Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

chicago51

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Republican strategy: We've got absolutely nothing going for us, so let's try to make them look bad. Maybe we can win by default.

Two other things on this:

1) This could mean more hearings and thus less time talking about immigration, 2014 FYI budget, etc. The fact of the matter is scandal's distract the public from the issues. Lets be honest a presidential scandal is much more fun than immigration reform.

2) I believe the IRS, and AP scandals do deserves investigation as we are talking about legitimate violation of rights regardless of what the intent or reason was.

I mentioned this earlier about Benghazi. We have already a ton of Benghazi hearings and it has dragged on for political show. I think this is a way for moderate Republicans to score points with the tea party so they can pass a moderate/centrist budget agreement with the President, and a debt ceiling increase. Fortunately and unfortunately the deficit has fallen much faster than anticipated by the CBO so the debt fight could linger on well into the fall and things could drag out.
 

phgreek

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Republican strategy: We've got absolutely nothing going for us, so let's try to make them look bad. Maybe we can win by default.

overstatement of effort involved here...think in terms of spectators to a bus wreck...yea they point, some maybe even call for help, or talk to the media as to the horror...no "try" in any of that....none needed.
 

phgreek

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IRS report shows why tea party scandal was almost inevitable - CSMonitor.com

ND professor comments in the article.

The whole IRS scandal raises the question about what to do with 501c4 organizations.

I am a member of Progressive Democrats of America and Organizing for Action. OFA is essentially the Obama campaign. Organizing for Action not to be confused with Organizing for America is a 501c4. I can tell you OFA is not a social welfare group they shouldn't be a 501c4 and neither should so of these other super pacs that are clearly political not advocacy groups.

good read, and I agree the IRS is in a tough spot...HOWEVER, the reason they chose conservative groups for scrutiny has nothing to do with the logistics of managing a difficult task. Had they written a numerical algorithm that just so happened to return conservative groups at a higher hit rate...I'd defend them. Doing a key word search of organizational names and information is asking for trouble, and should immediately raise a red flag.


what to do about 501c4...I agree, totally abused, change is required...but we should never find ourselves where we are today, so inevitable...No.
 
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Cackalacky

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ACamp1900

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Republican strategy: We've got absolutely nothing going for us, so let's try to make them look bad. Maybe we can win by default.

In fairness that is pretty much the same strategy the dems took on about ten years ago...
 
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Cackalacky

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In fairness that is pretty much the same strategy the dems took on about ten years ago...
Gallup_Poll-Approval_Rating-George_W_Bush.png


Bush did not need any help and he was self sustaining.....

(gallup polling data)
 

ACamp1900

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Of course... Attempts to make your guy look bad and/or playing politics is somehow shameful... But uniformly voting to go to war then publicly opposing it once its became clear to the dems it would be politically convent for their party to rip the country to shreds over the issue and then blaming Bush for the housing bubble they basically created all during lost election cycles had absolutely nothing to do with politics or smearing the other side at all..... And was not political at all I'm sure... Because 'Bush sucked...' Guess what, Obama sucks *** too... Congratulations.


Childish much?? Yep. though, in reality what the left did then is the same thing the Right is doing now... Both attempts propbably hurt the country and are Pure politics...
 
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Cackalacky

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Of course... Attempts to make your guy look bad and/or playing politics is somehow shameful... But uniformly voting to go to war then publicly opposing it once its became clear to the dems it would be politically convent for their party to rip the country to shreds over the issue and then blaming Bush for the housing bubble they basically created all during lost election cycles is absolutely had nothing to do with politics are smearing the other side at all..... And was not political at all I'm sure... Because 'Bush sucked...' Guess what, Obama sucks *** too... Congratulations.


Childish much?? Yep. though, in reality what the left did then is the same thing the Right is doing now... Both attempts probably hurt the country and are Pure politics...

For the record I have no guy. The whole things needs a reboot IMO. Seriously.... dems were tough on Bush? Bush needed only open his mouth, or fondle a foreign minister. The dude was a walking disaster. You think what republicans are doing now is the SAME as what dems did in Bush's term?... please. Dems put their pants on and walked into work waiting for Bush to do something stupid. Of course i would politicize that stuff. Republicans today are actively engaging in class warfare and filibustering any chance of economic recovery at every opportunity, losing ground in every demographic, painting themselves into a ideological corner, are internally divided, and since they failed with that strategy during the campaign they are doubling down and do not care if the country comes with it. And Obama is helping them to boot. Come on man,.....you are better than that Acamp.

And I am being childish? OK.....
 

ACamp1900

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My point is the whole thing is childish... Not YOU... And republicans are engaging in class warfare.............? Wow

I can just as easily say how can the right NOT fight these battles when the country is completely leaderless and our president takes every single breath from the standpoint of 'how can i make America the bad guy and apoligize more' or ' how can this secure more power for my party moving forward'... Sure was nice when we had ANY president who was more than just his party's leader and everyone else was to be smeared and mocked... Great leadership...

And how about the right knows this guy doesn't have the first clue what's he's doing and rather than win political battles they are saving the country from a complete bonehead.... Even if it hurts their future???... That's leadership.

See how easy that works?... My point is the perspectives in here are slanted either way... Clearly... And laughably so often times. How about none of them give two shits about anything but their party and power, and they are all equally guilty...?? Agree on rebooting...
 
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Ndaccountant

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New White House email: Proof there was no Benghazi cover-up?

Benghazi emails released show that there was in fact no cover up.

One down two go.

Actually the IRS and Associated Press scandals are much more concerning and deserve full investigations.

Inspector general already investigated IRS but the justice department is doing its own investigation. If the IRS does make its way to Obama, he's done. I have confidence it won't but we'll have to see it play out.

'Ineffective Management' at IRS to Blame for Tea Party Targeting, Report Finds - ABC News

As far as seizing the AP phone records I actually think Eric Holder's excuse of it being a national security issue that put Americans at risk would be a legit excuse if Americans really were at risk. I'm not sure I buy the AP reporting on successful terrorist intervention the day after it happened as a reason to ignore the first amendment. I still think Eric Holder should resign.

Then again I have a bias against Holder ever since he said this "I am concerned that the size of some of these institutions becomes so large that it does become difficult for us to prosecute them when we are hit with indications that if you do prosecute, if you do bring a criminal charge, it will have a negative impact on the national economy, perhaps even the world economy,"

I think this Huff post article says it all on Holder: Richard (RJ) Eskow: Holder Says Leak Required "Very Aggressive Action"... Bank Crimes, Not So Much

Has this questioned been answered?

Why did Susan Rice go all over the sunday talk shows proclaiming the attack was due a viedo when evidence and knowledge suggested otherwise? Who told Susan Rice to do this?

Any answer to that question produces a result that is not pretty. Were they intentionally misleading? Were they incompentant? Were people going rogue?
 
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chicago51

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Would any of you be willing to give up any checks and balances in order to get government to move functionably?

No. The system has worked, just doesn't work with these people. Though, call me an optimist but I think something gets done on immigration, and the budget. Maybe even the Machin Toomey background check will get another vote and passed.

Although it wouldn't hurt my feelings if we did away with the "silent secret 60 votes for everything" Senate filibusters, and went back to where everyone had to do it Rand Paul style. I'm not blaiming the Republicans for using the rules to their advantage. The Democrat majority could change rules any time and have refused to do so.

Although I would argue that the Supreme Court having judicial review is not constitutional. Not to say the SC hasn't done some good things because of that.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the Supreme Court can strike down laws. After Marbury v Madison which set the presedent of judicial review Thomas Jefferson was furious.

I am not sure how you would categorize Jefferson as he was very pro poor and worried about wealth corupting government but he was very pro states rights and believed strongly in small government. I would probably say he is a progressive Republican that is a rarity in today's politics. Jefferson had this to say about the Supreme Court:

"The question whether the judges are invested with exclusive authority to decide on the constitutionality of a law has been heretofore a subject of consideration with me in the exercise of official duties. Certainly there is not a word in the Constitution which has given that power to them more than to the Executive or Legislative branches." --Thomas Jefferson to W. H. Torrance, 1815. ME 14:303

"But the Chief Justice says, 'There must be an ultimate arbiter somewhere.' True, there must; but does that prove it is either party? The ultimate arbiter is the people of the Union, assembled by their deputies in convention, at the call of Congress or of two-thirds of the States. Let them decide to which they mean to give an authority claimed by two of their organs. And it has been the peculiar wisdom and felicity of our Constitution, to have provided this peaceable appeal, where that of other nations is at once to force." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:451

"But, you may ask, if the two departments [i.e., federal and state] should claim each the same subject of power, where is the common umpire to decide ultimately between them? In cases of little importance or urgency, the prudence of both parties will keep them aloof from the questionable ground; but if it can neither be avoided nor compromised, a convention of the States must be called to ascribe the doubtful power to that department which they may think best." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:47

One more thing on the Supreme Court: I am pro choice but I would argue that SC taking the Roe v. Wade case was a bad thing for abbortion. I find the whole 3 trimester thing to be totally ridiculous. It took the debate out of the legistlature and I think gave more fuel to the anti-abbortion fire. I find abbortion to be a tough topic but the one thing I feel strongly about is that abbortion is a legistlative matter not a court or constitutional matter.
 
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Cackalacky

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Has this questioned been answered?

Why did Susan Rice go all over the sunday talk shows proclaiming the attack was due a viedo when evidence and knowledge suggested otherwise? Who told Susan Rice to do this?

Any answer to that question produces a result that is not pretty. Were they intentionally misleading? Were they incompentant? Were people going rogue?

It is my understanding that the CIA director wanted to remove indications of who the attackers were so that it would not hinder an investigation or capture of those responsible, so they removed Al-Queda et. al. from the story to not give away who they were looking for. I have heard the movie thing as a distraction so the CIA could focus on who did the attack. And let the parroting begin. This does not excuse it in my book, but..... my book is not worth much.

Lost in the controversy over who requested revisions of CIA-written talking points on September’s attacks in Benghazi, Libya, that killed four Americans is one key fact: In every iteration of the document, the CIA asserted that a video protest preceded the assaults, and no official reviewing the talking points suggested that that was in error.

Yet interviews with U.S. officials and others indicate that they knew nearly immediately that there had been no protest outside the U.S. diplomatic mission in Benghazi before attackers stormed it, setting a fire that killed Ambassador Chris Stevens and Sean Smith, a State Department computer expert. A subsequent attack on a CIA annex nearby killed two security contractors, former Navy SEALs Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods.

Why the CIA insisted that there had been a protest tied to a YouTube video that mocked the Prophet Muhammad for several days after the attack, mirroring some news reports, has never been publicly explained

Read more here: In talking points controversy, an unanswered question: Why did CIA say a protest preceded Benghazi attack? | McClatchy
 
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phgreek

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It is my understanding that the CIA director wanted to remove indications of who the attackers were so that it would not hinder an investigation or capture of those responsible, so they removed Al-Queda et. al. from the story to not give away who they were looking for. I have heard the movie thing as a distraction do the CIA could focus on who did the attack. This does not excuse it in my book, but..... my book is not worth much.

...movie guy is still in jail isn't he?

I ask because it would seem an unfathomable trade-off to make someone's liberty expendable in support of a distraction scheme. In hindsight...having no one from the Benghazi incident captured, and the press having allegedly identified one of the perpetrators frolicking about in public...this CIA excuse seems to get thinner.
 
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Cackalacky

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...movie guy is still in jail isn't he?

I ask because it would seem an unfathomable trade-off to make someone's liberty expendable in support of a distraction scheme. In hindsight...having no one from the Benghazi incident captured, and the press having allegedly identified one of the perpetrators frolicking about in public...this CIA excuse seems to get thinner.

I am in no way excusing it, but it does boil down to the talking points issued by the CIA. If you read the article (link provided above), the article goes on to talk about CIAs recent failures.

I agree the movie guy should be let go if he is still in jail. No one captured? Another failure. I also am not saying that is the only motive being a distraction. An inquiry is definitely needed. I am still more troubled by the AP thing though.
 
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Cackalacky

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Would any of you be willing to give up any checks and balances in order to get government to move functionably?

I probably could live with a presidential line item veto again, at least for a short while, maybe with an expiration date. Clinton wielded that shits like a surgeon.
 

GoIrish41

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Of course... Attempts to make your guy look bad and/or playing politics is somehow shameful... But uniformly voting to go to war then publicly opposing it once its became clear to the dems it would be politically convent for their party to rip the country to shreds over the issue and then blaming Bush for the housing bubble they basically created all during lost election cycles had absolutely nothing to do with politics or smearing the other side at all..... And was not political at all I'm sure... Because 'Bush sucked...' Guess what, Obama sucks *** too... Congratulations.


Childish much?? Yep. though, in reality what the left did then is the same thing the Right is doing now... Both attempts propbably hurt the country and are Pure politics...

or, realizing they had been lied to about unshakable proof about weapons of mass distruction might have had something to do with it.
 

ACamp1900

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or, realizing they had been lied to about unshakable proof about weapons of mass distruction might have had something to do with it.

or they saw a political opportunity and lied about being lied to....

again, whoever you side with is where your truth tends to fall right??

basically this video sums it all up nicely...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/omne1uHAOnU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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Cackalacky

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or they saw a political opportunity and lied about being lied to....

again, whoever you side with is where your truth tends to fall right??

basically this video sums it all up nicely...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/omne1uHAOnU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I knew that you knew that I knew that GoIrish knew he was gonna say that to you.
 

GoIrish41

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or they saw a political opportunity and lied about being lied to....

again, whoever you side with is where your truth tends to fall right??

basically this video sums it all up nicely...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/omne1uHAOnU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

or whatever is the most plausible. anyone is capable of dismissing the obvious by just saying everyone is biased and can't be trusted. It doesn't make the answer any less obvious.
 

chicago51

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This departmenet of justice scandal may lead to something positive.

Obama wants a reporter shield bill which would give reporters certain protections from the federal government to be reintroduced. Bill was written by Senator Chuck Schumer.

Reporter Shield Law: Obama Asks Schumer For New Bill After Hampering Prior Efforts

Obama was orginally against the bill back in 2009. Glad to see he has turned the corner on this. I think the freedom of press is very important. There is a reason it was part of the first amendment in the Bill of Rights.
 
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Cackalacky

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The Delegate from South Carolina has the floor....

As a progressive living in a red state who exists in a perpetual state of cognitive dissonance, I propose that the right honorable posters of IE declare their intention to begin a new thread wherein all who gather shall discuss the subject of a New American Continental Congress. This New Continental Congress shall convene, initially to establish a set of grievances against the citizens and perpetrated by the current government of these united States, with the purpose of generating a solution to the current state of affairs.

I yield the floor.
 

chicago51

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As a progressive living in a red state who exists in a perpetual state of cognitive dissonance, I propose that the right honorable posters of IE declare their intention to begin a new thread wherein all who gather shall discuss the subject of a New American Continental Congress. This New Continental Congress shall convene, initially to establish a set of grievances against the citizens and perpetrated by the current government of these united States, with the purpose of generating a solution to the current state of affairs.

I yield the floor.

If you are talking about changes I think instant run off voting deserves consideration.

It encourages more candidates with new ideas not this the same old same old from each party.

It allows more candidates to run, you could have more parties with more ideas. Unlike today's election where 3 is a crowd.

Essentially you rank candidates in order. So if your candidate is the last place candidate in the runoff, you vote goes toward the # 2 candidate. If candidate gets 50% of the vote naturally the race is over.

300px-IRV_counting_flowchart.svg.png


FairVote.org | Instant Runoff Voting

Instant Runoff Voting FAQ
Frequently Asked Questions

Q: What is instant runoff voting?
A: Instant runoff voting is a method of electing a single winner. It provides an alternative to plurality and runoff elections. In a plurality election, the highest vote-getter wins even if s/he receives less than 50% of the vote. In a runoff election, two candidates advance to a runoff if no candidate receives more than 50% in the first round.

Q: How does it work?
A: Voters rank candidates in order of choice: 1, 2, 3 and so on. It takes a majority to win. If a majority of voters rank a candidate first, that candidate is elected. If not, the last place candidate is defeated, just as in a runoff election, and all ballots are counted again, but this time each ballot cast for the defeated candidate counts for the next ranked candidate listed on the ballot. The process of eliminating the last place candidate and recounting the ballots continues until one candidate receives a majority of the vote. With modern voting equipment, all of the counting and recounting takes place rapidly and automatically.

IRV acts like a series of runoff elections in which one candidate is eliminated each election. Each time a candidate is eliminated, all voters get to choose among the remaining candidates. This continues until one candidate receives a majority of the vote.

Q: Isn’t this too complex for the voter?
A: Not at all. All the voter has to do is rank one or more candidates. It’s like renting a video or picking an ice cream: What video (or flavor) do you want? That’s your first choice. If they don’t have that video (or flavor), what would you like? That’s your second choice. If they don’t have that, what’s your third pick? That’s all there is to it. It’s as easy as 1-2-3. Data from actual IRV elections in the U.S. show no overall increase of invalid ballots, with some jurisdictions actually showing a decrease.

Q: Doesn’t this give extra votes to supporters of defeated candidates?
A: No. In each round, every voter’s ballot counts for exactly one candidate. In this respect, it’s just like a two-round runoff election. You vote for your favorite candidate in the first round. If your candidate advances to the second round, you keep supporting that candidate. If not, you get to pick among the remaining candidates. In IRV candidates get eliminated one at a time, and each time, all voters get to select among the remaining candidates. At each step of the ballot counting, every voter has exactly one vote for a continuing candidate. That’s why courts have upheld the constitutionality of IRV.

Q: Does IRV avoid the "spoiler" problem?
A: Yes...much the same as q traditional delayed runoffs does. In multiple-candidate races, like-minded constituencies such as Latinos, liberals, conservatives, etc. can split their vote among their own competing candidates, allowing a candidate with less overall support to prevail. IRV allows those voters to rank all of their candidates and watch as votes transfer to their candidate with the most support. In partisan races, IRV eliminates the possibility of a small third party candidate "spoiling" the race by taking enough votes from one major candidate to elect the other.

Q: Does IRV save money?
A: Generally. Traditional two-round, "delayed" runoffs are common around the country. IRV roughly halves the cost of those elections because it determines a majority winner in a single election. Before adopting IRV, for example, San Francisco spent as much as $2 million on each election in its delayed runoff, and statewide runoffs in places such as Texas cost far more. In addition, many states and cities use two rounds of special elections to fill vacated seats when they could instead elect a popular winner with IRV in one round of voting. In such situations IRV also reduces the reliance of candidates on special interest donors because they only have to campaign and raise money for one election rather than two.

Q: Does IRV affect voter turnout positively?
A: Yes. Turnout generally increases (though any given election under any voting method may happen to have no or only token opponents and lack excitement, which means lower turnout). IRV gives every voter incentive to participate because your vote still counts even if your first choice candidate is defeated. Also, since IRV only requires one election, the decisive election takes place when turnout is highest, typically November.

Q: Does IRV affect campaign debate?
A: Yes. Because IRV may require second and third choice votes to win, candidates have incentive to focus on the issues, to attract voters to their positions and to form coalitions. Negative campaigning and personal attacks are much less effective in an IRV election.

Q: Where is IRV used?
A: Many places. Ireland uses IRV to elects its president, Australia to elect its House of Representatives, London to elect its mayor, San Francisco to elect its major city offices such as mayor, Minneapolis elects all single-seat offices, many major universities for their student government elections and the American Political Science Association to elect its president. Literally hundreds of jurisdictions, organizations and corporations use IRV to elect leaders.

Q: Whom does IRV advantage?
A: IRV advantages the majority, since it ensures that a minority of voters can never defeat a candidate supported by a majority. It also gives the voter more power, since s/he can express a range of choices. It does not inherently advantage or disadvantage any political party, ideology, or interest group.

Q: Can the voting equipment handle IRV?
A: Modern voting equipment, such as optical scanners and computer touch screens, can handle IRV with an upgrade of software. Older technologies such as punch cards and lever machines cannot handle IRV. In these cases, we recommend legislation authorizing the use of IRV when the equipment is available. For reasons unrelated to IRV, the trend in voting equipment is away from the older technologies, so more and more jurisdictions are acquiring equipment that can potentially handle IRV.

Q: Why don’t more places use IRV?
A: Prior to the advent of modern vote counting equipment, IRV required a time-consuming hand count. Some jurisdictions that used IRV in statewide primaries found that they rarely had plurality (less than majority) winners, so IRV seemed unnecessary. With today’s diversity and proliferation of parties and candidates, low plurality winners are more common, and hand counts are largely unnecessary.

Q: Who opposes IRV?
A: Some political minorities, who have won election thanks to the "spoiler" dynamic, may believe that they can only win representation in a plurality election. Such groups may oppose IRV, but of course, in such situations, a larger group stands to gain representation by IRV. Some opponents active on the Internet (few in number, but very persistent) include advocates of other election reforms, who see IRV as competing with their preferred reform ideas. Election officials are also understandably cautious about a system that may increase their workload, and some incumbents fear any change to the system that elected them. If you can win an election under a plurality or runoff system, however, the odds are that you would also win under IRV. The exceptions are rare but can be important. Examples include several House races in New Mexico, where Green and Democratic Party candidates split liberal support bases, throwing races to Republicans, and state legislative races in Alaska in which Libertarians and Alaskan Independent Party candidates knocked off Republicans.

instant-runoff-voting.png
 
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ACamp1900

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or whatever is the most plausible. anyone is capable of dismissing the obvious by just saying everyone is biased and can't be trusted. It doesn't make the answer any less obvious.

There is no 'obvious answer' in politics... only your opinions...

You feel people need help, it seems that is a driving force for you and that gov. is a great helper… doesn’t make you wrong/right good/bad… I see society’s issues and I don’t see gov. as a cure, in fact I often see gov. as the cause… doesn’t make me good/bad, right/wrong…


In terms of what happened or didn't happen with Iraq... everyone had the same intelligence from the CIA, at least so far as we know... the little that has been released supports that, the rest is still classified, you should know that... everything else is a ‘he said she said’... anything but "obvious"

Here are two articles from anything but right wing sources that give a pretty fair view of the thing imo... both flat out call dems out for lying about intelligence...

Democrats Share the Blame for Tragedy of Iraq War

The White House didn't lie about Iraq - Los Angeles Times


Merry Christmas.
 
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chicago51

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Another thing get rid of the electoral college, and just elect the President on the popular vote.

Don't allow Supreme Court to strike down laws.

I really think Instant Runoff Voting is something to think about.
 
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Cackalacky

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Slow down there Chicago51. Lets get some people together first. LOL. I will open a thread. If you are in sign in.
 
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