Politics

[GoIrish41]

That's funny.

 

[Wild Bill]

Speaking to the intersection of law, politics, and ND, I was at the Seventh Circuit today during oral arguments. The first case up today was Notre Dame's appeal on the issue of whether the government's contraception-coverage requirement forces ND to violate its religious beliefs.

It did not go well for ND. All 3 judges expressed significant skepticism with the arguments of ND's lawyer. ND's lawyer was unable to convince the panel that ND's forced involvement was anything more than trivial.

It will be interesting to read the opinion after seeing the oral argument in person.

Were posner and easterbrook on the panel?

 

[magogian]

Were posner and easterbrook on the panel?

Posner, Flaum, and Hamilton.

It was my first time seeing Posner in action. He is hilarious when he attacks someone. But you do feel bad for the victim. Posner is just brutal at times.

 

[connor_in]

 

[GoIrish41]

If the top one is correct, conservatives should push to raise the minimum wage and demonstrate their respect for the working poor.

 

[DSully1995]

If the top one is correct, conservatives should push to raise the minimum wage and demonstrate their respect for the working poor.

You confuse intentions and results. Thats why your not a conservative.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

If the top one is correct, conservatives should push to raise the minimum wage and demonstrate their respect for the working poor.

So much wrong with this statement.


Raise the minimum wage and students are the biggest losers. I probably wouldn't have gotten the offer I did out of college without all my work experience throughout high school and college. It ended up being directly related to the field I am currently in.

Think you are worth more than minimum wage? Prove it. I got small raises with every new position I took.

 

[GoIrish41]

You confuse intentions and results. Thats why your not a conservative.

I might make the argument that conservatives confuse lip service with actions when it comes to helping the poor.

 

[DSully1995]

I might make the argument that conservatives confuse lip service with actions when it comes to helping the poor.

Raise the minimum wage to 50$ if your not paying the poor lip service. Thats absurd, but its absurd for the same reason that I dont like the minimum wage, if you raise the price of something less is demanded.


The poor need jobs, not handouts. People get payed from skills, not bailout plans.

 

[GoIrish41]

Raise the minimum wage to 50$ if your not paying the poor lip service. Thats absurd, but its absurd for the same reason that I dont like the minimum wage, if you raise the price of something less is demanded.


The poor need jobs, not handouts. People get payed from skills, not bailout plans.

this has been argued over and over again in this thread. raise the minimum wage and people have more money in their pockets to spend on products and services, which would create a higher demand for employees to keep up with the pace. employees are not products, they are people. As people, they spend money. If they have more, they spend more. When they spend more, more products and services are required to keep up with the demand -- more employees are required to make and sell those products and services.

 

[DSully1995]

this has been argued over and over again in this thread. raise the minimum wage and people have more money in their pockets to spend on products and services, which would create a higher demand for employees to keep up with the pace. employees are not products, they are people. As people, they spend money. If they have more, they spend more. When they spend more, more products and services are required to keep up with the demand -- more employees are required to make and sell those products and services.

Once again trying to pull the levers of life. Why not have government print cheques for 100 000$ dollars for everyone wed all become stupid rich?


There is one way to increase income, and that to increase the amount of goods and services produced.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

this has been argued over and over again in this thread. raise the minimum wage and people have more money in their pockets to spend on products and services, which would create a higher demand for employees to keep up with the pace. employees are not products, they are people. As people, they spend money. If they have more, they spend more. When they spend more, more products and services are required to keep up with the demand -- more employees are required to make and sell those products and services.

Less people have more money because employers (those evil rich people that provide jobs) will have less demand for their employees services.

 

[GoIrish41]

So much wrong with this statement.


Raise the minimum wage and students are the biggest losers. I probably wouldn't have gotten the offer I did out of college without all my work experience throughout high school and college. It ended up being directly related to the field I am currently in.

Think you are worth more than minimum wage? Prove it. I got small raises with every new position I took.

When I got out of college, a dollar bought a whole lot more than it buys today. Minimum wage was lower, but a worker could buy more with his take home pay. All I'm suggesting is raising the minimum wage so that an individual who is working can buy the same amount as I could buy when I was your age. You put the onus on the individual to show that he or she is worth, in realy dollars, about half of what I had to do. And the companies that take advantage of the every shrinking cost of labor continue to get richer while the employees get poorer. We've had discussions before, so I know a little about your situation. Come from a fairly well-off family, went to an elite college. No doubt you can appreciate that your situation is not typical of most Americans. Those students who you say would be hurt might actually be able to save up to buy their books to attend community college if they had just a bit more in their pocket. I really don't think that raising the minimum wage would make jobs go away. I actually think it is more likely that it would help increase employment.

 

[GoIrish41]

Less people have more money because employers (those evil rich people that provide jobs) will have less demand for their employees services.

Walk me through that, because the way I see it these people who spend more money would make demand for products and services grow. I get that labor would be more expensive, but business would be better too.

 

[GoIrish41]

Once again trying to pull the levers of life. Why not have government print cheques for 100 000$ dollars for everyone wed all become stupid rich?


There is one way to increase income, and that to increase the amount of goods and services produced.

wouldn't increased demand actually bring that about. If I own a business that makes a product and more people start buying that product (because they have more money in their pocket) I'm going to produce more of that product. In order to do that, I will likely need more employees to keep pace.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

When I got out of college, a dollar bought a whole lot more than it buys today. Minimum wage was lower, but a worker could buy more with his take home pay. All I'm suggesting is raising the minimum wage so that an individual who is working can buy the same amount as I could buy when I was your age. You put the onus on the individual to show that he or she is worth, in realy dollars, about half of what I had to do. And the companies that take advantage of the every shrinking cost of labor continue to get richer while the employees get poorer. We've had discussions before, so I know a little about your situation. Come from a fairly well-off family, went to an elite college. No doubt you can appreciate that your situation is not typical of most Americans. Those students who you say would be hurt might actually be able to save up to buy their books to attend community college if they had just a bit more in their pocket. I really don't think that raising the minimum wage would make jobs go away. I actually think it is more likely that it would help increase employment.

If I told my parents I didn't come from an average American family I would get smacked upside the head. Both sets of grandparents started out working class and finished well above it, thus setting up the rest of the generations (i.e putting their kids through college when they could barely afford to do so).

THIS is the American dream. Coming from nothing and having nothing stopping you from moving up the ladder of life.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

Walk me through that, because the way I see it these people who spend more money would make demand for products and services grow. I get that labor would be more expensive, but business would be better too.

Products then become more expensive as well (since demand for said products has risen).

All you are doing is raising the floor, not the people from the floor.

 

[GoIrish41]

If I told my parents I didn't come from an average American family I would get smacked upside the head. Both sets of grandparents started out working class and finished well above it, thus setting up the rest of the generations (i.e putting their kids through college when they could barely afford to do so).

THIS is the American dream. Coming from nothing and having nothing stopping you from moving up the ladder of life.

I don't think there is anything wrong with what your family was able to do for you, and I'm certainly not condeming you for your good fortune. All I'm saying is that it has helped you toward opportunities that many will never have. For many the difference a few extra dollars an hour would make in thier lives would be huge. Just getting to the spending power that I had back in my minimum wage days would be big. People who work full time should not have to get foodstamps to feed their families. It's just not right.

 

[chicago51]

Once again trying to pull the levers of life. Why not have government print cheques for 100 000$ dollars for everyone wed all become stupid rich?


There is one way to increase income, and that to increase the amount of goods and services produced.

Because giving everyone a hundred grand is insane. It is not about everyone being rich. It is about people who work full time having what Teddy Roosevelt defined as a living wages.

If you decrease demand too much yes you will have a labor shortage which means higher wages. However prices will skyrocket because companies can keep up the demand. Right now are economy is not close to its output potential we got a large supply of workers available to work. Of course there is a limit. This is supply and demand Econ 101 stuff. Demand is what drives the economy but too much demand will cause a rise in prices.

Edit: Would like to add the minimum wage is not going to dramatically increases prices. Walmart can cover a 12 dollar an hour wage by raising prices 1 percent.

 

[Wild Bill]

If the top one is correct, conservatives should push to raise the minimum wage and demonstrate their respect for the working poor.

I think enough of them to believe they'll increase their own wage by acquiring the skills necessary to earn a higher income.

 

[DSully1995]

wouldn't increased demand actually bring that about. If I own a business that makes a product and more people start buying that product (because they have more money in their pocket) I'm going to produce more of that product. In order to do that, I will likely need more employees to keep pace.

Only in the SR, until the bubble bursts and everything collapses, since its not real growth

 

[GoIrish41]

Products then become more expensive as well (since demand for said products has risen).

All you are doing is raising the floor, not the people from the floor.

So the worst thing that might happen is that its a wash? Then, why not give it a shot and see what happens. This has been a debate as long as I can remember (and a lot of the guys on the What Athlete Do you Wish You Could Have Seen thread, I've seen. lol) and there is always a high level of resistence fm the right? Lets just give it bringing the wages up to the point they were (in real dollars) 30 years ago and see how it shakes out -- especially since at worst things stay the same. I think trying to do something to make things better is almost always better than doing nothing while folks are hurting.

 

[DSully1995]

Because giving everyone a hundred grand is insane. It is not about everyone being rich. It is about people who work full time having what Teddy Roosevelt defined as a living wages.

If you decrease demand too much yes you will have a labor shortage which means higher wages. However prices will skyrocket because companies can keep up the demand. Right now are economy is not close to its output potential we got a large supply of workers available to work. Of course there is a limit. This is supply and demand Econ 101 stuff. Demand is what drives the economy but too much demand will cause a rise in prices.

So you took Econ 101?

 

[RallySonsOfND]

So the worst thing that might happen is that its a wash? Then, why not give it a shot and see what happens. This has been a debate as long as I can remember (and a lot of the guys on the What Athlete Do you Wish You Could Have Seen thread, I've seen. lol) and there is always a high level of resistence fm the right? Lets just give it bringing the wages up to the point they were (in real dollars) 30 years ago and see how it shakes out -- especially since at worst things stay the same. I think trying to do something to make things better is almost always better than doing nothing while folks are hurting.

So we reduce everyone else's buying power?

Then those on minimum wage are back to the same place. Yeah they are making more, but everything costs more.

 

[GoIrish41]

Only in the SR, until the bubble bursts and everything collapses, since its not real growth

Paying people more will cause a bubble? Or the run on goods and services will cause a bubble? If businesses are selling more products and services, why is that not real growth?

 

[RallySonsOfND]

Paying people more will cause a bubble? Or the run on goods and services will cause a bubble? If businesses are selling more products and services, why is that not real growth?

Remember that housing bubble?

 

[GoIrish41]

So we reduce everyone else's buying power?

Then those on minimum wage are back to the same place. Yeah they are making more, but everything costs more.

I'm not convinced that everything would cost more. I don't think, for example, a person who makes $10 an hour is going to be buying all the same products that I do. The price of some things might go up, I suppose, but I don't think that puts those on minimum wage back to square one.

 

[chicago51]

I want to say while I am in favor of raising the minimum wage I think it is a bandaid for negative consequences of globalization and free trade. Minimum wage jobs are becoming careers because the jobs aren't here.

Minimum wage and low wages jobs are supposed to be the jobs people can work their way to school on (in fact students used graduate college with no debt back in the 60s and 70s) not have do for their career.

 

[DSully1995]

Paying people more will cause a bubble? Or the run on goods and services will cause a bubble? If businesses are selling more products and services, why is that not real growth?

Spending was great in 2004 was it not? Spending without adding any Labour or Capital will not affect the economy in the Long run.


My point is that we want to be increasing labour and increasing economic freedom, more economically free you are the richer you are (INCLUDING the "poor"), that involves the freedom to sell your labour at the rate which you want, and firms should be able to offer at the rate they want. No one is forcing you to work at McDonalds, and Mcdonalds sees your CURRENT skills are only worth (or even worse: not even) a low wage.

 

[GoIrish41]

Remember that housing bubble?

The price of housing went up and up and up. I remember it distinctly. I sold two houses during it, one on the high end on one in which I took it in the shorts. How is giving people a $3 raise create that same clusterfuck? Sorry, past my bedtime and I'm not following.