Politics

[irishpat183]

What exactly do you consider 'handouts?'

Anytime government redistributes wealth from a producer/worker to a non-tax payer, or what I call "Zero liablity" voter.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I see this election coming down to 2 very simple facts:

1) Obama won with unemployment at 7.9%, the first time a president has done so since FDR. Republicans thought that if they ran strictly on the economy and job creation, they'd win easily. They were wrong. Obama's Chicago team painted Romney as the evil, rich white guy for a year and it worked.

2) Unemployment, food stamps, debt, deficits, no budget from Congress in 4 years...all things we thought would matter, simply did not matter. The recipient class voted more than the provider class. Plain and simple.

I welcome all debates on this but I ask one thing before any of you bitter, social justice libs start calling me mean and racist: go google the tytler cycle and let us all know where you think we are. I'm interested to hear different opinions.

With all that said, I pray to God that in 2016 unemployment isn't 8% and our debt isn't $20 trillion

1) I truly believe that people are seeing progress. Unemployment is lower in some of the swing states than the national average. Consumer confidence is also way up over the past several months. New unemployment claims are down and hiring is up...the unemployment raised 0.1% this past month because of a huge increase of people in the workforce.

2) I don't know if you're mean or racist. I'd hunch that you're not. But, I do take exception to the terms "recipient class" and "provider class." I think that's too simplistic. This was a full on economic collapse. Without the social safety net and increases in food stamps, many people wouldn't have eaten. Those numbers are going to go down as the economy recovers...and it seems to be picking up the pace.

 

[irishpat183]

Correct, this is a handout for those who pay taxes. It is a regressive policy that benefits the wealthy more than the middle class, and the middle class more than the poor. In the way this program is run it is no different than a hypothetical federal program that sent a very large welfare check to those making the most money each year, a smaller check to middle-income Americans, and little or nothing to poor Americans. So again, if you want to do something about the recipient class then make sure you start by skipping the mortgage deduction line on your income taxes this year.

Someone that doesn't work takes "handouts". Some that does work gets rewarded through incentives such as deductions.

That is the difference, IMO

 

[DSully1995]

Napolitano is an ND grad? Niiiiice, liked him since he support of Ron Paul, which no one else dared to do on tv.


But anyway, one the "Obama painted Romney as an evil capitalist", yes he sure did, for maybe 1 year at most, Obama's been painted as an un-american socialist for 4 years day in day out, Romney and GOP lost this election, Obama was the lesser evil (socially)

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Napolitano is an ND grad? Niiiiice, liked him since he support of Ron Paul, which no one else dared to do on tv.


But anyway, one the "Obama painted Romney as an evil capitalist", yes he sure did, for maybe 1 year at most, Obama's been painted as an un-american socialist for 4 years day in day out, Romney and GOP lost this election, Obama was the lesser evil (socially)

So did Parry, Santorum, Newt, and most of the rest of the primary contenders. It was REPUBLICANS who coined the term "vulture capitalist" during this election.

 

[Ndaccountant]

1) I truly believe that people are seeing progress. Unemployment is lower in some of the swing states than the national average. Consumer confidence is also way up over the past several months. New unemployment claims are down and hiring is up...the unemployment raised 0.1% this past month because of a huge increase of people in the workforce.
2) I don't know if you're mean or racist. I'd hunch that you're not. But, I do take exception to the terms "recipient class" and "provider class." I think that's too simplistic. This was a full on economic collapse. Without the social safety net and increases in food stamps, many people wouldn't have eaten. Those numbers are going to go down as the economy recovers...and it seems to be picking up the pace.

To be fair, the rate is down due to the number of people over the last 2 years that have dropped out of the force. Not to mention the amount of people who want full time employment, but can't find any.

The employment situation for those hit hardest by the down turn is still horrific.

 

[JughedJones]

Someone that doesn't work takes "handouts". Some that does work gets rewarded through incentives such as deductions.

That is the difference, IMO

Nobody takes 'handouts' till they do.

The problem with so many on the right is that they think people enjoy being poor. Like getting foodstamps so you don't have to feed your kid ketchup soup is a dream vacation.

People fall on incredibly hard times every once and a while, it is in our best interest as a nation to help people not starve.

P.S. Do you think public education and libraries are handouts? (Cringes while awaiting the answer.)

 

[autry_denson]

Someone that doesn't work takes "handouts". Some that does work gets rewarded through incentives such as deductions.

That is the difference, IMO

1) what work is rewarded through the home mortgage interest deduction? this doesn't make any sense relative to the rest of the dialogue.

2) so you support the federal and state earned income tax credits, I presume? your party doesn't.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

To be fair, the rate is down due to the number of people over the last 2 years that have dropped out of the force. Not to mention the amount of people who want full time employment, but can't find any.

The employment situation for those hit hardest by the down turn is still horrific.

That is fair and that is true. Some of them are starting to get back in. It's also undeniable that things are getting better and have been for quite a while. It's been slow because of the depth of the hole.

 

[irishpat183]

To be fair, the rate is down due to the number of people over the last 2 years that have dropped out of the force. Not to mention the amount of people who want full time employment, but can't find any.

The employment situation for those hit hardest by the down turn is still horrific.

Exactly. The REAL number is around an absurd, 16%.

And how's the market confidence the last two days???? Been tanking.


Let's just hope things turn around....

 

[Ndaccountant]

That is fair and that is true. Some of them are starting to get back in. It's also undeniable that things are getting better and have been for quite a while. It's been slow because of the depth of the hole.

Better, yes. Up to potential? That, to me, is a no.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Exactly. The REAL number is around an absurd, 16%.

And how's the market confidence the last two days???? Been tanking.


Let's just hope things turn around....

Also dropping

http://floatingpath.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Unemployment-Rate-650x433.png

 

[JughedJones]

Exactly. The REAL number is around an absurd, 16%.

And how's the market confidence the last two days???? Been tanking.


Let's just hope things turn around....

Interesting that people who are so gung-ho about self reliance and people's boot straps are all of a sudden so concerned about those who quit even looking for work.

There's a number of reasons people aren't counted in the unemployment numbers when they stop trying to find jobs.

 

[RDU Irish]

I see this election coming down to 2 very simple facts:

1) Obama won with unemployment at 7.9%, the first time a president has done so since FDR. Republicans thought that if they ran strictly on the economy and job creation, they'd win easily. They were wrong. Obama's Chicago team painted Romney as the evil, rich white guy for a year and it worked.

2) Unemployment, food stamps, debt, deficits, no budget from Congress in 4 years...all things we thought would matter, simply did not matter. The recipient class voted more than the provider class. Plain and simple.

I welcome all debates on this but I ask one thing before any of you bitter, social justice libs start calling me mean and racist: go google the tytler cycle and let us all know where you think we are. I'm interested to hear different opinions.

With all that said, I pray to God that in 2016 unemployment isn't 8% and our debt isn't $20 trillion

Tytler Cycle - I fear we have passed the tipping point, but I think people are generally fiscally ignorant on pretty much every level of their life. Since they can't comprehend economics, how would they possibly vote based on economic issues?

Unemployment will most likely be well under 8%. Obamacare will force employers to offer more part time work (already seeing this in restaurants and hospitality) so the underemployed numbers that everyone ignores will skyrocket.

$20 trillion debt is not much different than what Romney would produce, the problem will be the trend. Since a path to balancing the budget won't be there (IMO) interest rates have a better chance of getting out of control. Plus, $6 gasoline and other inflation in basic needs will push poor and middle class into an increasingly crappy position.


A point I missed in education - Pell Grants. I couldn't understand the focus on this. Well look at the demographics. Who Are Pell Grant Recipients? | Inside Higher Ed

While Student Loan interest rates is a better case for equal opportunity, Pell Grants allow Obama to buy the votes of his constituency. Stafford Loans are a hand up, Pell Grants are a hand out.

 

[GoIrish41]

Exactly. The REAL number is around an absurd, 16%.

Just like the real polls had Romney ahead?

 

[irishpat183]

Nobody takes 'handouts' till they do.

The problem with so many on the right is that they think people enjoy being poor. Like getting foodstamps so you don't have to feed your kid ketchup soup is a dream vacation.

People fall on incredibly hard times every once and a while, it is in our best interest as a nation to help people not starve.

P.S. Do you think public education and libraries are handouts? (Cringes while awaiting the answer.)

Yes, if your a non-tax payer and use those services. No if you're a taxpaying citizen. I know how that sounds.....but you asked and I want to keep it simple. Now, are there some things that I think are good "handouts"?? Yeah. Schoools and libraries are good for the community. Food stamps are not, and never have been. Neither are free cell phones.

And I don't for one minute believe that people enjoy being poor....However, we make it real easy in this country for them to make excuses as to why they are and for them to stay that way.

And not once did I mention party.

 

[irishff1014]

Nobody takes 'handouts' till they do.

The problem with so many on the right is that they think people enjoy being poor. Like getting foodstamps so you don't have to feed your kid ketchup soup is a dream vacation.

People fall on incredibly hard times every once and a while, it is in our best interest as a nation to help people not starve.

P.S. Do you think public education and libraries are handouts? (Cringes while awaiting the answer.)

I agree and disagree. There are some people who never had any intention of working and never do.

I also believe that poeple that fall on bad times are ashamed to take the help because they have never needed it before and are embarrassed. But they know that it will help them out until they get back on their feet. But you know as well as i do that there are jobs that are out there but it isn't the job they want. Beggers can't be choosers.

 

[JughedJones]

Yes, if your a non-tax payer and use those services. No if you're a taxpaying citizen. I know how that sounds.....but you asked and I want to keep it simple. Now, are there some things that I think are good "handouts"?? Yeah. Schoools and libraries are good for the community. Food stamps are not, and never have been. Neither are free cell phones.

And I don't for one minute believe that people enjoy being poor....However, we make it real easy in this country for them to make excuses as to why they are and for them to stay that way.

And not once did I mention party.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

FactCheck.org : The Obama Phone?

You guys really need to get out of your little bubble. Start by at least researching the other sides view points. You may be surprised that so much of what you believe is nonsense.

 

[PraetorianND]

Yes, if your a non-tax payer and use those services. No if you're a taxpaying citizen. I know how that sounds.....but you asked and I want to keep it simple. Now, are there some things that I think are good "handouts"?? Yeah. Schoools and libraries are good for the community. Food stamps are not, and never have been. Neither are free cell phones.

And I don't for one minute believe that people enjoy being poor....However, we make it real easy in this country for them to make excuses as to why they are and for them to stay that way.

And not once did I mention party.

Gotta bust your chops on this one. Normally I wouldn't point this out but you had the correct version of the word in the very next sentence!

 

[irishpat183]

Just like the real polls had Romney ahead?

I doubt most of your liberal buddies would disagree.... It's a fact. 16.1 or 16.2%

 

[DSully1995]

Yes, if your a non-tax payer and use those services. No if you're a taxpaying citizen. I know how that sounds.....but you asked and I want to keep it simple. Now, are there some things that I think are good "handouts"?? Yeah. Schoools and libraries are good for the community. Food stamps are not, and never have been. Neither are free cell phones.

And I don't for one minute believe that people enjoy being poor....However, we make it real easy in this country for them to make excuses as to why they are and for them to stay that way.

And not once did I mention party.

This is non-sense aswell, EVERYONE PAYS TAXES, your camp has been tellling you that 50% "dont chip in anything" , thats for income tax, since they cant make enough money. Propety tax, payroll, Excise`sales taxes.

 

[irishff1014]

Are you ****ing kidding me?

FactCheck.org : The Obama Phone?

You guys really need to get out of your little bubble. Start by at least researching the other sides view points. You may be surprised that so much of what you believe is nonsense.

I undersatnd the needy need a way to call for help too but the need to make it so these phones are registered just like yours and mine. Because if they call for help and hang up if there is no info with the phone company they could be out of luck. GPS with cells isn't were it needs to be but they are working pretty good on it.

 

[PraetorianND]

Good God. LOL

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I doubt most of your liberal buddies would disagree.... It's a fact. 16.1 or 16.2%

That's actually not true. It's around 14.7%. See the chart above...

 

[PraetorianND]

I have a question for all of those who voted for Romney. Was there anything during Obama's presidency that you thought was good? Do you support any of the decisions, actions, or otherwise that he engaged in?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Portal Seven | U6 Unemployment Rate

 

[JughedJones]

I doubt most of your liberal buddies would disagree.... It's a fact. 16.1 or 16.2%

Trying to break a number down to tenths that's nearly impossible to calculate is laughable. (If you can find a credible agency that has the numbers and isn't called 'FoxNews economic analyst' I'd like to see them.)

They don't report for unemployment anymore, they aren't counted anymore. That could be for any number of reasons, they found work, they found under the table work, they stopped looking, they left the country, etc etc etc.



Edit: The problem with the U6 is that they add part-time employees to the equation like they are necessarily underemployed. I.E. Do you want more hours at your job? Yes? Counted as unemployed.

I see why this is a useful metric, but there's a reason it doesn't lend itself to being considered the official number.

 

[pkt77242]

I'm not running for public office. And while the 47% remark wasn't popular, it was absolutely true. No father wants to hear that his kid is the worst player on the little league baseball team, but everyone knows it.

Where do you think we are in the tytler cycle? Just curious.

Actually it is false. The poorest states (Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi and Kentucky) vote republican. In fact the wealthiest states vote generally democrat (NY, MA, CA, CT etc). This type of thinking is why Romney lost the the election. SMH

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Trying to break a number down to tenths that's nearly impossible to calculate is laughable. (If you can find a credible agency that has the numbers and isn't called 'FoxNews economic analyst' I'd like to see them.)

They don't report for unemployment anymore, they aren't counted anymore. That could be for any number of reasons, they found work, they found under the table work, they stopped looking, they left the country, etc etc etc.

How about the mega-conservative RedState?

Today’s BLS Numbers: Garbage In Garbage Out | RedState

They aren't positive about the economy. But, they do say this:
"The U6 number stands at 14.6%, the same as when Obama took office."

And here's where FOX says it...

U.S. Adds 171,000 Jobs in October, Jobless Rate Rises | Fox Business

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Are you ****ing kidding me?

FactCheck.org : The Obama Phone?

You guys really need to get out of your little bubble. Start by at least researching the other sides view points. You may be surprised that so much of what you believe is nonsense.

I'll get out of my little bubble as soon as the white house and congress pulls us away from the fiscal cliff. To believe we can keep a nanny state running like this forever is nonsense and history proves that over and over again. Look. at. Europe.