Rioting in St Louis

[adsnorri]

They didn't jump on him for selling loose cigarettes. Have you watched the video? They started out calmly SPEAKING to him. The police didn't get physical until the guy started freaking out all on his own.
He did not freak out imo. He was raising his voice a little because they were talking about arresting him. He was saying that he did nothing wrong and that the particular cop has harassed him in the past and is doing so now. He was asking what he did wrong at one point of the video. All the while, they are attempting to arrest him....not write him a ticket. Arresting someone for selling loose cigarettes is asinine. Killing someone for raising his voice with no physical aggression is beyond asinine. Essentially, this could have been me or you that was wrongfully accused of something. Asking what we did wrong and taken down from behind and choked out. I know I have raised my voice once with a cop in my younger years...because he was tazing a kid that was already handcuffed and laying face down. You know his response...Do you want me to taze you? Haha

That's what they were trying to do and he flipped out that he was being harassed.
They were not trying to write a ticket, you don't need 6-7 cops to do that. See above.

1. With this guy's heart condition, a Taser probably would have killed him too. Speculation. Choking someone's neck to restrict airflow may be a little more harming than an electric shock that disables their body from moving but not breathing....

2. Tasers don't always work, especially with a large man. I understand this. However, the chances of them working far outweigh the chances of them not working.

 

[Wild Bill]

Cute to dismiss the outrahe as fake. Do you also whine about millenials not caring or beino lazy and entitled?

No, I don't whine about it. Their entitlement and laziness makes it much easier for me to get ahead.

 

[adsnorri]

No, I don't whine about it. Their entitlement and laziness makes it much easier for me to get ahead.

Haha! This is a great post! :swordfigh

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

They didn't jump on him for selling loose cigarettes. Have you watched the video? They started out calmly SPEAKING to him. The police didn't get physical until the guy started freaking out all on his own.


That's what they were trying to do and he flipped out that he was being harassed.


1. With this guy's heart condition, a Taser probably would have killed him too.

2. Tasers don't always work, especially with a large man.

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1. Is it documented that they were going to just give him a ticket and go on there merry way? Serious question, not being a dick at all.

2. I worked in a large County Jail from 2002-2005. Tasers were pretty new, in jails anyway. I saw all the good the bad and the ugly. It was a party.

 

[tussin]

I can appreciate that. You would think that a cop would go to great lengths to not shoot a 12yo though.

Interestingly the cops in both situations had some prior issues that were red flags.

I'm more surprised when cops (local, not Staties) don't have red flags.

IMO, a lot of the current problems with police stem from how easy it is to become a local cop. Most of the local cops I know are the idiots from high school that didn't know what to do with their life so they just decided to become a cop and carry a gun. You should need a 4-year college degree to become a cop. This is what happens when you give a badge and a gun to morons that spent their high-school years smoking weed and finding the next party.

Note: I haven't researched every case mentioned in this thread to know if the offending officer was local or state.

 

[wizards8507]

Do you also whine about millenials not caring or beino lazy and entitled?

I'm a millennial. Most of my peers are lazy and entitled.

 

[IrishinSyria]

After a few days of reflection, this is my take on the Garner incident:

1: No criminal charge is probably right. If the same exact scenario had played out with four civilians instead of police, I would feel differently.

2: It seems to me that the police and EMTs did their best to save Garner's life. That being said, maybe their best wasn't good enough. Administrative solutions (like suspension without pay) seem appropriate if the city's experts determine that that was the case.

3: I think Garner's estate has a very strong civil suit. This is a classic egg-shell skull rule case.

The police officers who ignored Cobige's pleas for help did not want her to die, but they are responsible for that death nonetheless if the untreated pain caused it. This is an application of the “eggshell skull” rule: A tortfeasor takes his victim as he finds him, and if a special vulnerability (a thin skull, or here a ventricular hypertrophy) leads to an unusually large loss, the wrongdoer is fully liable. See Colonial Inn Motor Lodge ex rel. Cincinnati Insurance Co. v. Gay, 288 Ill.App.3d 32, 45, 223 Ill.Dec. 674, 680 N.E.2d 407, 416 (1997); Prosser & Keeton on Torts § 43 (5th ed.1984).

 

[adsnorri]

After a few days of reflection, this is my take on the Garner incident:

1: No criminal charge is probably right. If the same exact scenario had played out with four civilians instead of police, I would feel differently.

2: It seems to me that the police and EMTs did their best to save Garner's life. That being said, maybe their best wasn't good enough. Administrative solutions (like suspension without pay) seem appropriate if the city's experts determine that that was the case.

3: I think Garner's estate has a very strong civil suit. This is a classic egg-shell skull rule case.

I assume you saw the video. To begin with, when someone says repeatedly that they can not breath and are already subdued....You stop choking and use a better form of restraint.

After the guy is out cold and having seizures, it took the cops a LONG time to begin trying to save his life. He was simply laying there while they were watching. That is not doing your best to save someone's life, imo.

 

[adsnorri]

I'm a millennial. Most of my peers are lazy and entitled.

This explains it all..... JK:banghead2

I'm a millennial too and many of my peers are the same.

 

[wizards8507]

I assume you saw the video. To begin with, when someone says repeatedly that they can not breath and are already subdued....You stop choking and use a better form of restraint.

A couple of things.

1. He was yelling that he couldn't breathe AFTER the "choke hold" was over. His inability to breathe was because he was in cardiac arrest, not because of the pressure on his neck.

2. Have you ever watched any of Cops, Alaska State Troopers, Campus PD, The First 48, or Police Women? Suspects being taken down by the police yell "I can't breathe" or "you're killing me" or "you're breaking my arm" or "I can't feel my legs" pretty much every single time.

3. Nobody has answered this one: what could the police have done to bring this guy down that WOULDN'T have resulted in his death?

 

[adsnorri]

A couple of things.

1. He was yelling that he couldn't breathe AFTER the "choke hold" was over. His inability to breathe was because he was in cardiac arrest, not because of the pressure on his neck.
Wrong: He yelled I can't breathe about five seconds into the choke when he hit the ground and the guy was on top of him in a great position of strength.

Cardiac Arrest because of the chokehold. Lax had a great post on this about the cause and effect of the death. Simply put...He died because he was choked, cardiac arrest or not.

2. Have you ever watched any of Cops, Alaska State Troopers, Campus PD, The First 48, or Police Women? Suspects being taken down by the police yell "I can't breathe" or "you're killing me" or "you're breaking my arm" or "I can't feel my legs" pretty much every single time.

I agree. They do yell this often. However in this case, the cop could have easily stopped choking him when he was on the ground and had 5-7 officers on top of him...before he yelled I can't breathe another ten times. They had him subdued.

3. Nobody has answered this one: what could the police have done to bring this guy down that WOULDN'T have resulted in his death?

I think the argument is that they did not need to bring this guy down. They just needed to write him a ticket for his alleged crime. Taking a guy to jail for selling loose cigarettes seems like a stretch to me. Dont you agree?

If they wanted to take this guy down with the least amount of trouble, a logical person would think that tazing him would be the first idea. Right? As you said it doesn't work on all people but why would you not try it to see first? Would alleviate risk to the cops as well. Problem is they did not feel threatened and instead knew they had the upperhand by a landside so they used it and escalated the situation by taking him down aggressively.

P.S. I am horrible at quoting. lol

 

[IrishinSyria]

I assume you saw the video. To begin with, when someone says repeatedly that they can not breath and are already subdued....You stop choking and use a better form of restraint.

After the guy is out cold and having seizures, it took the cops a LONG time to begin trying to save his life. He was simply laying there while they were watching. That is not doing your best to save someone's life, imo.

This whole video is worth a watch. They have him on his side (by the book), they're trying to keep his airway open, and they're monitoring his pulse and breath.

At 6:35 one of the bystanders asks why nobody gave him CPR. One of the officers answers that he's still breathing. Apparently he died in the ambulance en route to the hospital.

First responders, at least in my experience, are trained to deal with traumatic external injuries. I really don't know what more they could have done (maybe inserted a nasopharyngeal airway?)

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[Irish#1]

Charles Barkley Has Nothing To Say To America

Not surprised at the kind of people who praise an uneducated moron like Barkley for his political beliefs.

Not surprised you don't agree. He pointed out several basic facts that you and the author of the article don't like, so you simply dismiss it.

It's pretty much impossible to talk when your being choked, plus he resisted. He's been arrested 31 previous times, yet continues to disobey the law. If he doesn't break the law or doesn't resist, he'd still be alive today.

I really believe you have good intentions, but I feel sorry that you let your blinders keep you from looking at things objectively.

 

[wizards8507]

I think the argument is that they did not need to bring this guy down. They just needed to write him a ticket for his alleged crime. Taking a guy to jail for selling loose cigarettes seems like a stretch to me. Dont you agree?

I sure do, but there's some nuance here so I want to be careful how I say this.

First, the prosecution of "loosie" sales in New York City is a politically-driven initiative pushed down to the NYPD by former mayor Michael Bloomberg and current mayor Bill de Blasio. New York State charges $4.35 in taxes for a pack of cigarettes, plus an additional $1.60 imposed by the city (it used to be $0.08 until Bloomberg raised it in 2002). This has driven the retail price of cigarettes in New York over $13 per pack, opening the doors for the mafia, gangs, and other criminals to smuggle cartons in from low tax jurisdictions and make a killing selling "loosies" below retail. Loosies have made a significant dent in the city and state tax revenues, so De Blasio has ordered the NYPD to crack down on their sales. Thus, this was essentially an overbearing and violent tax-collecting effort more than enforcement of petty misdemeanor laws.

This has been a documented issue for years:

City smokers turn to cigarette black market | City Beats | The five boroughs and beyond

That said, a business owner originally reported Garner because he (the business owner) felt that his retail sales of cigarettes were being harmed by Garner's loosie sales. With a citizen complaint, the police had no choice but to respond and address the issue. They weren't out to get Garner because of any personal vendetta against him, but because a complaint had been filed by a citizen.

Finally, I've said this before and I'll repeat it: Garner would not have been arrested nor taken down by the police if he had complied with their requests in a calm and reasonable manner instead of acting outraged that he was being "harassed."

So yes, I think two things were unreasonable in this case, but neither one is the fault of the NYPD. First, it is ridiculous that New York imposes a near-100% tax on the sales of cigarettes and then issues marching orders to the NYPD to make sure they collect. This is the fault of politicians, not the officers. Second, it would normally be unreasonable to tackle and cuff a man for the sale of untaxed cigarettes, but that particular set of circumstances was brought on by Garner's reaction to the initial, peaceable contact.

 

[Irish#1]

Journey For Justice Faces Racist Opposition

As much as you like to point out that the violent protesters are a relatively small group and/or percentage of the black population, I would say the same thing here. This white group is a relatively small group and/or percentage of the white population. Since you're so quick to dismiss the violent protesters you have to dismiss the white protesters if you really want people to believe you're objective.

 

[adsnorri]

This whole video is worth a watch. They have him on his side (by the book), they're trying to keep his airway open, and they're monitoring his pulse and breath.

At 6:35 one of the bystanders asks why nobody gave him CPR. One of the officers answers that he's still breathing. Apparently he died in the ambulance en route to the hospital.

First responders, at least in my experience, are trained to deal with traumatic external injuries. I really don't know what more they could have done (maybe inserted a nasopharyngeal airway?)

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OH MY GOD! I did not see this video. A few points.
-No urgency by anyone to save this man's life. Even when EMS gets there.
-HE IS STILL IN HANDCUFFS! He isn't a felon that just raped someone. This guy is dying and having respiratory problems but you have him lying down with his hands still cuffed behind his back. Wow.
- I understand as far as the police not doing much more in terms of opening his airways, kind of. But for EMS to get there and nobody including the police rush to have him put on the stretcher is horrible.
- I would not feel comfortable with these guys trying to save my or my family's life. That is for sure.

 

[Irish#1]

It's so people can't ignore the problems anymore. It's to disrupt the regular lives of everyone like the lives of Eric Garner's 6 children were disrupted when cops waited 7 minutes to try to resuscitate him. Some people will support the cause and some won't. These huge protests are showing how many people are upset.

Here's the problem with that. It's only going to piss people off for the next hour or so until they get where they need to be. If they truly want people to know they are serious, they need to block the road 24X7 for two to three weeks.

 

[adsnorri]

I sure do, but there's some nuance here so I want to be careful how I say this.

First, the prosecution of "loosie" sales in New York City is a politically-driven initiative pushed down to the NYPD by former mayor Michael Bloomberg and current mayor Bill de Blasio. New York State charges $4.35 in taxes for a pack of cigarettes, plus an additional $1.60 imposed by the city (it used to be $0.08 until Bloomberg raised it in 2002). This has driven the retail price of cigarettes in New York over $13 per pack, opening the doors for the mafia, gangs, and other criminals to smuggle cartons in from low tax jurisdictions and make a killing selling "loosies" below retail. Loosies have made a significant dent in the city and state tax revenues, so De Blasio has ordered the NYPD to crack down on their sales. Thus, this was essentially an overbearing and violent tax-collecting effort more than enforcement of petty misdemeanor laws.

This has been a documented issue for years:

City smokers turn to cigarette black market | City Beats | The five boroughs and beyond

That said, a business owner originally reported Garner because he (the business owner) felt that his retail sales of cigarettes were being harmed by Garner's loosie sales. With a citizen complaint, the police had no choice but to respond and address the issue. They weren't out to get Garner because of any personal vendetta against him, but because a complaint had been filed by a citizen.

Finally, I've said this before and I'll repeat it: Garner would not have been arrested nor taken down by the police if he had complied with their requests in a calm and reasonable manner instead of acting outraged that he was being "harassed."

So yes, I think two things were unreasonable in this case, but neither one is the fault of the NYPD. First, it is ridiculous that New York imposes a near-100% tax on the sales of cigarettes and then issues marching orders to the NYPD to make sure they collect. This is the fault of politicians, not the officers. Second, it would normally be unreasonable to tackle and cuff a man for the sale of untaxed cigarettes, but that particular set of circumstances was brought on by Garner's reaction to the initial, peaceable contact.

Great Post.

If this happened, he wouldn't have died.

NYPD code says it is not ok to choke a person in order to subdue them. The law isn't following their own guidelines when it comes to prosecuting someone that killed a person using a move that is forbidden by their own handbook.

Further, I think a reasonable cop could have talked Garner off the ledge a little bit before escalating the situation by physically attacking an irritated person.

This is an example of what I have heard many times around my neck of the woods. The cops escalate the situation 90% of the time. Usually it is a testosterone driven move, trying to be the tougher guy instead of being the smarter/bigger man by talking. Just from local experience.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Great Post.

If this happened, he wouldn't have died.

NYPD code says it is not ok to choke a person in order to subdue them. The law isn't following their own guidelines when it comes to prosecuting someone that killed a person using a move that is forbidden by their own handbook.

Further, I think a reasonable cop could have talked Garner off the ledge a little bit before escalating the situation by physically attacking an irritated person.

This is an example of what I have heard many times around my neck of the woods. The cops escalate the situation 90% of the time. Usually it is a testosterone driven move, trying to be the tougher guy instead of being the smarter/bigger man by talking. Just from local experience.

Right. And that will be powerful evidence in the civil case, and it could very well lead to internal action against the officer.

HOWEVER, SOP =/ The Law. A violation of the PD's procedure does not prove criminal intent.

 

[wizards8507]

Right. And that will be powerful evidence in the civil case, and it could very well lead to internal action against the officer.

Hasn't he lost his badge?

 

[IrishinSyria]

Hasn't he lost his badge?

I think he had to turn in his badge and his gun and is currently on desk duty. I think his conduct is still under review, which could lead to further consequence.

 

[goldandblue]

I thought this was interesting. Is he right?

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[adsnorri]

Enjoy the conversations boys.

Have to go for a while.

Hopefully I make it back safely! This shit has increased tension drastically between races, not just cops and black people.

Be careful to not escalate situations more than they need to be this winter season. Things spiral fastly and it is not a great time of the year to be losing anyone you love(Not that there is a good time).

Have a good one.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I drive about 3 hours a day 5 days a week. After a 12 to 14 hour work day, I feel sorry for the idiot protester(s) who think they'll block my route home. What was that, a speed bump?

I bet you wouldn't unless you want to go to jail for a hit and run.

 

[BobD]

I bet you wouldn't unless you want to go to jail for a hit and run.

How many highways do you know of that give pedestrians the right of way? I'm not the type of person to purposefully hit someone, but if you're on the highway walking around good luck trying to press charges. A bunch of people on the freeway would even be easier to get away with..."officer, I felt threatened, it was self defense, they shouted obscenities and threw something at my car so I ran them over"

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

How many highways do you know of that give pedestrians the right of way? I'm not the type of person to purposefully hit someone, but if you're on the highway walking around good luck trying to press charges. A bunch of people on the freeway would even be easier to get away with..."officer, I felt threatened, it was self defense, they shouted obscenities and threw something at my car so I ran them over"

You're so tough. They've arrested the people who have hit the protesters so you'd get arrested too. This concern for human life is consistent for what you've shown over this whole thread.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Also the throwing thing at cars hasn't happened with these protests. Sorry to ruin your killing fantasy.

 

[GowerND11]

You're so tough. They've arrested the people who have hit the protesters so you'd get arrested too. This concern for human life is consistent for what you've shown over this whole thread.

But it's ok for these protestors to throw their concern for life out the window? Why protest on a FREAKING highway?! Protest on the steps of city hall or something.

 

[BobD]

You're so tough. They've arrested the people who have hit the protesters so you'd get arrested too. This concern for human life is consistent for what you've shown over this whole thread.

You're right, I am tough. Huge difference between being arrested and having charges filed against you and once charges are filed, it wouldn't take a great attorney to get someone off the hook for hitting someone on a highway. Senseless conversation though as I've already mentioned I'm not the type to just run someone over. I might scare the shit out of them though When I was young I use to drive my pickup up on the sidewalk and gun it straight at drug dealers hanging out. It was fkn hilarious, they'd run like cockroaches and the look on their faces was priceless.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

But it's ok for these protestors to throw their concern for life out the window? Why protest on a FREAKING highway?! Protest on the steps of city hall or something.

I've answered this probably a dozen times. No justice no peace.