Politics

[GoIrish41]

Yea I just heard it on the news after I already posted. He had a good thing going then he had to be Ran Paul. That dude is one crazy bastard.

Seems like he has a need to say something profound every time he speaks and it causes him to reach to nonsense.

 

[chicago51]

I have very low expectations here but I always see things half full:

President is having dinner with a bunch of Republican Senators tonight. The President has had enough of John Boehner and Mitch Mcconnell. So he is going to go around Republican leadership to try make deal.

There will be some things that I probably won't like about a big deal. There is going to be real people getting hurt by these cuts. So I would take a compromise if helps a lot of people in this country.

 

[GoIrish41]

I have very low expectations here but I always see things half full:

President is having dinner with a bunch of Republican Senators tonight. The President has had enough of John Boehner and Mitch Mcconnell. So he is going to go around Republican leadership to try make deal.

There will be some things that I probably won't like about a big deal. There is going to be real people getting hurt by these cuts. So I would take a compromise if helps a lot of people in this country.

Lindsey Grahm will get primaried over this, and probably everyone else who goes to dinner with him will too. Rule #1 in the GOP these days is don't have anything to do with the President.

 

[Downinthebend]

could have done without the "Hitler" reference during his filibuster.

I think when we're talking about the executive branch unilaterly killing american citizens without charge, trial, or due process, a Hitler reference is a very nice reference.

Heres something I read somewhere.

"Pretty ironic that Rand Paul is filibustering because a Nobel Peace Prize winner won't say that he won't kill the citizens he governs"

 

[GoIrish41]

I think when we're talking about the executive branch unilaterly killing american citizens without charge, trial, or due process, a Hitler reference is a very nice reference.

My guess is that you are in a very small minority in your praise for this.

 

[Irish YJ]

My guess is that you are in a very small minority in your praise for this.

I'm guessing if we were talking about some other government using military drones to kill it's own citizens without due process, or even explaining it's policy, a Hitler reference would be OK?

I don't care if it's Obama or Bush, a willingness to allow our military to take action on American soil (so much history here) is what is in question. If the administration wants to change a longstanding policy that has been assumed a guiding principle for the military and CIA, I think an expanation is in order. Discussing policy does not jeopardize national security.

 

[chicago51]

Lindsey Grahm will get primaried over this, and probably everyone else who goes to dinner with him will too. Rule #1 in the GOP these days is don't have anything to do with the President.

I think though Benghazi rants from Grahm was him trying to look hardcore or nuts because he is worried about a primary. I actually think Grahm in reality is reasonable guy which illustrates the far right of the party is controlling the moderates.

This has not only brought grid lock to Congress but it is going to hurt the GOP in the long run. It already cost them in 2 Senate races. Look Mark Pryor Dem Senator from Arkansas votes against the Democrat bills at least 30 percent of the time. If the Democrats primaried the guy the further left guy would lose.

I am not sure what is about Obama that has drove the GOP insane. I think it has do with the fact that he is well black. I don't think it a pure hating kind of racism at least from the vast majority. I think it is more that Barack Obama represents a changing culture in America and some folks don't embrace the change.

I think a lot of tea party folks are actually unhappy about the inequality just as much as the occupy movement. The tea party sees government and to an extent urban minorities sucking their tax dollars for their social safety net. They too have lost their jobs and they too are mad. They tend to blame the government while occupy blames the 1 percent.

Would like to point out that this is no indication of how any one particular tea party voter or member may think.

 

[GoIrish41]

I'm guessing if we were talking about some other government using military drones to kill it's own citizens without due process, or even explaining it's policy, a Hitler reference would be OK?

I don't care if it's Obama or Bush, a willingness to allow our military to take action on American soil (so much history here) is what is in question. If the administration wants to change a longstanding policy that has been assumed a guiding principle for the military and CIA, I think an expanation is in order. Discussing policy does not jeopardize national security.

I am just as against the use of drones as anyone -- particularly when they are used to kill Americans. I'm not defending it in any way. But, I don't think it rises to the level of trying to systematically wipe an entire race of people from the planet and it shouldn't be spoken of in that context. Paul was more apologetic when he said it that those supporting him for the reference are after the fact.

 

[Irish YJ]

I think it's a simple case of entitlement taking the place of Inalienable Rights.

I also think it's very easy for people that don't pay taxes, to vote for someone else to foot the bill.

 

[Downinthebend]

I am just as against the use of drones as anyone -- particularly when they are used to kill Americans. I'm not defending it in any way. But, I don't think it rises to the level of trying to systematically wipe an entire race of people from the planet and it shouldn't be spoken of in that context. Paul was more apologetic when he said it that those supporting him for the reference are after the fact.

I didn't hear the context, but given the the President was involved in the killing of the 16 year old american kid, and countless non-american kids, I think a comparison of injustice to injustice is valid.

 

[GoIrish41]

I didn't hear the context, but given the the President was involved in the killing of the 16 year old american kid, and countless non-american kids, I think a comparison of injustice to injustice is valid.

I too am against the killing of kids, just to be clear. I just think the injustice you are talking about is not in the same universe as the injustice that happened under Hitler. Few things in the history of the world are. It is offensive to a great many people who suffered the horrors of the Nazis, or whose family members did, when Hitler is evoked when comparing anything to it.

 

[Irish YJ]

I am just as against the use of drones as anyone -- particularly when they are used to kill Americans. I'm not defending it in any way. But, I don't think it rises to the level of trying to systematically wipe an entire race of people from the planet and it shouldn't be spoken of in that context. Paul was more apologetic when he said it that those supporting him for the reference are after the fact.

My point is, that we'd easily reference Hitler or some other crazy dictator if we were talking about any other country doing this. The fact that the reference was used to describe our own government is not in itself wrong if we would do the same thing describing someone else, or some other nation doing the same. That is, unless the reference is altogether wrong, about our government, or about some other government.

Honestly I could give a $#!+ less about the reference. It is the lack of accoutability that bothers me. It's the fact that the administration feels that it doens't have to clarify why it feels it has the authority to toss away accepted policy without clear explanation. In most cases, if you can track a person down the street with a drone, you can just as easily arrest him. Why the need for a drone strike on American streets. I'd be OK with a drone strike managed by the local SWAT team, or the FBI, or some other institution that has clear accountability under the right circumstance. My problem with the whole situation is why the miliatry, and why can't you explain your change in policy.

 

[Downinthebend]

I too am against the killing of kids, just to be clear. I just think the injustice you are talking about is not in the same universe as the injustice that happened under Hitler. Few things in the history of the world are. It is offensive to a great many people who suffered the horrors of the Nazis, or whose family members did, when Hitler is evoked when comparing anything to it.

Honestly, I think once you pass a certain threshold of "evil", all comparisons are valid. To me that threshold is the murder of innocent people. I certainly think that abdulrahman al awlaki's grandfather could think that Obama is similar to Hitler.

 

[chicago51]

I think it's a simple case of entitlement taking the place of Inalienable Rights.

I also think it's very easy for people that don't pay taxes, to vote for someone else to foot the bill.

See the whole agreements with Medicare Medicaid and Social Security making us the welfare state does not make sense. At least not with Medicare and SS. You have to work to get those things. Also if you do work less your benefits are less. Heck if you make less your benefits are less.

You inalienable rights life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Some would say that government is a blocker of those things. I would argue that purpose of government is to be the protector of those rights. Sure the government has failed but that's when it is our job to fix it as we have government by the people for the people.

See capitalism don't give a crap about your life liberty and your pursuit of happiness. . We need capitalism we do. We need capitalism to make money. We need the government that truly is by the people for the people to protect those rights. The problem at least I feel is that capitalism through campaign fundraising and lobbyist has brought democracy.

The United States need to be a democracy again. A good start would be amending Citizens United. We need to go further. We need to get the lobbyist out Washington DC. Wishful thinking? Perhaps but it has to start somewhere.

www.movetoamend.org/

 

[DSully1995]

Rand paul being a boss

 

[Irish YJ]

bolded below

See the whole agreements with Medicare Medicaid and Social Security making us the welfare state does not make sense. At least not with Medicare and SS. You have to work to get those things. Also if you do work less your benefits are less. Heck if you make less your benefits are less.

I've been employed for 22 straight years without a break. Paid my taxes, and contributed to SS. I fear SS will be gone by the time I'm of age to collect.

You inalienable rights life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Some would say that government is a blocker of those things. I would argue that purpose of government is to be the protector of those rights. Sure the government has failed but that's when it is our job to fix it as we have government by the people for the people.

IMO, people do not care enough to stimulate change. Like the old story, if you throw a frog into a boiling pot, the frog jumps out. If you put the frog into cool water and then slowly bring it to a boil, the frog stays there and is boiled to death. America is the frog in a pot that is starting to boil.

See capitalism don't give a crap about your life liberty and your pursuit of happiness. . We need capitalism we do. We need capitalism to make money. We need the government that truly is by the people for the people to protect those rights. The problem at least I feel is that capitalism through campaign fundraising and lobbyist has brought democracy.

Captialism does not equate to lobbyists. The lack of campaign rules do. If candidates both got free and equal time only on PBS, and were not allowed to waste millions, we'd probably see a whole new type of candidate

The United States need to be a democracy again. A good start would be amending Citizens United. We need to go further. We need to get the lobbyist out Washington DC. Wishful thinking? Perhaps but it has to start somewhere.

we are still a democracy, we're just a lazy, socialist democracy, happy with with entitlement and trusful that the big government will take care of us all.

www.movetoamend.org/

 

[chicago51]

Bernie Sanders did a 9 hour filibuster on wealth inequality in the United States in 2010. I think Rand has beat that.

 

[chicago51]

bolded below

People have demand changed before. Civil Rights movement New Deal Woman's sufferage, we had big populist push just prior to Andrew Jackson that allowed all white men to vote not just home owners. We had a populist push in 1900s under Teddy Roosevelt were we took down the big monopolies.

I think a big populist push could be coming again.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

could have done without the "Hitler" reference during his filibuster.

I agree. Rand can't help himself from stating moronic, nonsensical garbage.

 

[GoIrish41]

My point is, that we'd easily reference Hitler or some other crazy dictator if we were talking about any other country doing this. The fact that the reference was used to describe our own government is not in itself wrong if we would do the same thing describing someone else, or some other nation doing the same. That is, unless the reference is altogether wrong, about our government, or about some other government.

Honestly I could give a $#!+ less about the reference. It is the lack of accoutability that bothers me. It's the fact that the administration feels that it doens't have to clarify why it feels it has the authority to toss away accepted policy without clear explanation. In most cases, if you can track a person down the street with a drone, you can just as easily arrest him. Why the need for a drone strike on American streets. I'd be OK with a drone strike managed by the local SWAT team, or the FBI, or some other institution that has clear accountability under the right circumstance. My problem with the whole situation is why the miliatry, and why can't you explain your change in policy.

I just disagree with the first bolded statement. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't agree that we would compare some other dictator to Hitler for killing a few people -- at least not in the mainstream. What Hitler did was beyond evil and the scale was incredible.

I completely agree with the underlined statement.

I'm back to disagreeing with the second bolded statement.

 

[GoIrish41]

People have demand changed before. Civil Rights movement New Deal Woman's sufferage, we had big populist push just prior to Andrew Jackson that allowed all white men to vote not just home owners. We had a populist push in 1900s under Teddy Roosevelt were we took down the big monopolies.

I think a big populist push could be coming again.

I think we are in the middle of a big populist movement right now on marriage equality.

That said, we do need to clean up our political system because I've not seen it so broken since Watergate.

 

[Downinthebend]

I agree. Rand can't help himself from stating moronic, nonsensical garbage.

If you've listened to what hes been talking about today I think it is more than enough "good" to overrule one (in your opinion) bad reference.

 

[chicago51]

This filibuster has taken a turn for the worse. Ted Cruz is talking.

 

[Downinthebend]

This filibuster has taken a turn for the worse. Ted Cruz is talking.

Happened several times, Rand Paul is tired and needs a break.

 

[GoIrish41]

If you've listened to what hes been talking about today I think it is more than enough "good" to overrule one (in your opinion) bad reference.

I'm not even arguing that the sentiment of Paul's fillibuster is off target. But, as usual, he has gone way too far. The drone policy of the Obama administration is deeply troubling, but it is nothing like what Hitler and the Nazis called "The Final Solution." Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed. More than a million Jewish children were murdered as were two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men. A network of more than 40,000 facilities in Germany and German-occupied territory was used to concentrate, hold, and kill Jews and other victims. The systematic way that Hitler went about killing these people who he considered sub-human is so horrific that it is impossible to overstate. Paul's statements weren't simply a bad reference, they were a monumental overstatement and a comparrision to a person who was responsible for maybe the worst thing that has ever happened to humanity in the history of mankind. It really doesn't matter how many "good" things he said, he destroys his credibility when he makes reckless, offensive statements evoking the name of Adolph Hitler.

 

[chicago51]

Happened several times, Rand Paul is tired and needs a break.

See that used to be against the rules if you gave the floor to someone else that was it.

That makes Bernie Sanders 2010 filibuster so impressive he went 8.5 hours by himself. He was not even filibustering a bill. He did it without warning to make a point about financial inequality.

To me though what Rand is doing is how all filibusters should be. You get as much time as you need for debate but of enough this 60 votes for every little petty thing.

 

[chicago51]

For the record the Obama administration has begun to take steps to make the drone policies more transparent.

 

[Downinthebend]

I'm not even arguing that the sentiment of Paul's fillibuster is off target. But, as usual, he has gone way too far. The drone policy of the Obama administration is deeply troubling, but it is nothing like what Hitler and the Nazis called "The Final Solution." Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed. More than a million Jewish children were murdered as were two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men. A network of more than 40,000 facilities in Germany and German-occupied territory was used to concentrate, hold, and kill Jews and other victims. The systematic way that Hitler went about killing these people who he considered sub-human is so horrific that it is impossible to overstate. Paul's statements weren't simply a bad reference, they were a monumental overstatement and a comparrision to a person who was responsible for maybe the worst thing that has ever happened to humanity in the history of mankind. It really doesn't matter how many "good" things he said, he destroys his credibility when he makes reckless, offensive statements evoking the name of Adolph Hitler.

The drone war has killed plenty of innocents also. I think it is a perfectly reasonable comparism. On the issue of "the leader in power unilaterly killing people" it would be rather relevant to bring up past leaders in power who unilaterly killed people. That you can disregard everything he has said ( I bet you didn't listen to much of it) just because he made one Hitler reference (in a way I believe to be reasonable) is unproportional and wrong to me.

If you don't think its a fair comparison, tell me how many innocent lives murdered does it take to be compared with Hitler, is it 100? 1000? 10000? To me, its not an issue of numbers.

 

[Downinthebend]

See that used to be against the rules if you gave the floor to someone else that was it.

That makes Bernie Sanders 2010 filibuster so impressive he went 8.5 hours by himself. He was not even filibustering a bill. He did it without warning to make a point about financial inequality.

To me though what Rand is doing is how all filibusters should be. You get as much time as you need for debate but of enough this 60 votes for every little petty thing.

I'm agree 100% that this is how fillibusters ought to be, you shouldn't be able to "secret" fillibuster or whatever.

 

[BobD]