Unrealistic expectations...

enrico514

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I'm sure this has been mentioned a million times but I think it's worth repeating to keep things in perspective.
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I'm old enough to remember the late 80s and early 90s... our program was great!!! Today, I want it back where it belongs... at the top of college football. Unfortunately, wanting or wishing for something doesn't necessarily make it happen.

We are ND... but we hadn't been getting ND caliber classes for quite some time. According to Rivals, our 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 classes were respectively ranked 24th, 12th, 32nd and 40th. No wonder the media (lead by ESPN/ABC) didn't want Ty to leave South Bend. He was helping make us obsolete. We may not want to admit it and we may believe that we should be a top 10 team but unfortunately, we haven't had top 10 talent for quite some time. To be honest, we didn't even have top 20 talent most years. Hell, there was a stretch when our upperclassmen talent wasn't even top 35!!! The reason we haven't been beating top teams for the last couple of years is rather simple. The talent gap between us and them was huge.

Our judgement of CW is greatly influenced by the 2007 and 2008 seasons. On the surface, his numbers are not acceptable and I'm the first to admit that. But if you look a bit deeper you quickly realise that the team's abismal performance was mostly due to the lack of football talent at ND prior to 2006. You may or may not like CW and his personality but you cannot blame him for the incredible lack of upperclassmen talent during those two seasons. We lost some games we probably should have won but the coaching staff made the decision to play the younger players who were significantly more talented. They made numerous mistakes but that wasn't one of them. In my opinion, their biggest mistake was mismanaging their fanbase's expections by not admitting 2007 and 2008 were rebuilding years. But that's a hard thing to do. Anyone who would have taken the time to look at the facts instead of remembering past glory and hoping the same would magically occur could have reasonably expected the losses and the brutal performance of the team over that two year stretch. We have great expectations for ND but we also owe it to our team to have realistic expectations. How can a team that didn't have top 20 talent be expected to compete with a USC. It's worst class form 2003 to 2007 was ranked #3!!!

For ND, things started to change in 2006 and 2007 with two consecutive classes ranked at #8 followed by a #2 class in 2008. The foundation for continued success in now finally in place. We can finally realistically start believing that we can contend. USC still has significantly more talent than us and even Michigan, with all their problems still have more paper talent than we do. But with a top 10 class in 2010 we finally become a team with overall top 10 talent. Weis has done an incredible job recruiting over the last couple of years. No wonder the media want him out of South Bend asap!!!

Do we have great Head Coach? The media may want him out but even after 5 years it is be too early for me to make a decision either way. After looking looking at the numbers and digging into the facts, I can't put much weight on what happened during the 2007 and 2008 seasons. Most if not all the coaches now being talked about to replace him would most likely have also been destroyed over that stretch. That's the reason no one wanted the job!!! Personally, I will not let ESPN/ABC force me into making a bad decision that could potentially be disastrous for the program. I hope the AD does the same. CW should be back in 2010 unless the team totally melts down in the next three game. Not because I think that he deserves it but because that is the best decision for the program.
 
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jason_h537

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This has been discussed to great extentin the past. I give Weis a pass for 07 and 08 but this year should be a step foreward. Everything seemed to be going accordingly until the Navy game. That loss is should not have happened at this point. Now i will not say fire Weis with 3 games and a bowl to go. 10-3 is a positive sign after 07-08. This team is in better shape but that doesnt mean we can tolerate mediocraty. a 4 loss season with this talent is unacceptable. If he loses this week i can no longer argue for his job security.
 

enrico514

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This has been discussed to great extentin the past. I give Weis a pass for 07 and 08 but this year should be a step foreward. Everything seemed to be going accordingly until the Navy game. That loss is should not have happened at this point. Now i will not say fire Weis with 3 games and a bowl to go. 10-3 is a positive sign after 07-08. This team is in better shape but that doesnt mean we can tolerate mediocraty. a 4 loss season with this talent is unacceptable. If he loses this week i can no longer argue for his job security.

I agree but my point was to remind people how 2007 and 2008 (probably) unfairly affect how we judge CW. Great teams lose against teams they shouldn't every week. Without that 2 year stretch, he wouldn't be on the hot seat after loosing to a solid team which Navy is.
 
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WaveDomer

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It is unrealistic to expect BCS every year. But seriously, does Navy have a better level of talent than ND? Does Syracuse? I get that Florida, USC and other elite programs may have a higher talent level at some positions, but ND has some serious talent level. Just on offense we have possibly the best QB in the country, best TE in the country, best WR in the country, and best WR duo in the country. What more do you want in terms of talent? Still ND struggles to put points on the board and grind it for short/needed yardage. This is lack of fundamentals. Talent level is great but without team chemistry and coaching, talent is going to get you nothing but a headache. This team has the talent. They have the chemistry. I believe they have the heart. So what's missing?

I'm not a Weis hater. If he wins out or only loses one more I wouldn't be shocked or angry to see him back. I hope he puts it together and makes ND a great program. I just see what I see.
 

schuec

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I've been saying this for years too, if 9-3, 10-2 isn't good enough, who wants this job? I wonder if not playing for conference titles hurts ND. Sometimes it seems it is national championship or bust. Maybe if we could say we've won some conference titles the heat wouldn't be so much all the time. I am no way saying join a conference, just saying claiming to win something would take heat off. I understand we should never lose to navy, but you can say usc should never lose to washington or oregon state, or michigan should never lose to app state, or iowa shouldn't almost lose to northern iowa. The point.......bad loses happen. I don't care who is coaching ND....with the ridiculous expectations that are in place, they will never be met. Sorry rant over lol.
 

WaveDomer

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I've been saying this for years too, if 9-3, 10-2 isn't good enough, who wants this job? I wonder if not playing for conference titles hurts ND. Sometimes it seems it is national championship or bust. Maybe if we could say we've won some conference titles the heat wouldn't be so much all the time. I am no way saying join a conference, just saying claiming to win something would take heat off. I understand we should never lose to navy, but you can say usc should never lose to washington or oregon state, or michigan should never lose to app state, or iowa shouldn't almost lose to northern iowa. The point.......bad loses happen. I don't care who is coaching ND....with the ridiculous expectations that are in place, they will never be met. Sorry rant over lol.

Well, when ND is 9-3 or 10-2 we can answer that question.
 

phork

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I agree but my point was to remind people how 2007 and 2008 (probably) unfairly affect how we judge CW. Great teams lose against teams they shouldn't every week. Without that 2 year stretch, he wouldn't be on the hot seat after loosing to a solid team which Navy is.

So do we just wipe out the entire 4 years of his reign? Which was the good and which was the bad? The initial 2 BCS seasons, or the last 2 seasons? Is this the sole year he should be judged on?

Nothing is wrong with his part in the team. The offense is awesome. The defense has sucked for 5 straight years.
 

WaveDomer

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Well if we keep switching coaches every 4 or 5 yrs we will never consistently see 9-3 or 10-2.

How do you figure? It took Holtz 3 years to win a NC. Coaches turn teams into consistent winners in 5 years or less all the time.
 

wakeuptheechoes

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Dan Devine took over from Ara and everyone thought the world was lost, including me, and yet 3 years later he won a NC.
 

schuec

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Fair points and I'm not saying it can't be done, but good programs don't have coaching turnover every 4 or 5 years. ND has had 3 coaches in 12 or 13 years, and maybe 4 coaches soon. That is not a good thing, and the year to year job insecurity does nothing for the program.
 

byutzy

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These are the facts. Charlie has shown brilliant play calling at times and then at times has made horrible calls, but overall he has far out done our last 2 coaches in the offensive scheme. He has been our best recruiter in quite some time. He has led us to a top ten offense. Our D is what is the major problem. I think Tenuta has to go after the season unless if he shows us some humility and changes some things that lead to major improvement, starting next week. I am not sure about Corwin, I like him alot as a person but he is the secondary specialist. What is the problem back there? I personally think it is mostly Tenuta. Now Charlie has to take the ultimate blame, so he had better be making some changes with this defense. If he can get that figured out by next fall by either coaching changes or scheme, with all our experience and talent that will likely come back if Charlie keeps his job and some of these defensive recruits that are absolute studs coming in, we could run the table next year. FAITH, PATIENCE, DETERMINATION, AND ALL DAY TOUGHNESS COULD TAKE US THE DISTANCE IN 2010. ( EVEN WHEN EVERYTHING GOES AGAINST US, LIKE IN THE NAVY GAME)!
 

TDHeysus

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I'm sure this has been mentioned a million times....(abbreviated).....Not because I think that he deserves it but because that is the best decision for the program.

unfortunetly, I dont think alot of weis-haters put in as much thought/analysis as you did. if more ppl did, I think more of those ppl would see that this is not all on CW. I also think if ppl thought it thru enough, they would see that blowing out CW now, will not improve the situation, especially in the short term. There was alot that contributed to the demise of this program over year and years, to think that changing 1 cog(CW) is going to make everything better is looking at it thru pollyanna-colored glasses.

your last statement sums it up for me, you say "not because you think he deserves it, but because its best for the program." I see that as seperating logic from emotion, and coming to a decision based on logic. alot ppl cant seperate logic from emotion like you did with that statement.

its far too much easier just to say, fire the guy.
 
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BGIF

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Fair points and I'm not saying it can't be done, but good programs don't have coaching turnover every 4 or 5 years. ND has had 3 coaches in 12 or 13 years, and maybe 4 coaches soon. That is not a good thing, and the year to year job insecurity does nothing for the program.

Actually it's worse.

'96 Holtz
'97 Davie
'01 O'Leary
'01 Willingham
'05 Weis
'09 ?
 

Sam Crow

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Firing him wont solve the problem right away. and i know all you guys and is results and fast if we fire him we get set back a few year. give the guy a chance
 

byutzy

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unfortunetly, I dont think alot of weis-haters put in as much thought/analysis as you did. if more ppl did, I think more of those ppl can see that this is not all on CW. I also think if ppl thought it thru enough, they would see that blowing out CW now, will not improve the situation. There was alot that contributed to the demise of this program, to think that changing 1 cog(CW) is going to make everything better is looking at it thru pollyanna-colored glasses.

its far too much easier just to say, fire the guy.

COMPLETELY AGREE! IF WE FIRE CHARLIE NOW, JUST WAIT AND SEE WHERE THIS PROGRAM IS IN 5 YEARS. MOST LIKELY A VERY SIMULAR SITUATION. WE CAN'T REPEAT THE PAST AGAIN!
 

NeuteredDoomer

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So do we just wipe out the entire 4 years of his reign? Which was the good and which was the bad? The initial 2 BCS seasons, or the last 2 seasons? Is this the sole year he should be judged on?

Nothing is wrong with his part in the team. The offense is awesome. The defense has sucked for 5 straight years.

Special teams have been atrocious during his entire reign.
 

irishfan

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Nothing is wrong with his part in the team. The offense is awesome. The defense has sucked for 5 straight years.

The D was good in 2007 lol. Just bad timing that we had no Offense.
 

NDinMemphis

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If ND can't get Meyer/Saban/Stoops, then I think ND should stay on board with Weis. IMO, don't make a change unless you know that the person you are bringing in has as close to 100% chance of maintaining the current recruiting class. It also doesn't hurt that each of the three aforementioned coaches have proven track records at major programs. Just my 2 cents....
 

DirtySecret

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How do you figure? It took Holtz 3 years to win a NC. Coaches turn teams into consistent winners in 5 years or less all the time.

Lou also had the luxury of recruiting 135 schollie players!! That's a moot arguement to make..
 

enrico514

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Lou also had the luxury of recruiting 135 schollie players!! That's a moot arguement to make..

I would also add that unless I'm seriously mistaking Gerry Faust left Lou with a good deal of talent.
 
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enrico514

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If ND can't get Meyer/Saban/Stoops, then I think ND should stay on board with Weis. IMO, don't make a change unless you know that the person you are bringing in has as close to 100% chance of maintaining the current recruiting class. It also doesn't hurt that each of the three aforementioned coaches have proven track records at major programs. Just my 2 cents....

I'm not as familiar with Stoops kids but neither Meyer nor Saban would be able to recruit the same type of players they have recruited in the last couple years.
 

NDinFL

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great post enrico

great post enrico

I fully agree. It does take time to reload a program, and since Willingham recruited like crap then it's on Charlie's shoulders to bring the good players in, and let's be honest...so far he's done a pretty damn good job of doing that. I suppose the arguement could be made that since he is an offensive minded guy that he recruited mainly O first, and coaches O first, which in turn is why our D has suffered, but as stated before....I'm all for the "give him time" theme. If we win out, and have a solid recruiting class, then there is no reason not to let him stay onboard.

I'll put it this way...Notre Dame controls it's own destiny from GAME 1 EVERY SEASON. If we were to make it through the whole year with ONE loss, then there is NO reason we wouldn't be in the BCS title game!! and if we let Charlie keep building this program the way he is, I think we might be able to make it there. Instead of scrapping a coaching staff, offensive/defensive system, and recruits every 5 years when we don't go undefeated. There is too much paradoy in college football to do that every year.
 

phork

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The D was good in 2007 lol. Just bad timing that we had no Offense.

weird ya i was watching some highlights from 2007 and the defense was not the problem, they played well.

Really...

33-3
31-10
38-0
31-14
33-19
27-14
38-0
41-24

I realize this was a lot to do with the offense, but really.
 

enrico514

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So do we just wipe out the entire 4 years of his reign? Which was the good and which was the bad? The initial 2 BCS seasons, or the last 2 seasons? Is this the sole year he should be judged on?

Nothing is wrong with his part in the team. The offense is awesome. The defense has sucked for 5 straight years.

I'm not saying to wipe out the first 4 years of his reign... I'm saying to look at the numbers and put them in perspective. That's all.
 

irishfan

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Really...

33-3
31-10
38-0
31-14
33-19
27-14
38-0
41-24

I realize this was a lot to do with the offense, but really.

Agreed, the points per game in 2007 were weak (28.8) but we were #2 in passing yards per game and #39 in total yards per game. As a team we were 107th in time of possession though so our D really had to work pretty hard to hold teams to under 30.

Other stats of note from Tenuta's 2007 D at Ga Tech:

#1 in sacks (47.5) and sacks per game (3.65)
#2 in tackles for loss (111.5) and tackles for loss per game (8.58)
#21 in scoring defense (20.8)
#20 in rushing defense
#41 in passing defense
#20 in total defense
#18 in opponent's 3rd down conversions

I'm pretty against Tenuta at the moment, but those numbers almost make me think he needs another couple years lol
 

jonesman

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ND in Memphis,
I see you asking for Stoops, Meyer and Saban. Why not ask for Kiffin while you are at it?? Oh thats right, he has some serious criminal issues to deal with on his team. The reason those guys cannot succeed at ND is similar to CW. ND does NOT take JUCO's or marginal characters. Look at the kids on Saban's D, you will find JUCO heaven. As for Stoops, he brings in 5-6 each year. This is how these coaches plug those holes that high school recruiting may have missed. ND does not have the luxury. Just how good would we be with two monster DT to put a rush on the QB without blitzing??? Just ponder!
 
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