Rioting in St Louis

[autry_denson]

I've expressed my sympathy in this thread numerous times. Much to your shock I'm sure, I have friends who are black, hispanic, etc. and they all have different experiences. I went to high school in a diverse city, went to college in a large city, lived in a large city, etc. I didn't spend my whole life in Greenwich, CT with mansions and country clubs.

My point is as an individual just control what you can control...stay in school, get an education, apply your skills, work your ass off, don't commit crime, don't have kids out of wedlock, be responsible, and chances are you'll live a decent life.

Or you can go through life crying "woe is me" and blame the system. The choice IS yours.

again, there's a third choice: work to change the system.

that's a choice all of us have

 

[autry_denson]

If you go back and read what I said; I didn't say it was a black man's choice, to effect change. What I said was that is a black man's choice, what character he wants to portray to the rest of the world. Like it or not, fair or not; the outside world's perception of any specific ethnic, socio-economic, or lifestyle group figures largely into their willingness to take up the cause. If you just scream racism all of the time, and find racism under every single rock, the rest of the world will tune you out and no change will ever happen.

change doesn't happen much, but when it occurs it happens when people recognize systemic injustice and work to alter it, making lots of people angry and uncomfortable in the process

 

[kmoose]

change doesn't happen much, but when it occurs it happens when people recognize systemic injustice and work to alter it, making lots of people angry and uncomfortable in the process

Martin Luther King, Jr. facilitated A LOT of change without ever burning down a single building, and without ever looting a single business.

 

[autry_denson]

Martin Luther King, Jr. facilitated A LOT of change without ever burning down a single building, and without ever looting a single business.

i don't like looters either. how about we focus on the 99% of protesters who aren't looting? b/c I'll put those 1% who are looting against the 1% of Wilson counterprotesters who are representing the klan anytime in a battle for who has the worst people at the extreme ends of the distribution.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

White-on-white murder in America is out of control - Vox

I guess no one cares about whites being killed. Only blacks. Racism.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

again, there's a third choice: work to change the system.

that's a choice all of us have

What does that mean?

 

[kmoose]

White-on-white murder in America is out of control - Vox

Completely immaterial and straw man. The figures for black on black murder are a direct refutation of the assertion that there is some systemic epidemic of whites killing blacks and getting away with it.

No one is making any contention that there is a black on white murder issue, so those statistics aren't pertinent to the topic.

 

[autry_denson]

What does that mean?

it means that we play a role in deciding when reforms are needed. it's easy to point to blacks and say they are responsible for change, it's harder to consider the role that we can play in confronting inequality. it's not whining to recognize when there are institutional mechanisms leading to inequality and then to work to change them.

 

[autry_denson]

Thugs just started another cop car on fire. Disgusting behavior from these animals.

this person shouldn't be on the site anymore

 

[woolybug25]

we've been working on it. we've been incredibly, shockingly successful. violence has dropped the most in the places that were most violent in the 1990s. Yes, there's still work to do and black activists and nonprofits have played leading roles in confronting violence within the black community. So people have been working hard on this, and they've had stunning success. It's time to come up w a different rationalization, this one doesn't work anymore.

I think you may be looking at spun data points there, Autry. The reason that there was a short (read: not drastic) decline in the early 90's is because there was one of the largest spikes in history during the late eighties and early 90's. Since that fall, black on black murder rates have remained constant and/or rising. They are also near all time highs.

- For young black males, their proportion of the population has remained at about 1%. After 1993, their proportion of homicide victims declined slightly before stablizing in recent years.

-Their proportion of homicide offenders increased rapidly from the mid 1980's to the early
1990's and then declined slightly remaining at over one-quarter of all offenders.

- Blacks are disproportionately represented as both homicide victims and offenders. The
victimization rates for blacks were 6 times higher than those for whites. The offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher the rates for whites.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htius.pdf

These aren't assumptions or rascist spins, they are the data presented from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Maybe some of these guys like Sharpton, who have became filthy rich off of the backs of their own community, should spend more time on fixing this problem instead of focusing on 1% of the perceived crimes (ie black death rate from police) against them. Maybe instead of instigating violence, try to get his followers to stop burning down their own businesses and killing their own people.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

it means that we play a role in deciding when reforms are needed. it's easy to point to blacks and say they are responsible for change, it's harder to consider the role that we can play in confronting inequality. it's not whining to recognize when there are institutional mechanisms leading to inequality and then to work to change them.

What reforms? What institutional mechanisms? You're very broad in your "solutions" and you sound like a 19 year old in a college sociology class.

 

[GoIrish41]

I guess no one cares about whites being killed. Only blacks. Racism.

Maybe its the fact that people throw around stats on black on black crime but would never think to observe that white on white crime is almost exactly the same. It is incredibly hypocritical to pull out the statistic every time a black person is involed in a crime, but NEVER pointing it out when a white person commits the same crime. ... Racism.

 

[woolybug25]

i don't like looters either. how about we focus on the 99% of protesters who aren't looting? b/c I'll put those 1% who are looting against the 1% of Wilson counterprotesters who are representing the klan anytime in a battle for who has the worst people at the extreme ends of the distribution.

This is simply a bull$hit number. Show me a statistic that 99% of the protesters aren't looting in Ferguson.

 

[GoIrish41]

this person shouldn't be on the site anymore

Agreed

 

[irishff1014]

this person shouldn't be on the site anymore

You and your 3 buddies shouldn't be on this site. Almost every comment is about race.

 

[woolybug25]

Maybe its the fact that people throw around stats on black on black crime but would never think to observe that white on white crime is almost exactly the same. It is incredibly hypocritical to pull out the statistic every time a black person is involed in a crime, but NEVER pointing it out when a white person commits the same crime. ... Racism.

White people aren't calling for change and accusing blacks of systematically trying to kill them. White people aren't burning down buildings in any town because a white man was shot by a black cop (which believe it or not, happens). The reason that white on white crime isn't an issue here is because white people aren't trying to accuse other races of oppression. If white people were doing that, then I think other races should tell them to work on themselves first.

A completely irrelevant point.

 

[kmoose]

Maybe its the fact that people throw around stats on black on black crime but would never think to observe that white on white crime is almost exactly the same. It is incredibly hypocritical to pull out the statistic every time a black person is involed in a crime, but NEVER pointing it out when a white person commits the same crime. ... Racism.

Oh for the love of all that is Holy.........

People are presenting black on black murder rates because others are accusing whites of having some agenda to kill blacks. If we start accusing blacks of trying to systemically kill off white people, then white on white crime statistics would absolutely be relevant. But no one is, so they aren't.

 

[irishff1014]

Maybe its the fact that people throw around stats on black on black crime but would never think to observe that white on white crime is almost exactly the same. It is incredibly hypocritical to pull out the statistic every time a black person is involed in a crime, but NEVER pointing it out when a white person commits the same crime. ... Racism.

The media is the one that drums it up. The black man was killed by a white man. I have said for a long time that the media is this countries own worst enemy.

 

[GoIrish41]

Completely immaterial and straw man. The figures for black on black murder are a direct refutation of the assertion that there is some systemic epidemic of whites killing blacks and getting away with it.

No one is making any contention that there is a black on white murder issue, so those statistics aren't pertinent to the topic.

No, but we are quick to pull out the "black on black" statistics, completely ignoring that they are almost the same as the "white on white" statistics. I'm not the person who introduced the statistical end around to the conversation. I was just trying to point out how hypocritcal those statistics are.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

White people aren't calling for change and accusing blacks of systematically trying to kill them. White people aren't burning down buildings in any town because a white man was shot by a black cop (which believe it or not, happens). The reason that white on white crime isn't an issue here is because white people aren't trying to accuse other races of oppression. If white people were doing that, then I think other races should tell them to work on themselves first.

A completely irrelevant point.

Thank you

 

[autry_denson]

I think you may be looking at spun data points there, Autry. The reason that there was a short (read: not drastic) decline in the early 90's is because there was one of the largest spikes in history during the late eighties and early 90's. Since that fall, black on black murder rates have remained constant and/or rising. They are also near all time highs.



http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htius.pdf

These aren't assumptions or rascist spins, they are the data presented from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Maybe some of these guys like Sharpton, who have became filthy rich off of the backs of their own community, should spend more time on fixing this problem instead of focusing on 1% of the perceived crimes (ie black death rate from police) against them. Maybe instead of instigating violence, try to get his followers to stop burning down their own businesses and killing their own people.

did you really just quote a report published in 2006 to tell me how my data on trends are wrong? just after your report was published, 8 or 9 years ago, crime started dropping again very quickly. this has been the longest decline of violent crime in the nation's modern history. the national stats obscure the more refined trends b/c crime has been rising in many places like the Dakotas and other places that haven't traditionally had a problem with violence. and the official statistics show LESS of a decline than the victimization stats. so, update your numbers

 

[Ndaccountant]

The media is the one that drums it up. The black man was killed by a white man. I have said for a long time that the media is this countries own worst enemy.

Disagree.

The enemy of the people is apathy of the mind. The media has no control if people think for themselves.

 

[GoIrish41]

White people aren't calling for change and accusing blacks of systematically trying to kill them. White people aren't burning down buildings in any town because a white man was shot by a black cop (which believe it or not, happens). The reason that white on white crime isn't an issue here is because white people aren't trying to accuse other races of oppression. If white people were doing that, then I think other races should tell them to work on themselves first.

A completely irrelevant point.

C'mon wooly. It is absurd that "black on black" crime is brought up as if it is some sort of astronomically high number, ingoring that "white on white" crime is almost identical. Oppressors don't usually accuse the oppressed of oppression.

 

[woolybug25]

No, but we are quick to pull out the "black on black" statistics, completely ignoring that they are almost the same as the "white on white" statistics. I'm not the person who introduced the statistical end around to the conversation. I was just trying to point out how hypocritcal those statistics are.

No one is ignoring them, they aren't relevant! For Christ's sakes, man. White people aren't the ones marching for change and accusing black people of oppression. It isn't hypocritical because that would assume that the situations are similar, which they absolutely are not.

 

[autry_denson]

This is simply a bull$hit number. Show me a statistic that 99% of the protesters aren't looting in Ferguson.

not sure a representative survey has been conducted. let me make the point again: most protesters in Ferguson, and in the rest of the country, are not looting - a small percentage are, and I don't defend them.

most Wilson supporters aren't members of the klan - a small percentage of them are, and I imagine you wouldn't defend them.

let's focus on the people who are protesting in order to demand change.

 

[woolybug25]

did you really just quote a report published in 2006 to tell me how my data on trends are wrong? just after your report was published, 8 or 9 years ago, crime started dropping again very quickly. this has been the longest decline of violent crime in the nation's modern history. the national stats obscure the more refined trends b/c crime has been rising in many places like the Dakotas and other places that haven't traditionally had a problem with violence. and the official statistics show LESS of a decline than the victimization stats. so, update your numbers

You were the one that brought up the fact that they were falling since the 90's, which this data clearly shows differently.

Since you are so sure about this, why don't you pony up some references? I see all of your rhetoric, but haven't seen one single link to a reference. Everything I read says the opposite of what you are saying, so put up or shut up.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Black on Black, White on White, Japanese on Japanese, Albino on Albino. These stats are meaningless when looked in isolation. If the Albino on Albino murder rate was 100% should I be shocked? What if the Albino homicide rate overall was .001 per 100,000. Obviously the Albino on Albino rate is meaningless when you have such a low homicide rate.

Yes white on white rates may approach the black on black rates, but when the homicide rate of blacks is more than 6 times the white rate, the importance of black on black rates is magnified.

Stats are important, but everything has to be taken in context.

Of course, I will probably be accused of racism by this very post. My apologies to any Blacks, Whites, Japanese or Albinos that I may have offended.

 

[autry_denson]

You were the one that brought up the fact that they were falling since the 90's, which this data clearly shows differently.

Since you are so sure about this, why don't you pony up some references? I see all of your rhetoric, but haven't seen one single link to a reference. Everything I read says the opposite of what you are saying, so put up or shut up.

love that you're pushing on this after pulling out a report written in 2006 to argue that the crime drop had ended. i'll tell you what, you can go look at the data directly: Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Data Analysis Tools - NCVS Victimization Analysis Tool (NVAT)

 

[pkt77242]

“I’m ashamed for my justice system that is so good at protecting celebrities and authority figures and so pathetically bad at protecting the ordinary person, especially when it’s an African-American person assaulted by a White person, especially a police officer. There’s no question about it. What we saw from Bob McCulloch tonight was a defense attorney presentation dressed up as a prosecutor doing the presentation. He talked about conflicting evidence–there’s conflicting evidence in every case. We wouldn’t be the land of mass incarceration if every case was treated the way this case was treated. Conflicted evidence means you can’t even charge a man?! That was just so outrageous and disturbing to me.

There’s no question that Darren Wilson got special treatment. I wish one of the reporters would have asked Bob McCulloch about that. Why don’t all of the other defendants in St. Louis get the treatment that Darren Wilson got? Which is, a prosecutor who doesn’t want to file charges himself, a prosecutor who has close ties to where the defendant works, a prosecutor who puts on all the evidence, meaning all of the defense evidence and then doesn’t request any particular charges to be filed. This prosecutor bent over backwards to ensure that there would not be charges filed.

Many of us, myself included have said all along that we would be absolutely shocked if there was an indictment because he rigged the system to get the result he wanted. He got that result and he never explained in that press conference why officer Wilson feared for his life–the most important fact in this case. Officer Wilson shot Mike Brown twice in the car–that means that a twice shot, bleeding Mike Brown is running away, officer Wilson knows he is not armed, even if he came towards him again, why would he be threatened for his life? Why would he have to shoot him in the head and kill him in that moment? Unfortunately, Bob McCulloch never answered that question.”

Here is a comment from Lisa Bloom (MSNBC Legal Analyst and Yale Law grad.)

Ferguson Coverage: MSNBC | Hot 107.9

There has been a growing number of lawyers who thought that the prosecutor took it easy on Wilson and who believes that the prosecutor didn't do his job to his fullest abilities/didn't want an indictment.

 

[kmoose]

Here is a comment from Lisa Bloom (MSNBC Legal Analyst and Yale Law grad.)

Ferguson Coverage: MSNBC | Hot 107.9

There has been a growing number of lawyers who thought that the prosecutor took it easy on Wilson and who believes that the prosecutor didn't do his job to his fullest abilities/didn't want an indictment.

There's also a growing number of people who believe in aliens, Santa Claus, and that Pete Carroll never cheated at USC.