Scholarship/Roster Breakdown

[Domina Nostra]

Updated with Smythe. The consensus is we are aiming for a Cali D-Lineman and a Texas OLB. So the big question remains, where are those two spots coming from?

Looking at the roster, [if they let both Carlo and Fox go, which I doubt] I'd try Spond on the inside in the Spring and see if Councell can hold down the DOG position. If so, I think Smith would be a great back-up (knowing Spond could move back their if Councell was injured). I'd also move Randolph or Hollins if we get him, to the inside.

I'm also hoping move Okwara grows into a DE

So my LB Depth Chart would be:

Mike:
Jarrett Grace Jr. '15
Kendall Moore Sr. '14 (11)
Michael Deeb Fr.

WILL
Danny Spond
Deon Hollins

CAT
Prince Shembo Sr. '13 (12)
Ishaq Williams Jr. '14
Doug Randolph

DOG
Ben Councell
Jaylon Smith
C.J. Prosise

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Updated with Smythe.

The consensus is we are aiming for a Cali D-Lineman and a Texas OLB. So the big question remains, where are those two spots coming from?

Fr + So + Jr = 57

85 - 57 = 28 incoming frosh + 5Ys.

28 - 23 = 5 new verbals or 5Ys.

Z. Martin and Watt are locks to return. General consensus is that at least one of Fox/ Calabrese returns.

5 - 3 5Ys = 2 more spots. No mystery there.

And that's assuming no transfers or medicals. We may very well have room for 3 or 4 when all is said and done.

 

[irishroo]

Updated with Smythe.

The consensus is we are aiming for a Cali D-Lineman and a Texas OLB. So the big question remains, where are those two spots coming from?

If EV comes on and then Hollins wants in after, do you think this staff is willing to not grant Carlo/Fox a 5th year to make room for Hollins? I think if you reverse the order (Hollins first, then EV), it's an absolute yes, but I really don't know in the latter scenario.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If EV comes on and then Hollins wants in after, do you think this staff is willing to not grant Carlo/Fox a 5th year to make room for Hollins? I think if you reverse the order (Hollins first, then EV), it's an absolute yes, but I really don't know in the latter scenario.

The staff reportedly wants 1 CA DL and 1 TX LB. That means they're either currently willing to let one of Calabrese/ Fox walk, or they're counting on a transfer/ medical that isn't yet public knowledge.

 

[irishroo]

The staff reportedly wants 1 CA DL and 1 TX LB. That means they're either willing to let one of Calabrese/ Fox walk, or they're counting on a transfer/ medical that isn't yet public knowledge.

Okay. Carlo expects to be back (not officially been asked back, but he does think he will be). I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.

 

[Domina Nostra]

The staff reportedly wants 1 CA DL and 1 TX LB. That means they're either currently willing to let one of Calabrese/ Fox walk, or they're counting on a transfer/ medical that isn't yet public knowledge.

Are you saying Slaughter is out?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Are you saying Slaughter is out?

Just reading between the lines, but those close to the program seem pretty pessimistic about his odds on appeal.

To reiterate, at least one transfer/ medical is likely, so the staff is probably projecting more wiggle room than we can calculate for at the moment.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Just reading between the lines, but those close to the program seem pretty pessimistic about his odds on appeal.

To reiterate, at least one transfer/ medical is likely, so the staff is probably projecting more wiggle room than we can calculate for at the moment.

Kelly's conference call today seems to confirm that the most likely scenario is a medical for Tate, 5th years for Fox and Carlo, and Slaughter getting denied (since we are aimeing for 2 spots and his is the most likely place to find it).

Folston is also not 100%. So we are looking at 1-3 spots without a transfer.

 

[RDU Irish]

George Atkinson III Jr

That reads funny from a geneological perspective.

In any respect, that NT depth scares me. EV come aboard!

Nice work though, reps.

 

[NDhoosier]

Question for Whiskeyjack or anyone who has coached football I guess. How do you break the roster down by position and how many at each position? This is what I have, I am curious to know how you and others break the roster down for a 3-4 Defense and Spread offense:

QB - 4
RB/Z WR - 8 - I feel like there are too many spots for these two positions, but it gets confusing
WR - 8........../
TE - 4
C - 2
OG - 7
OT - 7

DT - 3
DE - 8
ILB - 8
OLB - 8
Corners - 8
Safeties - 8

Special Teams - 2
(Punter, Kicker, Long-snapper; however, preferred walk-on status may be used for one of them)

 

[Irish YJ]

Whiskey, when you answer NDHoosier, might want to add tthose position target numbers to my favorite spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmLGzmpC86GYdERPcG1UN0FiRVROUkNwOXd3MGszb2c&hl=en_US#gid=0

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Question for Whiskeyjack or anyone who has coached football I guess. How do you break the roster down by position and how many at each position? This is what I have, I am curious to know how you and others break the roster down for a 3-4 Defense and Spread offense:

QB - 4 [We'll have 5 on the roster for 2013 unless someone (Hendrix?) transfers]
RB/Z WR - 8 [I'm showing 9, unless Onwuala starts at X/W WR]
WR - 8
TE - 4 [We'll have 5 - Welch, Niklas, Koyack, Heuerman & Smythe]
C - 2
OG - 7 [It's hard to project where some of these guys will end up; I'm showing 6]
OT - 7 [See above. With Nichols' likely medical, also 6]

DT - 3
DE - 8 [Utupo is listed as a DE, but I wouldn't count him. I only count 6]
ILB - 8 [I'm only showing 5 right now, though 1-2 LBs will definitely move inside. We'll probably end up with 6-7]
OLB - 8 [Okwara is rumored to be moving to DE. Some of these guys will move inside. Prosise may move back to FS. Count on 7-8]
Corners - 8 [Shumate or Kinlaw will move to S. 8 looks right]
Safeties - 8 [See above]

Special Teams - 2 [If Tausch gets a 5Y, we'll be at 3]

Discrepancies are in bold. This is my reference.

Whiskey, when you answer NDHoosier, might want to add tthose position target numbers to my favorite spreadsheet

Are we talking about targets for the 2014 class? That's a very different question.

 

[irishroo]

http://notredame.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1466001

Addresses many of the questions brought up in this thread. Not official, but BK has intimated that both Carlo and Fox will be back next year and will compete with Grace for the 2 ILB spots. Still not sure on Slaughter, but hoping to hear back either way before the conclusion of recruiting. Hegarty, Welch, Wood, and Collinsworth all expected to make full recoveries, but not Nichols. Quote from BK: "Tate Nichols … is not as confident that he’ll be able to return to action. We’re in conversation about that being a medical situation with Tate."

 

[Irish YJ]

Discrepancies are in bold. This is my reference.



Are we talking about targets for the 2014 class? That's a very different question.

Whiskey, I guess I read his post wrong, but my question remains. The question is, how many at each position do you think creates a healthy balance (what's the target number of X position). Also, if you wouldn't mind, please comment on our areas of imbalance (be it too many, or not enough).

Edit - not for a specific year, just in general. Example, on a roster of 85 one should carry xx OL, xx QBs, etc.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskey, I guess I read his post wrong, but my question remains. The question is, how many at each position do you think creates a healthy balance (what's the target number of X position). Also, if you wouldn't mind, please comment on our areas of imbalance (be it too many, or not enough).

Edit - not for a specific year, just in general. Example, on a roster of 85 one should carry xx OL, xx QBs, etc.

Ideal depth is 4 deep at every position. There are 22 positions overall (11 on offense and defense respectively), which comes out to 88. The scholarship limit is 85, so we end up "borrowing" some scholarships from the OL. 15-16 scholarship players is usually plenty for that position group due to cross-training.

The rest is easy to figure out by multiplying the number of players on the field for every other position by 4: 4 QBs, 8 X/W WRs, 8 RB/ Z WRs, 4 TEs, 8 DE, 4 DT, 8 OLB, 8 ILB, 8 S, 8 CB. Things get a little more complicated if you choose to overload at one position. For instance, we frequently utilize multiple TE sets, so we need to carry more than 4 TEs at once (see Smythe's offer). That can cut into depth elsewhere, but depending on how many OL you carry, you usually have 1-2 scholarships left over to play with.

As for positions of need for 2014, DT is far and away the most pressing. We lose both Nix and Schwenke next spring, which leaves only Springmann. And depending on how the incoming LB shuffling goes, we may need to pick up a few ILBs too.

But our roster looks a lot better today than it has in a long time.

 

[Old Man Mike]

The "16" on the Oline comes from the fact that the Oline works so intensely as a unit that the coach [in our case Hiestand] has his work cut out for him training just "ten" or two units once the season begins. Obviously he is going to pay plenty of attention to everybody in Spring ball but it's an analogous situation to Kelly not wanting to have to intensely work with more than two QBs.

OLine substitutions in the season are much more infrequent than anywhere else on offense except QB, and the situation on Defense for the bigs is just the opposite, demanding at least two full units. It has usually been deemed optimal, even, if you notice, in the pros, for the offensive line to go all season long as a little-substituted five-man unit. Coordination is that important.

The reason that you STILL need to pick up "four" per year though is that Olinemen DO get injured [and boy we know about that] so you must have numbers and quality for the bad circumstances. And, when things go well, that "extra" group of five or six Olinemen, allows you to relax and give all your frosh the year to get tougher and smarter. Our deficit in Oline numbers is why someone like Elmer will probably have to play. Biven might have also had he been an EE.

Some coaches cheat a little numbers-wise at WR, but Kelly doesn't like to. Some coaches cheat a little in the DB [especially if their philosophy is to employ starters on kick coverage] --- this is where I believe we've been forced to oversign, somewhat screwing the proper balance. But the staff probably felt that they HAD to do that with Gray, Blanton, and Harrison leaving taking all the minutes with them.

 

[NDhoosier]

Yes, Irish NJ was correct, I was asking in general terms for a 85 man roster. But you answered my question, thanks. I assume this break down does not really include Special Team scholarships such as Punters, Kickers, and Long Snappers?

I just see you post every now and then how we are short at this position and overloaded at this position, I just wondered what an ideal roster would look like.

Looking at our own roster. 2014 better be heavy in the LB department, we are severely short at LB, especially at ILB.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Updated the ILB situation (above).

I still think some changes are coming at LB, because in 2014 the floor drops out at ILB. This is what I think I would do, at this point (cotroversial!). Only the guys in bold are staying beyond 2013. We are thin everywhere!

MIKE
Jarrett Grace Jr. '15
Carlo Calabrese Grad.
Kendall Moore Sr. '14
Dough Randolph

WILL
Dan Fox Grad. ***
Ben Councell Jr. '15
Michael Deeb Fr.

CAT
Prince Shembo Sr. '13 (12)
Romeo Okwara So. '15
Anthony Rabasa Jr. '15
Justin Utupo Sr. '14

DOG
Danny Spond Sr. '13
Jaylon Smith Fr.
C.J. Prosise So. '16 OR Nicky Barratti So. '16
John Turner '16

DE [6]
Stephon Tuitt Jr. '14
Ishaq Williams Jr. '14
Chase Hounsell Jr. '15
Sheldon Day So. '15
Jarron Jones So. '16
Jacob Matuska Fr.
Isaac Rochell Fr.

1) We have to get some minutes for someone who is not graduating next year at ILB- that is pretty much going to be Councell or Randolph.
2) I think Williams would be more comfortable on the D-Line, and if Okwara is athletic enough to play DOG with his size, he'd be an ideal CAT.
3) We are going to have to take some chances at DOG. I'd play Smith there as a freshman because of his athleticism, knowing we could easily move him over to CAT when Shembo graduates. I think we move a couple of the big safties caught in the log jam down. Turner for depth, and Prosise (or possibly Barratti).

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Great post, DN. A few minor points:

• Moore is eligible for a 5Y. With our lack of depth a ILB, he'll probably be back after 2013.
• There have been rumors of Okwara to DE before, but not for Ishaq. I think Okwara is more likely to get moved.
• I wish Spond had saved a year of eligibility. He'd be great at WILB or DOLB, but that flexibility won't mean much since we only have him for one more year.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Great post, DN. A few minor points:

• Moore is eligible for a 5Y. With our lack of depth a ILB, he'll probably be back after 2013.
• There have been rumors of Okwara to DE before, but not for Ishaq. I think Okwara is more likely to get moved.
• I wish Spond had saved a year of eligibility. He'd be great at WILB or DOLB, but that flexibility won't mean much since we only have him for one more year.

I forgot about Moore. I had such high hopes for him, hope he contributes this year.

I like Okwara to DE--and its more likely for sure. He just seems like he'd be an ideal CAT LB to me. Huge, fast, good in coverage, mean. I just hope that all of Okwara's speed is not wasted if he moves down to DE. His upside is phenomenal, he could be a Lynch-type player.

I think going into 2012, the staff assumed that Williams would be the clear next-man in at CAT, and did not know what the heck we were going to do at DOG. Now that Spond and Shembo are settled in, and Smith is coming in, there is a little more flexibility. I think Williams needs something to click. He is as athletic as advertised, but seems hesitant to me. He wears his 255 pretty darn easily, I don't think 285 would be an issue. On other hand, its a little harder to imagine him being mean enough in the trenches.

If it were just about next year, I'd be tempted to move Spond inside as well.

Also, I have no problem with us getting a little shorter at OLB, as long as we are fast and mean (see Jaylon).

 

[Old Man Mike]

Welcome DN to the small percentage of IE posters who genuinely "get" the "three-year-out" need for the head coach to plan roster management. A few comments to add to your and Whiskey's insights:

1). I believe that Springmann is still eligible for 2014. If true, and if we are as successful with the Dline prospects for that freshman class [i.e. next cycle's], then, with or without Vanderdoes, we will have the bodies in the Dline --- Eddie makes us BETTER, but we're OK regardless [especially if Rochell is the real deal].

2). This is important to the linebacking corps as, if the Dline is OK, then certain potential Dline pass-rushers are in the mix to fix the linebacking deficit [Okwara {don't like this too much}, Williams {maybe he'll really get it at CAT}, Rabasa {probably serviceable at either CAT or ILB].

3). So, to 2014: let's think a little happy.
----a]. Williams steps up. Rabasa and Randolph train to back him up at CAT;
----b]. Grace takes charge at MIKE; Deeb becomes a natural MIKE as back-up;
----c]. Smith takes over as AA-capacity at DOG. Staff meditates as to back up;
----d]. A "hole" exists at WILL, but we have one great athlete sitting around underemployed: Ben Councell. Staff gives him a shot at it [actually training him in 2013]. Staff also gives Randolph a full chance here. Best man wins.
----e]. Moore backs up the winner at WILL. The non-winner concentrates more on his "other position" [Councell on DOG; Randolph on CAT]. If Councell "wins", Randolph may actually "win" CAT if Williams does not evolve. Then back-up DOG becomes someone like a converted safety, preferably Baratti or Prosise --- my dataless intuition: Baratti as he reminds me a lot of Danny Spond.

We have one LB prospect verballed for 2014 class already --- doubtless Staff will go very heavy on both Dline and LB. Life is not perfect, but it is not horrible either. Once again, Anzalone hurt.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We have one LB prospect verballed for 2014 class already --- doubtless Staff will go very heavy on both Dline and LB. Life is not perfect, but it is not horrible either. Once again, Anzalone hurt.

Our roster has not been so complete, deep, and talented in a long time. Certainly longer than I can remember.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Welcome DN to the small percentage of IE posters who genuinely "get" the "three-year-out" need for the head coach to plan roster management. A few comments to add to your and Whiskey's insights:

1). I believe that Springmann is still eligible for 2014. If true, and if we are as successful with the Dline prospects for that freshman class [i.e. next cycle's], then, with or without Vanderdoes, we will have the bodies in the Dline --- Eddie makes us BETTER, but we're OK regardless [especially if Rochell is the real deal].

2). This is important to the linebacking corps as, if the Dline is OK, then certain potential Dline pass-rushers are in the mix to fix the linebacking deficit [Okwara {don't like this too much}, Williams {maybe he'll really get it at CAT}, Rabasa {probably serviceable at either CAT or ILB].

3). So, to 2014: let's think a little happy.
----a]. Williams steps up. Rabasa and Randolph train to back him up at CAT;
----b]. Grace takes charge at MIKE; Deeb becomes a natural MIKE as back-up;
----c]. Smith takes over as AA-capacity at DOG. Staff meditates as to back up;
----d]. A "hole" exists at WILL, but we have one great athlete sitting around underemployed: Ben Councell. Staff gives him a shot at it [actually training him in 2013]. Staff also gives Randolph a full chance here. Best man wins.
----e]. Moore backs up the winner at WILL. The non-winner concentrates more on his "other position" [Councell on DOG; Randolph on CAT]. If Councell "wins", Randolph may actually "win" CAT if Williams does not evolve. Then back-up DOG becomes someone like a converted safety, preferably Baratti or Prosise --- my dataless intuition: Baratti as he reminds me a lot of Danny Spond.

We have one LB prospect verballed for 2014 class already --- doubtless Staff will go very heavy on both Dline and LB. Life is not perfect, but it is not horrible either. Once again, Anzalone hurt.

What about Moore starting at Will?

He seems ok in the times I've seen him play and he has the most time in the system. He would only have to beat out a freshman in Doug and a OLB convert in Ben.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Updated for NSD awesomeness.

 

[rtrn2glory]

so my very quick count has us at potentially taking anywhere from 21-23 in 2014.

does anyone else have a more accurate/informed breakdown??

 

[Corry]

Per ESPN

We have offered four players who haven't committed

Josh McNeil TE
Stacy Tomas DE
Taj Williams WR
James Hearns ILB

Is there a chance that any of them take the last spot?

College Football Recruiting Schools - ESPN

 

[NOLAIrish]

Per ESPN

We have offered four players who haven't committed

Josh McNeil TE
Stacy Tomas DE
Taj Williams WR
James Hearns ILB

Is there a chance that any of them take the last spot?

College Football Recruiting Schools - ESPN

McNeil is headed to JUCO. Williams and Hearns might be headed the same way, depending on grades. Thomas would be an interesting prospect. Everything I've read on him says he's looking to stay in the Southeast, though.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Per ESPN

We have offered four players who haven't committed

Josh McNeil TE
Stacy Tomas DE
Taj Williams WR
James Hearns ILB

Is there a chance that any of them take the last spot?

College Football Recruiting Schools - ESPN

I've hear not a peep about any of them. I would guess, no.

 

[sparkyND]

Per ESPN

We have offered four players who haven't committed

Josh McNeil TE
Stacy Tomas DE
Taj Williams WR
James Hearns ILB

Is there a chance that any of them take the last spot?

College Football Recruiting Schools - ESPN

I would be extremely excited with Stacy Thomas in addition to what we accomplished yesterday. But, is there mutual interest at this stage? We do have a spot open so it is still hypothetically possible.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

so my very quick count has us at potentially taking anywhere from 21-23 in 2014.

does anyone else have a more accurate/informed breakdown??

The magic number (2014 recruits + 5Ys) is currently 22. I'm guessing we'll bring back 3 of the eligible seniors, which leaves 19 spots for 2014 recruits. Though medicals (Nichols) and transfers (?) are likely to free up at least a couple more scholarships.

Right now, I expect the 2014 class to have room for 21-22.

Here's an updated roster.