrong in pointing it out though.

I'll lecture you anytime I feel like it. That's what happens on internet message boards.

Knock yourself out. But the "Grumpy Old Man of IE" shtick wears thin.

 

[phork]

I still have no idea why there was never a playoff format introduced years ago... You would think the NCAA would've smartened up and realized 2 things. 1. It would truly put the best 2 teams against each other. And 2. They could bring in some serious revenue from a playoff system.

Money.

Forgot about 2004; they got robbed as well. Both USC (#1) and OU (#2) started the season ranked higher than Auburn (#18), and since all three went undefeated, the Tigers never had a chance to jump them.

If I remember correctly Oklahoma got stomped in the BIG12 championship by KSU and still made the NCG.

That's the point, though. Since it's a close call between the final three unbeatens, pre-season ranking continues to be the primary factor in our inability to jump KSU; not our lack of style points against Pitt and BC.

If we had blown out a few more quality teams during our murderous 8-game stretch at the beginning of the year, then we might be sitting in the top 2 at the moment. But that's not a realistic complaint. Oregon and KSU haven't blown out the quality teams on their schedule either.

In short, if you're upset by our close wins against Pitt and BC, don't be. Blow outs wouldn't have changed anything.

Incorrect. ND was 24 and KSU 21 in the preseason. Week#2 ND 22 KSU 20. Week#3 ND 19 KSU 14, no shock here as this was the week after drubbing Miami. Next week ND is 15 KSU 13. Then ND 11 KSU 8, then ND 10 KSU 8, ND 7 KSU 5, ND 5 KSU 3, ND 5 KSU 4, ND 4 KSU 3, ND 4 KSU 3, ND 3 KSU 2.

Had we been more impressive in our wins, we could have passed them at some point. Defense is impressive and will carry you further than offense, but voters don't see it that way.

I was thinking of this hypothetical... what if KState ends up playing Oregon in the Championship... and we end up playing in Sugar Bowl vs Alabama (not sure exactly how likely this is, but just go with me). If the Ship is close and we beat Alabama, is there any chance of a split? I think in that case there would be a good argument for us...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Incorrect. ND was 24 and KSU 21 in the preseason. Week#2 ND 22 KSU 20. Week#3 ND 19 KSU 14, no shock here as this was the week after drubbing Miami. Next week ND is 15 KSU 13. Then ND 11 KSU 8, then ND 10 KSU 8, ND 7 KSU 5, ND 5 KSU 3, ND 5 KSU 4, ND 4 KSU 3, ND 4 KSU 3, ND 3 KSU 2.

I understand your point, phork. You see the small differential in ranking and think that if only we'd been able to hang some real points on Michigan, we might have jumped them. I, on the other hand, see a clear trend whereby the voters are loath to jump one team over another until one loses.

Kansas State benefited from a higher preseason ranking, and their schedule was laid out beautifully. Every 2nd or 3rd game has been a win over a ranked opponent, so we've never had a chance to pass them. Nevermind that those in-between games were cupcakes (Missouri State, North Texas, Kansas), or near losses to inferior teams (Iowa State).

You think our triple OT loss against Pitt hurt us? It may have. But KSU needed a stop on 4th and goal to beat Iowa State, whose only ranked 4 spots ahead of Pitt.

 

[irishog77]

Money.





If I remember correctly Oklahoma got stomped in the BIG12 championship by KSU and still made the NCG.



Incorrect. ND was 24 and KSU 21 in the preseason. Week#2 ND 22 KSU 20. Week#3 ND 19 KSU 14, no shock here as this was the week after drubbing Miami. Next week ND is 15 KSU 13. Then ND 11 KSU 8, then ND 10 KSU 8, ND 7 KSU 5, ND 5 KSU 3, ND 5 KSU 4, ND 4 KSU 3, ND 4 KSU 3, ND 3 KSU 2.

Had we been more impressive in our wins, we could have passed them at some point. Defense is impressive and will carry you further than offense, but voters don't see it that way.

That was '03

 

[rikkitikki08]

I want ND to go to the National championship game as much as the rest of you but a part of me is just really really happy Notre Dame is 10-0 right now......with that being said stanford is going to beat oregon this weekend. WOOOHOOO GO IRISH!

 

[phork]

I understand your point, phork. You see the small differential in ranking and think that if only we'd been able to hang some real points on Michigan, we might have jumped them. I, on the other hand, see a clear trend whereby the voters are loath to jump one team over another until one loses.

Kansas State benefited from a higher preseason ranking, and their schedule was laid out beautifully. Every 2nd or 3rd game has been a win over a ranked opponent, so we've never had a chance to pass them. Nevermind that those in-between games were cupcakes (Missouri State, North Texas, Kansas), or near losses to inferior teams (Iowa State).

You think our triple OT loss against Pitt hurt us? It may have. But KSU needed a stop on 4th and goal to beat Iowa State, whose only ranked 4 spots ahead of Pitt.

But they stopped them, and they didn't go to Overtime, let alone 3 over times with a miracle field goal miss.

 

[phork]

That was '03

Right, but the 04 NCG.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

But they stopped them, and they didn't go to Overtime, let alone 3 over times with a miracle field goal miss.

But doesn't the miracle missed field goal just prove we are destined to play for the National Title!?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

But they stopped them, and they didn't go to Overtime, let alone 3 over times with a miracle field goal miss.

Now you're just splitting hairs. I'd bet large sums that voters aren't making that distinction, though it would probably help us if they were. Instead, all memory of KSU's struggles over ISU was wiped out by what seemed like an impressive victory over WVU (but in the end, not so much).

KSU's struggles against ISU have been forgotten, but ND's struggles against Pitt are fresh in the memory of most voters. There's not much difference between the quality or manner of those wins, though.

 

[phork]

But doesn't the miracle missed field goal just prove we are destined to play for the National Title!?

Only in our world.

 

[IrishinSyria]

But they stopped them, and they didn't go to Overtime, let alone 3 over times with a miracle field goal miss.

This is, in my opinion, the biggest reason why I have trouble getting too worked up about our spot in the polls. We can talk about where we started in the polls and why style points shouldn't matter all day, but the fact of the matter is that of all 3 unbeaten teams, we are the only ones who gave the other team such a clear shot to win. Voters have to split hairs, and that's a pretty obvious one.

 

[dshans]

... the "Grumpy Old Man of IE" ...

Hey! You're [not "your"] stompin' on and abusin' my registered trademark!

Knock it off or you'll be hearing from my vLawyer ...



... and get off my lawn!

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Ok. So I know the SEC has been dominant conference for the past 5 years or so, but they are having a down year this year and are living on their reputation.

I'll just make one point...A middle tier B12 team came into the conference this year, they are a top 15 team and have an 8-2 record. A middle of the road big 12 team.

 

[philipm31]

And I challenged your assertion, to which you haven't been able to respond with any sort of substantiation. That's what happens on internet message boards.

You started preaching against ND fans complaining about biased polling. Perhaps I'm reading the wrong threads, but I've seen nothing of the sort. Then you claimed ND has benefited from biased pollsters in the past, but you couldn't provide any examples of this.

There's no high ground to retreat to here. In the future, I'd suggest you refrain from lecturing the community regarding imaginary issues.

BGIF pointed out that in 1966 Bama felt they were cheated out of the National title because ND was 9-0-1 while they were undefeated. And in 1977 when the Irish lost to Ole Miss but annihilated #1 Texas to claim the MNC, also to Tide fans chagrin, I think. Just two that I can think of. ND has been the beneficiary in the past but not really during my lifetime.

Edit: 1977 was in my lifetime but I was just a young'un then. 1988 and 1993 are the years that stand out to me the most. For obvious reasons.

 

[philipm31]

Lol... Got to love this fan base

Thanks.

I think?

 

[kmoose]

Ok. So I know the SEC has been dominant conference for the past 5 years or so, but they are having a down year this year and are living on their reputation.

I'll just make one point...A middle tier B12 team came into the conference this year, they are a top 15 team and have an 8-2 record. A middle of the road big 12 team.

I was thinking this, just Saturday. But then it occurred to me that Manziel is the difference, this year, for A&M. So they were a middle of the road Big XII team, but that was without Manziel. Had he been playing, and playing like this year, they would likely have been a much better than middle of the road team in the Big XII.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

BGIF pointed out that in 1966 Bama felt they were cheated out of the National title because ND was 9-0-1 while they were undefeated. And in 1977 when the Irish lost to Ole Miss but annihilated #1 Texas to claim the MNC, also to Tide fans chagrin, I think. Just two that I can think of. ND has been the beneficiary in the past but not really during my lifetime.

Edit: 1977 was in my lifetime but I was just a young'un then. 1988 and 1993 are the years that stand out to me the most. For obvious reasons.

Not knowing anything about their relative schedule strengths, I can't really speak to this. But since this was pre-BCS, 'Bama can (and surely does) still claim a title for that year. They weren't really robbed of anything.

That's no longer the case.

 

[kmoose]

Not knowing anything about their relative schedule strengths, I can't really speak to this. But since this was pre-BCS, 'Bama can (and surely does) still claim a title for that year. They weren't really robbed of anything.

That's no longer the case.

Did you completely block the year 2004 out of your memory? Auburn went undefeated and didn't play in the title game....... and after the 2003 season(the 2004 Bowl Season), USC was named the AP National Champion, without having even played in the BCS title game. As long as the AP is separate from the BCS, there can still be split titles.

 

[BeatSC]

Just beat USC,

Just beat USC,

At this point I will accept not making it to the BCS title game in trade for insuring a win against USC. If USC betas ucla I doubt we will even be favored. I think we have the greatest chance of the three left of losing. I would take a win over USC and maxing the big game instead of rolling the dice. Either way we have to get thru USC on the road which I think trumps any test k-state may have. Is there still a big 12 title game?

 

[ickythump1225]

Did you completely block the year 2004 out of your memory? Auburn went undefeated and didn't play in the title game....... and after the 2003 season(the 2004 Bowl Season), USC was named the AP National Champion, without having even played in the BCS title game. As long as the AP is separate from the BCS, there can still be split titles.

Well after that the AP had their voice taken away from them to avoid such a situation in the future. The AP no longer counts towards crowning the "official" National Champion. So if, for instance, Notre Dame goes undefeated and gets relegated to the Sugar Bowl or Rose Bowl where they thoroughly thump their opponent and the AP ranks us #1 it wouldn't quite be the same situation as 2003/4. We could technically claim a NC but it would be rather hollow.

 

[kmoose]

Well after that the AP had their voice taken away from them to avoid such a situation in the future. The AP no longer counts towards crowning the "official" National Champion. So if, for instance, Notre Dame goes undefeated and gets relegated to the Sugar Bowl or Rose Bowl where they thoroughly thump their opponent and the AP ranks us #1 it wouldn't quite be the same situation as 2003/4. We could technically claim a NC but it would be rather hollow.

Why not? The AP poll is still the most prestigious of the human polls. And with all of the controversy surrounding the BCS, many people would support just about any team named #1 in the AP poll.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Did you completely block the year 2004 out of your memory? Auburn went undefeated and didn't play in the title game....... and after the 2003 season(the 2004 Bowl Season), USC was named the AP National Champion, without having even played in the BCS title game. As long as the AP is separate from the BCS, there can still be split titles.

I think you missed my point. Pre-BCS, title controversy was common, but such controversy rarely created a definite loser. Multiple programs simply ended up claiming a title for that year.

Post-BCS, there is always a definite loser. So your point about ND having benefited from alleged pre-BCS pollster bias isn't really relevant to the post-BCS reality. Particularly after spending 19 years in the wilderness.

 

[ickythump1225]

Why not? The AP poll is still the most prestigious of the human polls. And with all of the controversy surrounding the BCS, many people would support just about any team named #1 in the AP poll.

I don't think the administration would claim such a thing though. ND is pretty stringent with it's requirements for claiming a NC, they only claim 11 when they could claim much more, so I don't seem them claiming a NC if we finished #1. We signed up for the rules we are playing under so I just don't see us making that claim. I also don't see the AP not voting the winner of the NCG #1.