Texas High School Builds $60M Stadium

[RallySonsOfND]

Regardless of where the money comes from it sends the wrong message. I think that's what most people on here that find this ridiculous mean, I know I do at least.

They are still out of line. The bond was passed like 3-4 years ago, the schools finances I'm sure where much different. You also can't use bond money for teachers and staff anyways. Plus this stadium is going to give more opportunities for generating money for the district.

 

[Onemanwolfpack]

I live in Allen about 2 miles from the stadium. Believe me, I understand a $60MM stadium is ridiculous for high school football. Also, I moved here after the bond was approved.

I will never be one to justify the stadium at that cost when one for half of that (or less than half) would be more than sufficient. The school is enormous (5,300 students) and had a facility that was bad for a high school in any state, let alone football crazed Texas. So, there was definitely a need for the stadium, but again, at what cost.

The bond that approved the stadium was a $120MM bond that included a performing art center, and a service center. Apparently, the bond was approved by 64% of the voters. Keep in mind the bond was issued before the market tanked in 2008. They also timed the bond issuance to capitalize on the momentum of the schools first state football championship.

Shortly after the bond approval, the market has tanked. Additionally, city growth and growth in city revenues have fallen well short of expectations. So, this has led to the subsequent cuts. Again, I am not one to defend the ridiculous expense of the stadium but they made the approval and commitment at the worst possible time. No way it would get approved again, but too late for that.

Thought you all may want to know the context since there is a thread on this. Happy to try and answer more questions if you have them.

 

[irishfanjho15]

They are still out of line. The bond was passed like 3-4 years ago, the schools finances I'm sure where much different. You also can't use bond money for teachers and staff anyways. Plus this stadium is going to give more opportunities for generating money for the district.

I don't see how having an opinion that doesn't directly represent yours is out of line, but it isn't the first thing or the last thing on this board I won't get. Sounds like you fall into the 64% for while I would have fallen in the 36% against. To each his own.

 

[BGIF]

I just don't understand the outrage. It's not JUST a football stadium they also have a weight room, a wrestling room, AND an indoor golf facility.

18,000 seats AND PRIVATE BOXES.

The video board is the 38th largest in the U.S. including Speedways, NFL, MLB, and NCAA per Wiki.

Only 17 NCAA stadium screens are bigger.

Only two colleges in Texas have bigger screens, UTX and A&M (barely)

NCAA FBS stadia with smaller screens include ALA, AUB, FSU, LSU, ORE, UGA, CLEM, WIS, OKST (take that Boone Pickens), and the Rose Bowl.

None of the 35 NCAA FCS school's screens are 50% the size of Allen's.

 

[ndfi78]

I came in to say the same things as Onemanwolfpack (down to the living 2 miles away), but he said it much more eloquently.

 

[woolybug25]

Some of these responses are comical. The people of this school district voted to build this with money raised by a bond proposal, completely separate from the district's operating budget. So the budget cuts going on would still be happening even without the new stadium.

That's being disingenuous. The bonds were created through tax dollars. The same tax dollars that were too low to fund education by $4B in the state. So while they were making these drastic cuts to education, the Texas voters chose to voluntarily raise their taxes in order to build a high school football stadium. They could have chose to use those increased tax dollars to keep the 40 teachers they fired, or buy new technology or give scholarships to high achieving students.

but no... field turf....

It's from Tombstone -- you should watch it sometime. Great movie.

Great flick.

 

[Cackalacky]

That's being disingenuous. The bonds were created through tax dollars. The same tax dollars that were too low to fund education by $4B in the state. So while they were making these drastic cuts to education, the Texas voters chose to voluntarily raise their taxes in order to build a high school football stadium. They could have chose to use those increased tax dollars to keep the 40 teachers they fired, or buy new technology or give scholarships to high achieving students.

but no... field turf....

Great flick.

Although I dont know the specifics, sometimes, projects such as these are in the planning stages for years. They have to go through several phases before being built, to include iniital approval by public and governement, fund raising, public comment periods, design phases, another public comment phase, proposal and bidding phase, and finally the construction phase. I admit I do not know nor care when it was this all happened relative to the last few years when budget cuts were proposed, but from an engineering point of view as well as the availability of funds and when they could be used, this may have impacted their choices on if to proceed and how best to proceed.

From my own personal opinion, I agree, field turf and Jumbotron versus teachers = poor investment for the community. We are slowly turning in the Colesseum era of Rome.....ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!

 

[ClausentoTate]

In case people are wanting to chastise the entire state of TX for being irresponsible like this, my HS had around the same amount of students (5.3k about 10 years ago) and we had about 10k seats, no jumbotron and had to share our field with our rivals. We always fielded a pretty good team and were crazy about football but didn't spend money like this (even though the money was there).

Gotta say, I'm entirely ok with it. That school is a powerhouse. The money couldn't have gone toward teachers anyway. It's a shame but it's how the system works.

 

[woolybug25]

In case people are wanting to chastise the entire state of TX for being irresponsible like this, my HS had around the same amount of students (5.3k about 10 years ago) and we had about 10k seats, no jumbotron and had to share our field with our rivals. We always fielded a pretty good team and were crazy about football but didn't spend money like this (even though the money was there).

Gotta say, I'm entirely ok with it. That school is a powerhouse. The money couldn't have gone toward teachers anyway. It's a shame but it's how the system works.

This isn't true. Just because the stadium was paid for with bonds, doesn't mean that the taxpayers could have voted no to the stadium. They could have gave the reasoning that their schools were in drastic cost-cutting and that if taxes were raised, that money should go to funding actual education. Everyone keeps acting like the people of this city couldn't have chose to use this money elsewhere, but they could have.

The school may be a powerhouse in football, but they had a $4.5MM shortfall last year and fired 40 teachers. They have an underfunded technology program. This school is failing their student body in exchange for field turf. I'm not even saying that they shouldn't have built a new field, but one at the cost of $60MM to taxpayers is ridiculous when you consider those same taxpayers are unwilling to raise their taxes to fill the $4B education shortfall their state has. Meanwhile, they consistently under perform compared to the rest of the country.

But hey... they whats wrong with shorting 99% of their students educations if it sends 2-3 more kids a year to college for football? right?....

 

[ndfi78]

woolybug, did you read Onemanwolfpack's post?

 

[BGIF]

and yet Texas ranks last in adults with high school diplomas....

I think the stadium cost is excessive but the stat you're banging away at, ranges from a low of 80% to a high of 92% in 5 groups with 2 pt increments. Since when is 80% a Failing Grade? Get real.

And next time you might want to quote data from a group that knows that Maine and Montana are not BOTH abbreviated, ME.

 

[BurningRiver]

how cool would it be to be a high school player playing your home games in front of a consistent crowd of 18,000+?

 

[BGIF]

u know what they say about TX!

Something about Steers and ... happy Chick-fil-A customers.

 

[woolybug25]

I think the stadium cost is excessive but the stat you're banging away at, ranges from a low of 80% to a high of 92% in 5 groups with 2 pt increments. Since when is 80% a Failing Grade? Get real.

And next time you might want to quote data from a group that knows that Maine and Montana are not BOTH abbreviated, ME.

Do you even know what Brookings does? They are the leading independent education research organization in the country. They consistently rank as the most influential, most quoted and most trusted think tank.

If you actually went to the site and read their research instead of nitpicking a graph you would know that...

 

[woolybug25]

woolybug, did you read Onemanwolfpack's post?

I did, but as I said, it is misleading.

I work in corporate finance and we have a municipal division that works extensively with bonds. Municipal Bonds, like regular financing, have to be issued. They have an outstanding "approval", but that doesn't mean the entire amount needs to be issued. The city could say, "well dang, we have a massive education shortfall, so maybe $60MM is excessive. Let's only issue $20MM of bonds".


Acting like this situation is an unstoppable situation is ridiculous. As I said earlier, i'm guessing that you wont find many people in that town willing to raise their taxes to help their failing schools, but when it comes to field turf.... 64% of them are all in..... for you know... for the children....

 

[Cackalacky]

I did, but as I said, it is misleading.

I work in corporate finance and we have a municipal division that works extensively with bonds. Municipal Bonds, like regular financing, have to be issued. They have an outstanding "approval", but that doesn't mean the entire amount needs to be issued. The city could say, "well dang, we have a massive education shortfall, so maybe $60MM is excessive. Let's only issue $20MM of bonds".

Acting like this situation is an unstoppable situation is ridiculous. As I said earlier, i'm guessing that you wont find many people in that town willing to raise their taxes to help their failing schools, but when it comes to field turf.... 64% of them are all in..... for you know... for the children....

WIN.
Though. they did riase the property taxes by $0.13 in an area where the median income is $85,000 per year to offset those education cuts. ARE THEY NOT MERCIFUL.

 

[BGIF]

Do you even know what Brookings does? They are the leading independent education research organization in the country. They consistently rank as the most influential, most quoted and most trusted think tank.

If you actually went to the site and read their research instead of nitpicking a graph you would know that...

I READ the information you presented. What a coincidence that there was a thread on IE a few days ago about sloppy errors affecting credibility.


And once again, since when is 80% a failing grade?

 

[Veer option]

Something about Steers and ... happy Chick-fil-A customers.

This needed more recognition. grin:

 

[woolybug25]

I READ the information you presented. What a coincidence that there was a thread on IE a few days ago about sloppy errors affecting credibility.


And once again, since when is 80% a failing grade?

I don't know, ask them (Brookings - Quality. Independence. Impact.). I just told you where they ranked, not how they come up with the ranking system.


I don't know how another thread about errors has anything to do with this conversation, mean-head...

 

[ndfi78]

I did, but as I said, it is misleading.

I work in corporate finance and we have a municipal division that works extensively with bonds. Municipal Bonds, like regular financing, have to be issued. They have an outstanding "approval", but that doesn't mean the entire amount needs to be issued. The city could say, "well dang, we have a massive education shortfall, so maybe $60MM is excessive. Let's only issue $20MM of bonds".


Acting like this situation is an unstoppable situation is ridiculous. As I said earlier, i'm guessing that you wont find many people in that town willing to raise their taxes to help their failing schools, but when it comes to field turf.... 64% of them are all in..... for you know... for the children....

I believe in Texas bonds have to be spent on what the the voters approved. I'm trying to find verification of that.

 

[woolybug25]

I believe in Texas bonds have to be spent on what the the voters approved. I'm trying to find verification of that.

They have to be spent on what they were approved for, but they don't have to issue the amount of bonds. For instance, if they wanted to use the bonds for a new computer lab, they would need a completely new approval for that. But if they decided that they didn't need the Jumbotron, they would simply issue less bonds. In buildouts like stadiums, they have lots of different schedules for individual pieces of equipment. They do that so the bonds aren't all dependent of each other in regards to asset approvals.

but please, get verification.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I know a lot of people in this area, and can say with near certainty that spending less on this stadium would not have resulted in a single additional dime toward any general education funds.

In Texas, the money you save on property taxes goes directly into your personal poolside-BBQ and Beer fund.

 

[woolybug25]

I know a lot of people in this area, and can say with near certainty that spending less on this stadium would not have resulted in a single additional dime toward any general education funds.

In Texas, the money you save on property taxes goes directly into your personal poolside-BBQ and Beer fund.

I never said that the money would go to the schools, I said the exact opposite in fact. This part of the country would go nuts if their taxes got raised for education. But that money is coming from a tax increase for the stadium. So it is quite hypocrytical of them to ignore a $4.5MM education shortfall but willingly agree to a tax hike for a football stadium for that same school. I think that is what you are saying though as well. lol

If that community was willing to have that same tax hike but spend less on the stadium, they could issue separate bonds for things like cpu's, classroom upgrades or simply teacher's salaries. So would spending less on the stadium create more money for the school?... no... but that is because the bonds issued for this are specific to the stadium. They would in turn pay less in their tax hike for these bonds though. So if the city still wanted to utilize that tax increase, they could issue new bonds for completely different projects aimed to improve their ability to improve children's education.

 

[ndfi78]

If that community was willing to have that same tax hike but spend less on the stadium, they could issue separate bonds for things like cpu's, classroom upgrades or simply teacher's salaries. So would spending less on the stadium create more money for the school?... no... but that is because the bonds issued for this are specific to the stadium. They would in turn pay less in their tax hike for these bonds though. So if the city still wanted to utilize that tax increase, they could issue new bonds for completely different projects aimed to improve their ability to improve children's education.

I am that community and I am willing to pay more in taxes for education. You are also acting like Allen is some horrible school system that only cares about football, they are consistently highly rated in education. That is one of the reasons we moved here. You have been saying that they could have spent less money on the stadium and thus the budget shortfall would have been solved. It wouldn't have. They are separate funds. In this post I see that you acknowledged that isn't the case.

It’s not like they could have solved this year’s shortfall with immediate tax increases. These things take time.

 

[Cackalacky]

I am that community and I am willing to pay more in taxes for education. You are also acting like Allen is some horrible school system that only cares about football, they are consistently highly rated in education. That is one of the reasons we moved here. You have been saying that they could have spent less money on the stadium and thus the budget shortfall would have been solved. It wouldn't have. They are separate funds. In this post I see that you acknowledged that isn't the case.

It’s not like they could have solved this year’s shortfall with immediate tax increases. These things take time.

I think what wooly is getting at is what Allen easily could have done instead of taking $60mil in bonds for the football stadium, is say we will only take $35mil for the stadium and from a separate bond use $25 mil to shore up the shortfall and invest in the children's education....if Allen was willing to take a tax hike to raise $60 mil in bonds in the first place....

P.S. So I believe yes, that is how they could have easily filled their shortfall, saved 44 teachers jobs and invested in children's education. It would take no time at all. They chose football over education..... but I am not surprised by this considering the whole Texas school board of education "Creationism versus Evolution" fiasco. Thank goodness the new school board unamimously approved an acceptable science curriculum.

 

[TheSunIsRising]

I imagine that Buddy Garritty, Charles Billingsley, Boobie Miles, Coach Taylor, Riggs, Joe and JD McCoy all voted for the stadium


Tami & Julie Taylor and Tyra were the loan dissenting voters

 

[TheSunIsRising]

There certainly were questions raised in the Friday Night Lights novel about the relative prioritization of football vs. academics in parts of Texas. I remember that many of the citizens of Odessa were quite pissed at the characterization in the novel, but I don't think they really denied any of what he wrote.

 

[woolybug25]

I am that community and I am willing to pay more in taxes for education. You are also acting like Allen is some horrible school system that only cares about football, they are consistently highly rated in education. That is one of the reasons we moved here. You have been saying that they could have spent less money on the stadium and thus the budget shortfall would have been solved. It wouldn't have. They are separate funds. In this post I see that you acknowledged that isn't the case.

It’s not like they could have solved this year’s shortfall with immediate tax increases. These things take time.

What Cackalacky said.


I don't think you fully read my posts from your response. I have already addressed every point you tried to make.

 

[ndfi78]

I did read your post, I just am not following your logic. You admitted that they couldn't use the stadium bond money for the shortfall then it seems like you come back and suggest that they do that very thing.

 

[ndfi78]

I saw this post on another site and thought it did a better job explaining than I am doing.

When facts are not required, it is much easier to make a point. Unfortunately, the point has little or no value. Allen ISD, just as all school districts in Texas, has an operating budget, funded from property taxes, that pays salaries, provides educational and support services, an allows the district to operate. This funding is set by the state and is the fund that is in danger of being drastically cut by the current session of the state legislature.

The District also has a Capital Budget fund that is used for construction, land purchases, and items such as school busses. This money is generated by the sale of bonds which are voted for by the residents of Allen. Once approved by voters, bonds may only be sold by the district if certain state mandated financial conditions exist.

It is against the law for the district to use operating funds for capital projects or capital funds for operating the district. It would be a violation of Texas law if the funds for the stadium were used to pay teacher salaries or fund educational services.

To say that District officials are being dismissive, to question their decision to spend money on the stadium vs. teacher salaries, or to imply that their hands aren’t tied is just ignoring the facts and state law.

It may be prudent to discuss the wisdom of building the stadium or the fine arts hall or the Career Education Center but it is disingenuous to ignore the facts and assert that the district should be or could be funding teachers rather than construction.

The facts are that Allen residents voted and approved the sale of bonds to fund the football stadium, the district has met state mandated financial requirements to sell the bonds and the bonds are being financed without raising local property taxes. It is also a fact that stadium or not, the financial challenges faced by Allen and all school districts in Texas would not change.