BK: Field Turf is Coming

[Patulski]

That's a lot to get out of such a small quote.

If you think the ship is sinking then bail. But we'll make it to port safe and sound.

Well, seeing that my Dad played for Leahy, I saw my first game in 1965, graduated in 1981 and my daughter graduated in 2005, I can tell you : The ship has been sinking since 1995. It is so completely obvious to me, who I daresay has a lot more experience (and ND blood running through my veins) with ND football than you.

You know where you can stick your "bail" comment. I'm not going to bail, I'm going to align my views- and my money- with those who want our tradition of greatness restored, not further eroded.

And who are you to tell me "we'll make it to port safe and sound". Are you involved in the university at a decision making level? If you are, the past two 8-5 seasons sucked, and Kelly is looking a lot like Bob Davie: A guy who produced mediocre teams, but had a ton of excuses why he failed and what he needed to succeed. This latest Kelly excuse, "that his players were awed by the stadium", is the most ridiculous excuse yet.

 

[gkIrish]

Well, seeing that my Dad played for Leahy, I saw my first game in 1965, graduated in 1981 and my daughter graduated in 2005, I can tell you : The ship has been sinking since 1995. It is so completely obvious to me, who I daresay has a lot more experience (and ND blood running through my veins) with ND football than you.

You know where you can stick your "bail" comment. I'm not going to bail, I'm going to align my views- and my money- with those who want our tradition of greatness restored, not further eroded.

And who are you to tell me "we'll make it to port safe and sound". Are you involved in the university at a decision making level? If you are, the past two 8-5 seasons sucked, and Kelly is looking a lot like Bob Davie: A guy who produced mediocre teams, but had a ton of excuses why he failed and what he needed to succeed. This latest Kelly excuse, "that his players were awed by the stadium", is the most ridiculous excuse yet.

With all due respect, this site probably isn't for you.

 

[95NDAlumNM]

Well, seeing that my Dad played for Leahy, I saw my first game in 1965, graduated in 1981 and my daughter graduated in 2005, I can tell you : The ship has been sinking since 1995. It is so completely obvious to me, who I daresay has a lot more experience (and ND blood running through my veins) with ND football than you.

You know where you can stick your "bail" comment. I'm not going to bail, I'm going to align my views- and my money- with those who want our tradition of greatness restored, not further eroded.

And who are you to tell me "we'll make it to port safe and sound". Are you involved in the university at a decision making level? If you are, the past two 8-5 seasons sucked, and Kelly is looking a lot like Bob Davie: A guy who produced mediocre teams, but had a ton of excuses why he failed and what he needed to succeed. This latest Kelly excuse, "that his players were awed by the stadium", is the most ridiculous excuse yet.

It is such a shame that a fellow grad has such a bad view of our university. We should support it with all we have. Ndnation.com is probably a better site for you to align your views.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Well, seeing that my Dad played for Leahy, I saw my first game in 1965, graduated in 1981 and my daughter graduated in 2005, I can tell you : The ship has been sinking since 1995. It is so completely obvious to me, who I daresay has a lot more experience (and ND blood running through my veins) with ND football than you.

You know where you can stick your "bail" comment. I'm not going to bail, I'm going to align my views- and my money- with those who want our tradition of greatness restored, not further eroded.

And who are you to tell me "we'll make it to port safe and sound". Are you involved in the university at a decision making level? If you are, the past two 8-5 seasons sucked, and Kelly is looking a lot like Bob Davie: A guy who produced mediocre teams, but had a ton of excuses why he failed and what he needed to succeed. This latest Kelly excuse, "that his players were awed by the stadium", is the most ridiculous excuse yet.

I could care less about who in your family played for whom. Comparing Kelly to Davie is just asinine. It's barely even worth a response.

 

[rocket31]

imagine, a 50 year old man is against field turf. *shocking*

 

[NDBoiler]

"Kelly’s thinking is, when you never get in the stadium for practice, it becomes “almost like the Basilica to the players” and erodes home-field advantage because of the awe factor."

Leahy, Ara and Holtz never had this problem, though they rarely practiced in the stadium and had far worse practice and locker room facilities. That's because the "awe factor" came from being more physical, disciplined teams. They beat the crap out of teams, and didn't make excuses when they lost.

I'm beginning to see Kelly as an excuse maker, who is more of a carnival barker than a coach worthy of Notre Dame's great tradition. I believe Swarbrick and Notre Dame's administration are culpable as well. While we can't produce on the field, we sell externialties (piped in music/numerous uniforms/field turf/possible Jubotron) as marketing gimmick solutions.
As we saw with the USC game-the "Crazy Train" game- no external gimmick can replace hard hitting and disciplined football. The same is going to happen with field turf. Better, more disciplined teams are going to beat us just as surely as they have on natural turf.

I'm sure there will be other excuses and gimmicks coming, as we continue this slow decline from the greatest college football program to a marketing sideshow.

In my opinion, you are missing the point on why these avenues are being pursued. It is all about recruiting today's kids. The teenage generation is the "internet generation", they of constant texting, tweeting, etc. The attention grabbing of high tech electronics/gadgets/whistles is what piques interest in the talented football-playing youth who we as fans want to come play at ND. That slow decline you are referring to is exactly what these attractions are aimed at counteracting. ND has maintained the ridgid, traditional ways for so long that they have significantly enabled this slow decline. They can still maintain many traditional elements while also incorporating these new concepts. If this isn't a solid strategy to reverse that trend, what do you propose as a solution?

 

[ChiRish]

What does "tradition" matter when you don't win? Notre Dame's tradition wasn't founded on having a grass field, or no music piped through a sound system, or not having a jumbotron, etc. It was founded more than anything else on perennial success.

The way that some people and the complete clowns at ND Nation try to use this issue as a proxy for Brian Kelly's supposed ineffectiveness and inability to lead this football team disgusts me. These people seriously believe that field turf is something being done by BK to be able to use as a crutch if ND loses?

I'm sick of ND Nation, and some others, and their misguided emphasis on "tradition." I love tradition, and I'm all for it, but I would NEVER let that get in the way of acclimating our program to modern standards that put us on a level playing field with other programs.

This is 2012. Most recruits don't care about tradition. Most care about winning in college and doing it with style, like every other 18 year old kid attempting to choose a school. Putting field turf in doesn't even give ND an advantage, it can simply level the playing field and allow our skill players to do their job more effectively.

But yeah, ND Nation. That's what we should do. Forget putting in turf - why don't we tear most of the extra seating down? Shiit, let's buck safety gear and bust out the leather helmets in the name of tradition.

BK, as it stands, is not a coach in over his head. He is not forsaking everything traditional about Notre Dame. Putting in field turf doesn't take away the tradition of Notre Dame football. He still has a lot to prove, but he's attempting to fix the major mistakes of the past and restore the true, most important ND tradition - WINNING.

 

[Patulski]

But Patulski, you better watch out for muddling* the waters with your own personality. I think Kelly has his finger on the pulse of his players wants and needs. I have never seen Kelly not take responsibility for his actions. In fact, in modern atheltics, where having a chest for it is a big thing, I find Kelly and his staff quite refreshing.

This has nothing to do with my "personality", and everything to do with my long association and experience with Notre Dame football.

As for Kelly having "his finger on the players pulse and needs": Kelly is 16-10. That's mediocre by historic ND standard. Par for the course in the post-Holtz era. I could care less how Kelly caters to his players-players come and go- as long as he doesn't take Notre Dame's tradition away. He wants to take away natural grass, and this "awed by a home stadium" idea is a whopper in the registry of excuse making coaches. I have seen two great coaches-Ara and Holtz- up close, and learned about Leahy from my Dad. Not in a million years would they say something so silly. They knew how to coach their players into disciplined teams. Their teams were disciplined at practice, at home and on the road. They didn't look to outside externialties to improve their team-that's what coaching was for- and they didn't mess with the tradition.

You tried to make this about my personality. It's only about my personality if you wish to dismiss those and their families with long associations with ND history, which includes team membership as a starter on undefeated (1948-1949) National Championship team.

So, if you're going to make it about my personality, make it about my Dad's also. He can't speak for himself (RIP). So, I speak for him.

 

[NDBoiler]

This has nothing to do with my "personality", and everything to do with my long association and experience with Notre Dame football.

As for Kelly having "his finger on the players pulse and needs": Kelly is 16-10. That's mediocre by historic ND standard. Par for the course in the post-Holtz era. I could care less how Kelly caters to his players-players come and go- as long as he doesn't take Notre Dame's tradition away. He wants to take away natural grass, and this "awed by a home stadium" idea is a whopper in the registry of excuse making coaches. I have seen two great coaches-Ara and Holtz- up close, and learned about Leahy from my Dad. Not in a million years would they say something so silly. They knew how to coach their players into disciplined teams. Their teams were disciplined at practice, at home and on the road. They didn't look to outside externialties to improve their team-that's what coaching was for- and they didn't mess with the tradition.

You tried to make this about my personality, It's only about my personality if you wish to dismiss those and their families with long associations with ND history, which includes team membership as a starter on undefeated (1948-1949) National Championship team.

So, if you're going to make it about my personality, make it about my Dad's also. He can't speak for himself (RIP). So, I speak for him.

Patulski - What do you suggest be done to improve the mediocre performance of the past 15-20 years? Note that that period of time is pretty consistent with changes in technology during that same time significantly influencing how today's youth interact and respond. It's tough to think abut changing traditional habits and concepts, but if that is necessary to a degree in order to attract top notch talent, what choice do you have?

 

[Patulski]

In my opinion, you are missing the point on why these avenues are being pursued. It is all about recruiting today's kids. The teenage generation is the "internet generation", they of constant texting, tweeting, etc. The attention grabbing of high tech electronics/gadgets/whistles is what piques interest in the talented football-playing youth who we as fans want to come play at ND. That slow decline you are referring to is exactly what these attractions are aimed at counteracting. ND has maintained the ridgid, traditional ways for so long that they have significantly enabled this slow decline. They can still maintain many traditional elements while also incorporating these new concepts. If this isn't a solid strategy to reverse that trend, what do you propose as a solution?

So you're telling me that the 5 turnovers that ND committed at Michigan last year-on field turf no less- was the result of not appealing enough to the internet generation?

I don't believe it one bit.

What I propose as a solution is that during the next search, we hire a proven coach with major conference experience who has had a track record that includes major upsets and major bowl wins. Call it the "Holtz model". Meet him halfway regarding control over the program. Make sure you sign him. This should be in progress right now.

 

[Patulski]

Patulski - What do you suggest be done to improve the mediocre performance of the past 15-20 years? Note that that period of time is pretty consistent with changes in technology during that same time significantly influencing how today's youth interact and respond. It's tough to think abut changing traditional habits and concepts, but if that is necessary to a degree in order to attract top notch talent, what choice do you have?

What I propose as a solution is that during the next search, we hire a proven coach with major conference experience who has had a track record that includes major upsets and major bowl wins. Call it the "Holtz model". Meet him halfway regarding control over the program. Make sure you sign him. This should be in progress right now.

 

[gkIrish]

So you're telling me that the 5 turnovers that ND committed at Michigan last year-on field turf no less- was the result of not appealing enough to the internet generation?

I don't believe it one bit.

What I propose as a solution is that during the next search, we hire a proven coach with major conference experience who has had a track record that includes major upsets and major bowl wins. Call it the "Holtz model". Meet him halfway regarding control over the program. Make sure you sign him. This should be in progress right now.

So you are suggesting that we put the program back another 3 years while a new coach named Saban, Miles, Meyer etc. leaves their current high profile job and establishes their system. Nevermind that you can't wave a magic wand and get the coach you want to agree to what you want him to agree to and maintain an ethical standard.

Reread what you just suggested five times and tell me that's realistic.

 

[NDBoiler]

What I propose as a solution is that during the next search, we hire a proven coach with major conference experience who has had a track record that includes major upsets and major bowl wins. Call it the "Holtz model". Meet him halfway regarding control over the program. Make sure you sign him. This should be in progress right now.

That's all well and good in theory, but how do you attract said coach if your school has been mediocre for the past 15-20 years? Don't you think that ND has tried to do that over the past few coach searches? For example, I recall Urban Meyer (a former ND assistant nonetheless) calling the ND job his "dream job", yet he didn't end up here (his personality would obviously be another issue). Therefore, you have to build up the program back to the familiar winning ways. In order to do that you must have top talent. In order to do that, you must have at your school those thigns that attract top talent.

 

[FLDomer]

This has nothing to do with my "personality", and everything to do with my long association and experience with Notre Dame football.

As for Kelly having "his finger on the players pulse and needs": Kelly is 16-10. That's mediocre by historic ND standard. Par for the course in the post-Holtz era. I could care less how Kelly caters to his players-players come and go- as long as he doesn't take Notre Dame's tradition away. He wants to take away natural grass, and this "awed by a home stadium" idea is a whopper in the registry of excuse making coaches. I have seen two great coaches-Ara and Holtz- up close, and learned about Leahy from my Dad. Not in a million years would they say something so silly. They knew how to coach their players into disciplined teams. Their teams were disciplined at practice, at home and on the road. They didn't look to outside externialties to improve their team-that's what coaching was for- and they didn't mess with the tradition.

You tried to make this about my personality. It's only about my personality if you wish to dismiss those and their families with long associations with ND history, which includes team membership as a starter on undefeated (1948-1949) National Championship team.

So, if you're going to make it about my personality, make it about my Dad's also. He can't speak for himself (RIP). So, I speak for him.

To each his own, just like you think BK is not good for ND, Bog can think you personality stinks and he never once addressed your father (RIP). My great grandfather played for Rockne and went on to the NFL, and a family history of ND but that doesnt make me more of an expert on ND.

 

[Patulski]

I could care less about who in your family played for whom. Comparing Kelly to Davie is just asinine. It's barely even worth a response.

If you're going to call comparing Kelly to Davie "asinine" I think you should back it up. Why isn't Kelly like Davie?

Here's my logic: Davie was 16-9 after two years. Kelly is 16-10. I used to listen to Davie's press conferences after his losses. Davie complained about the schedule, the practice facilities and how his players weren't up to Michigan State's standards. He could not simply say it's his fault. Now we have Kelly saying his team is in awe of the stadium and-after getting his a$$ handed to him by USC- that you can tell his players from Weis's. Now, instead of the practice facilities, its about the stadium.

Kelly and Davie: Sounding like two peas in a pod to me.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Where's Rudy going to sleep if there's no spare cot for the groundskeepers? Anyone thought about that?

 

[Patulski]

That's all well and good in theory, but how do you attract said coach if your school has been mediocre for the past 15-20 years? Don't you think that ND has tried to do that over the past few coach searches? For example, I recall Urban Meyer (a former ND assistant nonetheless) calling the ND job his "dream job", yet he didn't end up here (his personality would obviously be another issue). Therefore, you have to build up the program back to the familiar winning ways. In order to do that you must have top talent. In order to do that, you must have at your school those thigns that attract top talent.

I can tell you for a fact that when ND interviewed Urban Meyer he asked for 5 JUCO'S for three years to get ND's player personnel up to speed immediately. ND said no.

This is the kind of concession that ND should give to the next coach, who should also have "the Holtz factor" regarding experience and major bowl wins and upsets.

 

[woolybug25]

This has nothing to do with my "personality", and everything to do with my long association and experience with Notre Dame football.

As for Kelly having "his finger on the players pulse and needs": Kelly is 16-10. That's mediocre by historic ND standard. Par for the course in the post-Holtz era. I could care less how Kelly caters to his players-players come and go- as long as he doesn't take Notre Dame's tradition away. He wants to take away natural grass, and this "awed by a home stadium" idea is a whopper in the registry of excuse making coaches. I have seen two great coaches-Ara and Holtz- up close, and learned about Leahy from my Dad. Not in a million years would they say something so silly. They knew how to coach their players into disciplined teams. Their teams were disciplined at practice, at home and on the road. They didn't look to outside externialties to improve their team-that's what coaching was for- and they didn't mess with the tradition.

You tried to make this about my personality. It's only about my personality if you wish to dismiss those and their families with long associations with ND history, which includes team membership as a starter on undefeated (1948-1949) National Championship team.

So, if you're going to make it about my personality, make it about my Dad's also. He can't speak for himself (RIP). So, I speak for him.

If we are going to get into comparisons, Kelly's record is also on par with Holtz. Whom went 13-10 in his first two seasons. Furthermore, the belief that Holtz's teams were more fundamental and protected the ball better is a fallacy as shown here:

Turnovers & Penalties: What We've Learned (If Anything) Since 1981 - One Foot Down

In fact, during the Holtz era, the team with the most lost fumbles was his '88 team. It's funny how time can skew one's memory of something...

 

[NDBoiler]

I can tell you for a fact that when ND interviewed Urban Meyer he asked for 5 JUCO'S for three years to get ND's player personnel up to speed immediately. ND said no.

This is the kind of concession that ND should give to the next coach, who should also have "the Holtz factor" regarding experience and major bowl wins and upsets.

If you want to look at it that way, that flys in the face of what you are saying about maintaining tradition. ND's tradition is that they do not take JUCOs. If they allow that, what next? Field turf? Jumbotrons?

 

[Patulski]

So you are suggesting that we put the program back another 3 years while a new coach named Saban, Miles, Meyer etc. leaves their current high profile job and establishes their system. Nevermind that you can't wave a magic wand and get the coach you want to agree to what you want him to agree to and maintain an ethical standard.

Reread what you just suggested five times and tell me that's realistic.

We don't need to set the program back for three years. Like I said in my other posts, Urban Meyer wanted 5 JUCO's for 3 years. He wanted that because he wanted to upgrade the program's talent immediately, while improving the coaching. He knew that he needed to win immediately and gain momentum on the field that would generate recruit interest that ND was genuinely committed to being the best again. Had ND done that, we wouldn't be where we are today. But we didn't and we are still mired in mediocrity. So, I'd include that in the package to attract the right coach.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I can tell you for a fact that when ND interviewed Urban Meyer he asked for 5 JUCO'S for three years to get ND's player personnel up to speed immediately. ND said no.

This is the kind of concession that ND should give to the next coach, who should also have "the Holtz factor" regarding experience and major bowl wins and upsets.

But isn't changing the JUCO rule just another way of breaking "tradition" in the name of wins? When is it good and when is it bad? I think we can all agree that putting in field turf probably won't result in any less wins.

 

[woolybug25]

We don't need to set the program back for three years. Like I said in my other posts, Urban Meyer wanted 5 JUCO's for 3 years. He wanted that because he wanted to upgrade the program's talent immediately, while improving the coaching. He knew that he needed to win immediately and gain momentum on the field that would generate recruit interest that ND was genuinely committed to being the best again. Had ND done that, we wouldn't be where we are today. But we didn't and we are still mired in mediocrity. So, I'd include that in the package to attract the right coach.

So you are fine with completely trashing Notre Dame's tradition of academic excellence, but you draw the line on field turf?

 

[95NDAlumNM]

I can tell you for a fact that when ND interviewed Urban Meyer he asked for 5 JUCO'S for three years to get ND's player personnel up to speed immediately. ND said no.

This is the kind of concession that ND should give to the next coach, who should also have "the Holtz factor" regarding experience and major bowl wins and upsets.

JUCO's to me is something so anti ND that that is a bigger slap in the face of tradition that artificial turf or jumbotrons will ever be. If we start taking JUCO's then we would be just like other football factories and we would lose a piece of what makes us ND. No thank you.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Well, seeing that my Dad played for Leahy, I saw my first game in 1965, graduated in 1981 and my daughter graduated in 2005, I can tell you : The ship has been sinking since 1995. It is so completely obvious to me, who I daresay has a lot more experience (and ND blood running through my veins) with ND football than you.

You know where you can stick your "bail" comment. I'm not going to bail, I'm going to align my views- and my money- with those who want our tradition of greatness restored, not further eroded.

And who are you to tell me "we'll make it to port safe and sound". Are you involved in the university at a decision making level? If you are, the past two 8-5 seasons sucked, and Kelly is looking a lot like Bob Davie: A guy who produced mediocre teams, but had a ton of excuses why he failed and what he needed to succeed. This latest Kelly excuse, "that his players were awed by the stadium", is the most ridiculous excuse yet.

I love it. You rail on how nothing is changing with Kelly and that he's just like Davies, but then you rail on anything THAT THE PLAYERS LOVE and what will bring better recruits in. Deny it all you want, live in the past all you want, yell at the kids to get off your lawn all you want, but recruits want to see this stuff, and if they love it, then that's all that matters. And yes, winning will bring more recruits than anything, but the things that Kelly has been bringing in that the traditionalists hate (training table, slightly relaxed standards, field turf, jumbotron, etc etc etc) are helping build a better program.

(Seriously, if you want people to pay attention to your views and take them seriously, then you might want to pay more attention to ND football. Kelly has his faults and has made mistakes, no doubt. But Bob Davie??? C'mon...do better)

Edit: I almost finished this post like an hour ago but had to put me baby to sleep. Many other posters already addressed what I did in the hour that I missed.)

 

[rocket31]

disregard academic excellence as long as we play on a shoddy grass lawn.

strong logic. makes perfect sense. would read again.

 

[Patulski]

If you want to look at it that way, that flys in the face of what you are saying about maintaining tradition. ND's tradition is that they do not take JUCOs. If they allow that, what next? Field turf? Jumbotrons?

One's a temporary change (3 years) of personnel. The others are long term changes of the stadium. One is necessary to win. The others aren't.

Get the right coach, give him 15 JUCO's and this entire debate will be over.

Instead, I suspect we're going to change our stadium traditions, but like the results of the Gug and the LaBarr facility, the product on the field will remain the same.

 

[Chamellion]

Dude I'm scared of you. Where should I stick my comment? I'm a little hazy over here with Kellys championship pedigree staring me in the face

Who would come here if we fired Kelly right as we started to turn it around. It all starts with recruiting, and he's great at it. Then developing players, and his track record suggests that as well.

You say we need 3 years to rebuild? Remind me how many years Kelly has had? Two? Go back into your ND decorated basement and let the administration run the program.

 

[NDBoiler]

We don't need to set the program back for three years. Like I said in my other posts, Urban Meyer wanted 5 JUCO's for 3 years. He wanted that because he wanted to upgrade the program's talent immediately, while improving the coaching. He knew that he needed to win immediately and gain momentum on the field that would generate recruit interest that ND was genuinely committed to being the best again. Had ND done that, we wouldn't be where we are today. But we didn't and we are still mired in mediocrity. So, I'd include that in the package to attract the right coach.

Let's for a moment disregard the JUCO issue. What I still would like to see is an explanantion of how you attract the top level coach to ND after the past 15-20 years of mediocrity? For the sake of expediency, I don't have the names in front of me to back this up (I am sure others may...cough...cough...wooly), but I am fairly confident many top level caoches have been pursued during the post Davie/Willingham/O'Leary/Weis searches. dont you think ND's mediocrity and rigidity have played a role in turning these coaches away? The key is winning as we all know, which goes back to my earlier post - to win, you need top talent, to get top talent you need that which will attract top talent to your school. Once that falls into place, you don't need to be searching for a new coach. You'll already have one, who has revitalized a proud, storied program.

 

[JadeBrecks]

<a href="http://media.photobucket.com/image/eating popcorn smileys/SilentWolf8979/Smileys/thmf_popcorn.gif?o=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss88/SilentWolf8979/Smileys/thmf_popcorn.gif" border="0"></a>

 

[woolybug25]

One's a temporary change (3 years) of personnel. The others are long term changes of the stadium. One is necessary to win. The others aren't.

Get the right coach, give him 15 JUCO's and this entire debate will be over.

Instead, I suspect we're going to change our stadium traditions, but like the results of the Gug and the LaBarr facility, the product on the field will remain the same.

You cant take back what has been done. Once we took JUCO's, we would be in the same realm of the rest of college football. Most JUCO transfers are in JUCO because of poor grades as well. So the university would have to make academic concessions to do what you are implying. Furthermore, it's not like a coach isn't going to want to continue doing it to stay competitive. I would rather have a coach that willing to put the work and time in necessary to build a program back up the right way (ala Harbaugh at Stanford).

Academic excellence and INTEGRITY is far more important to the tradition of Notre Dame football than the effing grass we play on.