Politics

[Domina Nostra]

What separates successful communities from poverty-stricken communities in first world countries? Stable families that make sacrifices for the next generation.

If the liberal social agenda was designed to strengthen the one and only thing that is almost guaranteed to keep groups out of poverty, marriage, then I'd listen. But it isn't. Instead it's just spinning wheels and throwing money as the problem gets worse. In fact, everything from welfare (which penalizes marraige) to the progressive educational agenda actually undermines the very institution that is proven to help the poor the most.

It seems that supporting traditional families, despite the incredible protection they provide poor children, is just not an option because it bucks against the progressive social agenda.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Since LBJ put forth the War on Poverty, untold amounts of money has been spent on just what you are talking about. The figure is probably above 16 trillion dollars. Poverty hasn't declined. We have all this stuff: food stamps, help for housing, tons upon tons of help for college, and money thrown at public schools.

Many of the bad decisions that put people in poverty are personal decisions. Dropping out of high school, getting pregnant young and unmarried, and not sticking to a job and climbing the ladder. This is from a book called Creating an Opportunity Society. If you do 3 things: graduate high school, don't have a kid until after 21 and after marriage, and work a full-time job, your chances of being in poverty go from 12% to 2%. The Brookings Institute did a lot of research on this as well. There are examples all over America of people who grow up in lousy situations, but do these things, and make it. There are also examples of people who come from good situations and don't do those things and struggle.

Obviously, if you start from a lousy situation, it is tougher, and the book points that out. However, the conclusion it comes to is that those 3 things are the biggest things to do if you want to stay out of poverty. Those are all personal choices and not government choices.

Nice post!

 

[Bluto]

Agree. If old white guys weren't around I would have no idea what to do with my life. Probably still be a savage somewhere in the jungles of Mexico.

Or the jungles of Africa? Hey maybe slavery wasn't so bad after all! You know it allowed all those rich old white guys to become rich in the first place, which in turn allowed their great, great grandkids to be rich and then get old so now they are rich and old and they were nice enough to create jobs for all of us. Thanks rich old white guys!

 

[WaveDomer]

I'll just agree to disagree on healthcare.

As for education a 15 to 1 student to teacher ratio along with an aide would do wonders for classroom performance. As would funding for experiential learning opportunities, the arts and PE (all of which are the first to see the axe). If not a single nickle was spent on computers for K-6th that would be fine with me.

As for welfare Buster posted something quite interesting about increasing the benifit but at the same time increasing the demand (volunteering, taking job training courses ect). I thought this was a great idea.

Finally in terms of vocational training it would be nice to see experiential training in basic heavy equipment operation and repair, cad training, computer modeling and the like be a bigger part of high school and or junior college education and receive funding. Kind if like FFA but for other fields besides animal husbandry.

Vocational training and aid for that training are there and abundant. There are grants available for vocational training. Job Corps has internships available for vocational training where low income youth 16 - 24 can take courses at vocational schools and community colleges, while getting room and board, healthcare, living stipend, etc.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Come back to reality please. Rich old white men are the reason those jobs exist in the first place. Rich old white men are responsible for my choice in my career path and all the summer and part time jobs I've had. I can think of 2 rich old white men I'm related to that have created 100+ jobs for people.

This is devolving into a yahoo comment section discussion. I have nothing against rich old white men; I want to be one someday. So let me get that out of the way. But you can't look at this issue anecdotally. It is a much bigger picture issue. There is a reason that there aren't a proportionate number of rich old black people creating jobs, and if you cannot understand that I don't think there is any purpose of trying to have a discussion. We don't have to demonize white people to accept that black people in this country have been at a historical disadvantage. Even if you think that today there are zero institutional obstacles for blacks (which is absurd), we are only a generation or two removed from blacks not having access to quality education. You are dismissing the obvious effects of generations of enforced poverty, and the fact that most blacks today live in places with inferior schools, have inferior health care, inferior diets, etc., etc. You cannot possibly be foolish enough to believe that they all chose that because of some defect that makes them want to be poor.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

So enlighten me....what is it about black people that causes less of them to succeed and more of them to live in poverty? You're saying it has nothing to do with their history in this country?

Well, since I'm not a black person this is pure speculation but I would say that a lot of it has to do with upbringing. Not just their family but the families they see around them. I'll use my buddy as an example of what a black man can do if he chooses. My buddy was born and raised in The Bronx. He grew up poor with his mother being a bus driver and his father unable to work due to health issues. He didn't have the roughest childhood but he had it far from good. His parents raised him to believe that a lot of their shortcomings were because of the color of their skin but it was something he never fully bought. After graduating high school he took the ASVAB, scored well enough to join the Air Force and did so. He got married, had a kid and after fulfilling his commitment he got out and is now a police officer. He and his family are not rich but they have a nice house, good jobs and a wonderful little son. I'm not saying that the only path to success is the military but that is the one he chose and it's one of many if people would just look.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Well, since I'm not a black person this is pure speculation but I would say that a lot of it has to do with upbringing. Not just their family but the families they see around them. I'll use my buddy as an example of what a black man can do if he chooses. My buddy was born and raised in The Bronx. He grew up poor with his mother being a bus driver and his father unable to work due to health issues. He didn't have the roughest childhood but he had it far from good. His parents raised him to believe that a lot of their shortcomings were because of the color of their skin but it was something he never fully bought. After graduating high school he took the ASVAB, scored well enough to join the Air Force and did so. He got married, had a kid and after fulfilling his commitment he got out and is now a police officer. He and his family are not rich but they have a nice house, good jobs and a wonderful little son. I'm not saying that the only path to success is the military but that is the one he chose and it's one of many if people would just look.

OK, so what is it about blacks that cause them to have bad upbringings, then?

 

[In Lou I Trust]

Or the jungles of Africa? Hey maybe slavery wasn't so bad after all! You know it allowed all those rich old white guys to become rich in the first place, which in turn allowed their great, great grandkids to be rich and then get old so now they are rich and old and they were nice enough to create jobs for all of us. Thanks rich old white guys!

My family is from Iowa, never owned slaves and is not rich. I do, however, have an uncle that has busted his *** and now owns his own very successful demolition company. Thanks slavery, for providing me such wealth and opportunities!

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

My family is from Iowa, never owned slaves and is not rich. I do, however, have an uncle that has busted his *** and now owns his own very successful demolition company. Thanks slavery, for providing me such wealth and opportunities!

My favorite answer: I'm white and got nothing from slavery, so I don't get this whole white people benefited from slavery stuff!

 

[Bluto]

Just for reference we spent 3 - 4 trillion blowing up and trying to rebuild Iraq. I'm sure if we spent a fraction of that same amount of time and money over an extended period of time we could lick poverty and racial inequality. Anyhow, goodnight all. I have to get up a 5 to continue on my campaign to become a finacially secure brown guy. Thanks for the lively discussion. For the record my grandfather was an old white guy and he was pretty great.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I don't get how a diversity agenda that gives Tiger Woods kids preference over the grandkids of an Iowa demolition man helps a kid from the inner-city.

 

[WaveDomer]

Just for reference we spent 3 - 4 trillion blowing up and trying to rebuild Iraq. I'm sure if we spent a fraction of that same amount of time and money over an extended period of time we could lick poverty and racial inequality. Anyhow, goodnight all. I have to get up a 5 to continue on my campaign to become a finacially secure brown guy. Thanks for the lively discussion. For the record my grandfather was an old white guy and he was pretty great.

Well, we've spent more than a fraction of that, like I said, on the War on Poverty and haven't licked anything. I guess you can ignore that if you want.

According to the National Poverty Center, "In 2010, 31.6 percent of households headed by single women were poor." Again, graduate high school, don't have a kid until 21 and married, and work a full-time gig, there's your answer.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

OK, so what is it about blacks that cause them to have bad upbringings, then?

Sounds like the million dollar question. Maybe the easy access to government handouts. Maybe a feeling of entitlement due to years of slavery. I understand that you want me to admit that black people have had it rough and I do. Historically speaking, blacks have had it rough but that was then. I grew up in a trailer; my mother being a secretary and my father a laborer in the summer and taxi driver in the winter. For a brief period of time my family even had to move into the basement of a family friend. However, my parents took no government assistance and raised me to believe that the only way my life would be better than the one they could provide was by hard work and a desire to achieve my goals. Thus far in life I consider myself a success. I have a great job, a beautiful family that wants for nothing and the ambition to do even better. Looking at the past is a wonderful way to miss the future. A quote I heard once was, "When you blame others you give up your power to change."

 

[In Lou I Trust]

My favorite answer: I'm white and got nothing from slavery, so I don't get this whole white people benefited from slavery stuff!

I understand that white people benefited from slavery but it's not nearly as many as you probably want to believe.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Wave and In Lou, great stuff! Thanks!

 

[Bluto]

Well, we've spent more than a fraction of that, like I said, on the War on Poverty and haven't licked anything. I guess you can ignore that if you want.

According to the National Poverty Center, "In 2010, 31.6 percent of households headed by single women were poor." Again, graduate high school, don't have a kid until 21 and married, and work a full-time gig, there's your answer.

We spent 16 trillion over what 40 years? We spent 3-4 trillion in Iraq over a 8 year period? I guess I meant if you took a fraction of the annual expenditure.

Did poverty decrease over time? Has it increased more due to the recession and welfare reform?

Making what seem to be simple decisions like that are a bit more complex if you grow up in an area such as East Oakland. For example a friend of mine had 3 of his best friends shot mutiple times right infront of him when he was 17. In the gun fire he had the tip of his finger blown off and I believe was shot in the back as well. The only reason he survived was he was able to make it into his house and lock the door behind him. Needless to say he was not too focused on graduating from high school.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

I understand that white people benefited from slavery but it's not nearly as many as you probably want to believe.

I had a good answer but you read my mind and changed it.

 

[WaveDomer]

We spent 16 trillion over what 40 years? We spent 3-4 trillion in Iraq over a 8 year period? I guess I meant if you took a fraction of the annual expenditure.

Did poverty decrease over time? Has it increased more due to the recession and welfare reform?

Making what seem to be simple decisions like that are a bit more complex if you grow up in an area such as East Oakland. For example a friend of mine had 3 of his best friends shot mutiple times right infront of him when he was 17. In the gun fire he had the tip of his finger blown off and I believe was shot in the back as well. The only reason he survived was he was able to make it into his house and lock the door behind him. Needless to say he was not too focused on graduating from high school.

Welfare spending has outpaced military spending, by the way. Federal and State spending on welfare is above 900 billion this year. That's for welfare programs for housing, food, etc. These programs include:
12 programs providing food aid;
12 programs funding social services;
12 educational assistance programs;
11 housing assistance programs;
10 programs providing cash assistance;
9 vocational training programs;
7 medical assistance programs;
3 energy and utility assistance programs; and,
3 child care and child development programs.

Spending for assistance programs has outpaced military spending since 1993. In fact, "Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, government has spent $19.8 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars) on means-tested welfare. In comparison, the cost of all military wars in U.S. history from the Revolutionary War through the current war in Afghanistan has been $6.98 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars).[3] The War on Poverty has cost three times as much as all other wars combined." This is from an article by Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation.

If you don't "trust" Heritage, it is all over the place that spending on assistance programs is around 1 trillion this year. Plus there are other charts out there that detail defense spending versus assistance program spending. So it's simply not true that we don't spend money on these programs.

 

[pkt77242]

Since LBJ put forth the War on Poverty, untold amounts of money has been spent on just what you are talking about. The figure is probably above 16 trillion dollars. Poverty hasn't declined. We have all this stuff: food stamps, help for housing, tons upon tons of help for college, and money thrown at public schools.

Many of the bad decisions that put people in poverty are personal decisions. Dropping out of high school, getting pregnant young and unmarried, and not sticking to a job and climbing the ladder. This is from a book called Creating an Opportunity Society. If you do 3 things: graduate high school, don't have a kid until after 21 and after marriage, and work a full-time job, your chances of being in poverty go from 12% to 2%. The Brookings Institute did a lot of research on this as well. There are examples all over America of people who grow up in lousy situations, but do these things, and make it. There are also examples of people who come from good situations and don't do those things and struggle.

Obviously, if you start from a lousy situation, it is tougher, and the book points that out. However, the conclusion it comes to is that those 3 things are the biggest things to do if you want to stay out of poverty. Those are all personal choices and not government choices.

While they aren't government choices there are things the government can decide to do that will greatly help at least 2 of those things. One would be to stop abstince only education and to teach students about contraception (or you know make insurance companies have to cover it, does that sound familiar?) and improve our education system so that more people do graduate from HS. While the government can not force you to graduate there are things that can be done to lower the drop out rate such as changing the student to teacher ratio (shockingly when students get more attention they do better), making school more interactive (more experiments in science class instead of reading from a book, while it costs more it keeps the students engaged), and helping the poorest students families more so that the students aren't working full time jobs on the side to help their family. There are many other things as well, such as adding more job training etc.

 

[pkt77242]

Welfare spending has outpaced military spending, by the way. Federal and State spending on welfare is above 900 billion this year. That's for welfare programs for housing, food, etc. These programs include:
12 programs providing food aid;
12 programs funding social services;
12 educational assistance programs;
11 housing assistance programs;
10 programs providing cash assistance;
9 vocational training programs;
7 medical assistance programs;
3 energy and utility assistance programs; and,
3 child care and child development programs.

Spending for assistance programs has outpaced military spending since 1993. In fact, "Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, government has spent $19.8 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars) on means-tested welfare. In comparison, the cost of all military wars in U.S. history from the Revolutionary War through the current war in Afghanistan has been $6.98 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars).[3] The War on Poverty has cost three times as much as all other wars combined." This is from an article by Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation.

If you don't "trust" Heritage, it is all over the place that spending on assistance programs is around 1 trillion this year. Plus there are other charts out there that detail defense spending versus assistance program spending. So it's simply not true that we don't spend money on these programs.

First off military spending is much more than just war spending. 2009-2010 department of defense spending was $680+ billion alone. So at best your stat is misleading because who gives a **** how much was spent on wars, lets look at total military spending.

Also what are you considering assistance programs? Are Social Security and Medicare included? If so that is a little misleading as well.

So in closing, great job at having extremely misleading "facts".

 

[Rhode Irish]

Sounds like the million dollar question. Maybe the easy access to government handouts. Maybe a feeling of entitlement due to years of slavery. I understand that you want me to admit that black people have had it rough and I do. Historically speaking, blacks have had it rough but that was then. I grew up in a trailer; my mother being a secretary and my father a laborer in the summer and taxi driver in the winter. For a brief period of time my family even had to move into the basement of a family friend. However, my parents took no government assistance and raised me to believe that the only way my life would be better than the one they could provide was by hard work and a desire to achieve my goals. Thus far in life I consider myself a success. I have a great job, a beautiful family that wants for nothing and the ambition to do even better. Looking at the past is a wonderful way to miss the future. A quote I heard once was, "When you blame others you give up your power to change."

Three quick things in response to what people are saying in this thread, and then I'm done on this topic.

1. The same percentage of poor people lift themselves out of poverty, whether they are white or black. Poor people, white or black, face the same challenges and have the same problems. The difference is that a far greater percentage of blacks are poor. To ignore the history of black people in this country when trying to understand why that is is the height of ignorance.

2. What some of you are claiming is the cause of poverty is really a symptom of poverty. Poor people tend to have children out of wedlock and drop out of school at a much higher rate. There aren't a ton of rich kids getting pregnant and dropping out of school and becoming poor (its probably happened, but not a lot).

3. There is no war on poverty. That isn't what the social safety net is about. I believe in capitalism, but I also accept that you can't have a system that creates winners without also having losers. When it comes to resources, its a net sum game. So if we want to have a system where we can win, we have to accept the responsibility to use some of our winnings to create a safety net for those that don't win. It's a moral issue to me. Do I want to end hunger and untreated disease? Yeah. Those are reasonable goals. But we aren't eliminating poverty. Nobody that is serious thinks that is an achievable goal. That doesn't mean social programs aren't a good idea. Everybody can't be rich.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

While they aren't government choices there are things the government can decide to do that will greatly help at least 2 of those things. One would be to stop abstince only education and to teach students about contraception (or you know make insurance companies have to cover it, does that sound familiar?) and improve our education system so that more people do graduate from HS. While the government can not force you to graduate there are things that can be done to lower the drop out rate such as changing the student to teacher ratio (shockingly when students get more attention they do better), making school more interactive (more experiments in science class instead of reading from a book, while it costs more it keeps the students engaged), and helping the poorest students families more so that the students aren't working full time jobs on the side to help their family. There are many other things as well, such as adding more job training etc.

Kids need a curriculum to teach them about contraception? If you don't think that this info is plastered all over the TV and internet already have you ever considered that parents should be teaching their children about this? If you're going to rely solely on the schools to educate your children you're setting them up for failure.

 

[pkt77242]

Kids need a curriculum to teach them about contraception? If you don't think that this info is plastered all over the TV and internet already have you ever considered that parents should be teaching their children about this? If you're going to rely solely on the schools to educate your children you're setting them up for failure.

I believe in talking to my children about it but you had better believe that a large percentage of parents don't talk to their kids about contraception or if they do it is way to late. And are you ****ing kidding me about getting info on contraception from the internet. No child is looking up contraception on the internet. To further prove my point, studies have shown that abstinence only education helps students to wait but increases the pregnancy rate. Hmm that would seem to mean that for those students if they aren't hearing about it at school, then they aren't hearing about it anywhere else.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

Three quick things in response to what people are saying in this thread, and then I'm done on this topic.

1. The same percentage of poor people lift themselves out of poverty, whether they are white or black. Poor people, white or black, face the same challenges and have the same problems. The difference is that a far greater percentage of blacks are poor. To ignore the history of black people in this country when trying to understand why that is is the height of ignorance.

2. What some of you are claiming is the cause of poverty is really a symptom of poverty. Poor people tend to have children out of wedlock and drop out of school at a much higher rate. There aren't a ton of rich kids getting pregnant and dropping out of school and becoming poor (its probably happened, but not a lot).

3. There is no war on poverty. That isn't what the social safety net is about. I believe in capitalism, but I also accept that you can't have a system that creates winners without also having losers. When it comes to resources, its a net sum game. So if we want to have a system where we can win, we have to accept the responsibility to use some of our winnings to create a safety net for those that don't win. It's a moral issue to me. Do I want to end hunger and untreated disease? Yeah. Those are reasonable goals. But we aren't eliminating poverty. Nobody that is serious thinks that is an achievable goal. That doesn't mean social programs aren't a good idea. Everybody can't be rich.

When will we stop blaming history for their lack of success? Is it one year of blame for every year of slavery? Five years maybe? Should we use this as an excuse for the rest of eternity?

 

[WaveDomer]

First off military spending is much more than just war spending. 2009-2010 department of defense spending was $680+ billion alone. So at best your stat is misleading because who gives a **** how much was spent on wars, lets look at total military spending.

Also what are you considering assistance programs? Are Social Security and Medicare included? If so that is a little misleading as well.

So in closing, great job at having extremely misleading "facts".

Yeah, medicare and SS are not included. And the stats on war spending and military spending are not misleading. It's 2 different stats. So in closing, nice try. It was also in response to Bluto who thinks we should spend a fraction of what we spent in Iraq on assistance programs. Well, we do and we have been, more than a fraction.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

I believe in talking to my children about it but you had better believe that a large percentage of parents don't talk to their kids about contraception or if they do it is way to late. And are you ****ing kidding me about getting info on contraception from the internet. No child is looking up contraception on the internet. To further prove my point, studies have shown that abstinence only education helps students to wait but increases the pregnancy rate. Hmm that would seem to mean that for those students if they aren't hearing about it at school, then they aren't hearing about it anywhere else.

I'm not saying that they're researching contraception online. I'm saying that sex and condoms are all over TV and the internet in the form of ads. Also, if a parent chooses to not talk to their kids about sex then they clearly weren't ready to be parents themselves. The blame needs to be placed squarely on the parents' shoulders.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

When will we stop blaming history for their lack of success? Is it one year of blame for every year of slavery? Five years maybe? Should we use this as an excuse for the rest of eternity?

Can we include talking about those one guys... you know the Founding Fathers, whoever they are. Why do people still bring them up since it was so long ago? Everything America does we have to ask what would they think...

 

[In Lou I Trust]

First off military spending is much more than just war spending. 2009-2010 department of defense spending was $680+ billion alone. So at best your stat is misleading because who gives a **** how much was spent on wars, lets look at total military spending.

Also what are you considering assistance programs? Are Social Security and Medicare included? If so that is a little misleading as well.

So in closing, great job at having extremely misleading "facts".

Are you talking about a military budget that includes wages, health and educational benefits, and retirement pensions for military members/vets? Is that the number you're hoping to use?

 

[pkt77242]

When will we stop blaming history for their lack of success? Is it one year of blame for every year of slavery? Five years maybe? Should we use this as an excuse for the rest of eternity?

I would say part of your problem is that you only equate their problems to slavery which ended long ago. Look at the banks getting sued over predatory loan practices to minorities Wells Fargo pledges $425 million in lending to settle suit - May. 30, 2012

Racism still exists in our society it has just moved from the overt "blacks aren't allowed here" etc, to a less noticeable but still damaging form. http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_sentencing_review.pdf

 

[In Lou I Trust]

Can we include talking about those one guys... you know the Founding Fathers, whoever they are. Why do people still bring them up since it was so long ago? Everything America does we have to ask what would they think...

You're being serious or stupid? If you believe that this country is even remotely close to what the Founding Fathers envisioned you're delusional.