Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

phgreek

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I think that the Doctor came off as (and very well might be) very callous during the interview. Having said that she is a doctor talking about a procedure and I have seen many doctors talk about things that people might find disturbing but that because they see it every day they talk about it very clinically and coldly. Also if you don't that it becomes hard to get through the day and you can't let it get to you otherwise you wouldn't last very long at it. I do agree that taking care of the patient should be the primary goal but if you can safely take care of the patient and still harvest their organs for research, why not? We do it with other people when they die (well they usually get donated to individuals who need that organ). After all the women is signing paperwork allowing them to do it.

..It is a procedure, I just draw a line at becoming callous to clipping colon pollups vs spinal cords. I understand abortion practitioners have come to terms with the hypocratic oath because the procedure is "saving" the mother...I presume it would be hard to get through the day if you perform elective abortions where mom is not in actual danger going in...and at some point it would cause a person huge problems from a mental perspective, but good hell...sometimes coping appears to the rest of us like a freaking mental disorder...

On the ethics front...I would suggest that there is a concern that the moment you manipulate your procedure, which is crafted only with mom's health in mind, you open the door for problems. You assign value to something that should not be valued in the paradigm you are allowed to operate within. This immediately provides motive to do less than focus on the patient's health. Would you be ok if a Dr. altered extraction techniques related to a tumor in order to preserve it for study if the incision had to be larger, or the procedure longer...the answer should be NO, without question.
 

IrishinSyria

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..It is a procedure, I just draw a line at becoming callous to clipping colon pollups vs spinal cords. I understand abortion practitioners have come to terms with the hypocratic oath because the procedure is "saving" the mother...I presume it would be hard to get through the day if you perform elective abortions where mom is not in actual danger going in...and at some point it would cause a person huge problems from a mental perspective, but good hell...sometimes coping appears to the rest of us like a freaking mental disorder...

On the ethics front...I would suggest that there is a concern that the moment you manipulate your procedure, which is crafted only with mom's health in mind, you open the door for problems. You assign value to something that should not be valued in the paradigm you are allowed to operate within. This immediately provides motive to do less than focus on the patient's health. Would you be ok if a Dr. altered extraction techniques related to a tumor in order to preserve it for study if the incision had to be larger, or the procedure longer...the answer should be NO, without question.

I would be 1000% ok with a doctor making a slightly larger incision or keeping me under for a little longer if they payoff was preserving a tumor for study, which could theoretically lead to advancements in medicine that could save millions of people. This is not even a close call. I'd also want a doctor, should I ever be in a vegetative state, to do whatever possible to preserve my organs for donation and/or study. If this means killing me instead of taking me off life support and letting me die, that's fine. I could go on and on.... might as well salvage something in these situations.
 
C

Cackalacky

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Good question. Let's pass another $800 billion "stimulus."

As a practicing civil engineer and particularly a structural engineer our crumbling infrastructure should be a very high priority. Its in poor shape, to say the least. It should be a priority not only for safety but also for the fact $800 billion in cost today will be $1+ trillion in a half decade....

And paying for it is a real big problem. Our new Cooper River bridge should have a service life of 100 years but it replaced a nearly 80 year old structure that was rated a 4/100 for a working bridge. Getting this bridge literally took an act of Congress to get federal funds to supplement our state raised funds.
 
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ACamp1900

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So if it would take 3.6 T how much more pork would have to be involved for it to actually get a serious look by anyone in power???
 
B

Buster Bluth

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I-10 in California closed after bridge collapses

I drive this stretch of road a few times a year. When are we going to tackle our aging infrastructure?

As much as I want to get money into the hands of working class people (ie stimulus), because I believe (as an amateur) in demand-side economics, I've seen too much in my daily job to think that a government program to solve infrastructure problems is going to solve anything. Likely, it will make it worse.

Today I worked on a one-mile road in a rather rural part of Lucas County, OH. They are getting a 20'-wide road paved and restabilized. There were ~20 houses on this road. It was not an arterial or collector road, it's actually rather out of the way considering it dead ends in both directions. The price tag for this project is, assuming no overruns, $318,435.20. Maybe I'm on acid, but I have a hard time believing the taxpayers on this stretch will come close to paying for that road over the next 25 years. It should have been tar and chipped. I see stuff like this on a daily basis.

Tax revenue goes to a larger government entity, and comes back via grant and no local engineer knows if their project is fiscally sustainable. At least not one I've met, as I've been road contracting for the last few years between undergrad and grad school.

Simply saying, we don't have feedback mechanisms to tell us if our infrastructure investments are justified. It's one of big government's biggest fuck ups of the post-World War II era. It's all about getting people to work and we don't stop to think if it makes sense long term.

Another round of massive infrastructure investment would likely put us further on the path towards fiscal implosion on a local level as the grants build infrastructure the local governments simply cannot maintain. I've gone back and looked at what a ton of asphalt cost the company fifteen years ago, $25, today it's $65. Do you think local governments are even remotely prepared for that in the long run? I doubt it.

I want all present civil engineers (looking at you cackalacky and Lax haha) to give me their thoughts on this guy, from what I see doing projects he seems to be right on the money:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sD47xo3c7WU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tn7aJ_Ti-co?list=PL4ZJBLI7Y9VoZKjBsjzwHJvjX4B4G_zJs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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IrishinSyria

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BB, what's the alternative? Let bridges collapse because local governments can't maintain them? Our nation's infrastructure is its lifeblood.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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BB, what's the alternative? Let bridges collapse because local governments can't maintain them? Our nation's infrastructure is its lifeblood.

Bridges, no. People die when that happens. I actually saw something the other day on Reddit that said our number of structurally compromised bridges is getting smaller every year.

The alternative is to empower local governments and make them ask if it will actually pay for itself.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
The War on Roads

we need Obama road-care

8y5ABu4.gif
 
C

Cackalacky

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I want all present civil engineers (looking at you cackalacky and Lax haha) to give me their thoughts on this guy, from what I see doing projects he seems to be right on the money:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sD47xo3c7WU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tn7aJ_Ti-co?list=PL4ZJBLI7Y9VoZKjBsjzwHJvjX4B4G_zJs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I am taking notes.....
 

pkt77242

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As much as I want to get money into the hands of working class people (ie stimulus), because I believe (as an amateur) in demand-side economics, I've seen too much in my daily job to think that a government program to solve infrastructure problems is going to solve anything. Likely, it will make it worse.

Today I worked on a one-mile road in a rather rural part of Lucas County, OH. They are getting a 20'-wide road paved and restabilized. There were ~20 houses on this road. It was not an arterial or collector road, it's actually rather out of the way considering it dead ends in both directions. The price tag for this project is, assuming no overruns, $318,435.20. Maybe I'm on acid, but I have a hard time believing the taxpayers on this stretch will come close to paying for that road over the next 25 years. It should have been tar and chipped. I see stuff like this on a daily basis.

Tax revenue goes to a larger government entity, and comes back via grant and no local engineer knows if their project is fiscally sustainable. At least not one I've met, as I've been road contracting for the last few years between undergrad and grad school.

Simply saying, we don't have feedback mechanisms to tell us if our infrastructure investments are justified. It's one of big government's biggest fuck ups of the post-World War II era. It's all about getting people to work and we don't stop to think if it makes sense long term.

Another round of massive infrastructure investment would likely put us further on the path towards fiscal implosion on a local level as the grants build infrastructure the local governments simply cannot maintain. I've gone back and looked at what a ton of asphalt cost the company fifteen years ago, $25, today it's $65. Do you think local governments are even remotely prepared for that in the long run? I doubt it.

I want all present civil engineers (looking at you cackalacky and Lax haha) to give me their thoughts on this guy, from what I see doing projects he seems to be right on the money:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sD47xo3c7WU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tn7aJ_Ti-co?list=PL4ZJBLI7Y9VoZKjBsjzwHJvjX4B4G_zJs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The problem though is we are ignoring all of our infrastructure even highly used roads/bridges. That portion of the I-10 averages over 20,000 cars a day, which includes a significant amount of semis. On a semi-related note it has always been ridiculous to me that the I-10 between Phoenix and LA is only 2 lanes each direction.
 

pkt77242

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I would be 1000% ok with a doctor making a slightly larger incision or keeping me under for a little longer if they payoff was preserving a tumor for study, which could theoretically lead to advancements in medicine that could save millions of people. This is not even a close call. I'd also want a doctor, should I ever be in a vegetative state, to do whatever possible to preserve my organs for donation and/or study. If this means killing me instead of taking me off life support and letting me die, that's fine. I could go on and on.... might as well salvage something in these situations.

You nailed it.
 

IrishLax

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As much as I want to get money into the hands of working class people (ie stimulus), because I believe (as an amateur) in demand-side economics, I've seen too much in my daily job to think that a government program to solve infrastructure problems is going to solve anything. Likely, it will make it worse.

Today I worked on a one-mile road in a rather rural part of Lucas County, OH. They are getting a 20'-wide road paved and restabilized. There were ~20 houses on this road. It was not an arterial or collector road, it's actually rather out of the way considering it dead ends in both directions. The price tag for this project is, assuming no overruns, $318,435.20. Maybe I'm on acid, but I have a hard time believing the taxpayers on this stretch will come close to paying for that road over the next 25 years. It should have been tar and chipped. I see stuff like this on a daily basis.

Tax revenue goes to a larger government entity, and comes back via grant and no local engineer knows if their project is fiscally sustainable. At least not one I've met, as I've been road contracting for the last few years between undergrad and grad school.

Simply saying, we don't have feedback mechanisms to tell us if our infrastructure investments are justified. It's one of big government's biggest fuck ups of the post-World War II era. It's all about getting people to work and we don't stop to think if it makes sense long term.

Another round of massive infrastructure investment would likely put us further on the path towards fiscal implosion on a local level as the grants build infrastructure the local governments simply cannot maintain. I've gone back and looked at what a ton of asphalt cost the company fifteen years ago, $25, today it's $65. Do you think local governments are even remotely prepared for that in the long run? I doubt it.

I want all present civil engineers (looking at you cackalacky and Lax haha) to give me their thoughts on this guy, from what I see doing projects he seems to be right on the money:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sD47xo3c7WU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tn7aJ_Ti-co?list=PL4ZJBLI7Y9VoZKjBsjzwHJvjX4B4G_zJs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'll watch these now.

EDIT: Oh holy shit this thing is 40+ minutes...
 
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phgreek

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I would be 1000% ok with a doctor making a slightly larger incision or keeping me under for a little longer if they payoff was preserving a tumor for study, which could theoretically lead to advancements in medicine that could save millions of people. This is not even a close call. I'd also want a doctor, should I ever be in a vegetative state, to do whatever possible to preserve my organs for donation and/or study. If this means killing me instead of taking me off life support and letting me die, that's fine. I could go on and on.... might as well salvage something in these situations.

Good for you. I was trying to make a point w/o going to far down the slippery slope, so to speak. Here is one that might make more sense. I had a procedure about 10 years ago, and the guy who did it noticed I had indications of a fatty liver...he put pressure on me to do a biopsy of my liver while he was in there using a new procedure...he was relentless. Turns out it was his stuff, his patent...you ok with that? Well I wasn't. Should I worry I pissed him off, and my "primary" care would suffer? See, at some point when we make byproducts or ancillaries to the procedure have value, we are headed down a slippery slope IMHO. Better just not to go there at all.
 
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Cackalacky

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I am taking notes.....

So the first video mentions the concept if the "Illusion of wealth". https://www.aei.org/publication/housing-wealth-and-illusion/. We tend to view things purchased with debt and also during bubbles as wealth. This is pretty erroneous yet it is the modus operandi of people, banks, businesses and governments. I also agree that if the community had to pay for things it probably would have a different design or utility but as a civil engineer I know that the choices made in developing land or redeveloping blighted areas can be agonizing trying to achieve the best end result. One of my biggest projects I worked on was redeveloping the former Charleston Naval Base. 300 acres waterfront operated by the Navy for just under 100 years. They turned it over to the city of North Charleston for free. The Navy paid to clean up the land to a certain level but not completely because some level of contamination is acceptable ($26 million dollar cleanup contract). I worked for 9 years developing plans to clean up the environmental waste, petroleum soaked soils, impacted groundwater, and chlorinated solvents from dry cleaners which only only get worse the longer they are present. I also inspected buildings to identify if they were suitable to occupy and if not plan their demolition. There were places that road designs had to be altered because of landfills discovered during construction. All of this is the result of poor planning and a short term vision without a cradle to grave approach and a strong master plan. The illusion is that at some point, we understand it will need to be fixed but have no idea how much or what will be involved to complete it. The first video is definitely correct there and it is one of my major issues with new developments.

The second video was excellent. I dont disagree with much of how he approached the topic. Its gross what money will be thrown out there for the sake of building something new instead of maintaining and improving the existing. Its my opinion and I think he said as much is that we are stretched far to thin because we view development as equaling wealth. Well it equals short term wealth for the developer and long term unsustainable costs to the public and governments. Its privatized gains and socialized losses. Thats it. Its a no win game for the taxpayers. But there is always some developer ready to put 20,000 units in a former Air Force Bombing range https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Forest,_South_Carolina and I never met a government that does'nt like an expanded tax base.

The new growth in less than a decade resulted in the need for basically a new school district,
which is already overcrowed and brand new six lane arterial roads that are already at a service level of C. This additional traffic has also dropped the main road for beach traffic to a service level of D.

I guess a counterpoint to this is that if communities had to pay in totality for their civil projects, everything would be/could be non-homogenous and unstandardized because obviously certain communites would not have the income to do things properly. The consequences of this scenario are pretty evident and would result in disjointed and disparate communties much like the overzealous suburban expansioism. I really think communities need to have very strong master plans and a cradle to grave approach. The developers wont like that and neither will the politicians
.
Yes our current way of doing things is completely unsustainable and everyone likes to make jokes about it but basically whole cities will be cut off from each other or abandoned as the infrastructure becomes defunct with out a plan.

I would like a plan where the public gets the gains and minimizes their losses through proper planning and use of resources. The system just isnt set up that way.

I will say that our public works system has got it going on:
Charleston Water System bonds get top triple-A rating from Moody’s - Post and Courier
 
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Bluto

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So the first video mentions the concept if the "Illusion of wealth". https://www.aei.org/publication/housing-wealth-and-illusion/. We tend to view things purchased with debt and also during bubbles as wealth. This is pretty erroneous yet it is the modus operandi of people, banks, businesses and governments. I also agree that if the community had to pay for things it probably would have a different design or utility but as a civil engineer I know that the choices made in developing land or redeveloping blighted areas can be agonizing trying to achieve the best end result. One of my biggest projects I worked on was redeveloping the former Charleston Naval Base. 300 acres waterfront operated by the Navy for just under 100 years. They turned it over to the city of North Charleston for free. The Navy paid to clean up the land to a certain level but not completely because some level of contamination is acceptable ($26 million dollar cleanup contract). I worked for 9 years developing plans to clean up the environmental waste, petroleum soaked soils, impacted groundwater, and chlorinated solvents from dry cleaners which only only get worse the longer they are present. I also inspected buildings to identify if they were suitable to occupy and if not plan their demolition. There were places that road designs had to be altered because of landfills discovered during construction. All of this is the result of poor planning and a short term vision without a cradle to grave approach and a strong master plan. The illusion is that at some point, we understand it will need to be fixed but have no idea how much or what will be involved to complete it.

The second video was excellent. I dont disagree with much of how he approached the topic. Its gross what money will be thrown out there for the sake of building something new instead of maintaining and improving the existing. Its my opinion and I think he said as much is that we are stretched far to thin because we view development as equaling wealth. Well it equals short term wealth for the developer and long term unsustainable costs to the public and governments. Its privatized gains and socialized losses. Thats it. Its a no win game for the taxpayers. But there is always some developer ready to put 20,000 units in a former Air Force Bombing range https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Forest,_South_Carolina and I never met a government that does'nt like an expanded tax base.

The new growth in less than a decade resulted in the need for basically a new school district,
which is already overcrowed and brand new six lane arterial roads that are already at a service level of C. This additional traffic has also dropped the main road for beach traffic to a service level of D.

Yes our current way of doing things is completely unsustainable and everyone likes to make jokes about it but basically whole cities will be cut off from each other or abandoned as the infrastructure becomes defunct with out a plan.

I would like a plan where the public gets the gains and minimizes their losses through proper planning and use of resources. The system just isnt set up that way.

I will say that our public works system has got it going on:
Charleston Water System bonds get top triple-A rating from Moody’s - Post and Courier

Great post.
 

GoldenDome

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We can make Congress start paying for their wars instead of the middle-class carrying the burden.

#FeelTheBern
 

IrishLax

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Alright Buster...

So I know you're a big Urbanist. And I understand that viewpoint, and nothing that guy said is wrong.

For starters, let me say that my degree is in Civil Engineering with a concentration in Structural Engineering. I currently work for the #1 structural firm in the DC area, and the division that I work in is Repair and Restoration. I have my EIT license and will (hopefully) have my PE license + stamp in 3 months. Also, my dad is developer, and my mom is structural engineer. I have been on job sites and involved in the "industry" pretty much my entire life.

First things first, the major objection I have to Urbanist ideology is that the Interstate Highway System is/was somehow a bad idea. It wasn't and is/was a direct facilitator to all American prosperity. Much like the US Post Office, it doesn't matter that the Interstate Highway System "loses" money... it's a public "utility" of sorts, not a profit driven corporation. All Government programs tend to "lose" money... whether its welfare, social security, our national park system, etc. So I totally do not understand how anyone says that was a mistake.

I also disagree with a lot of his overarching philosophical/economic points... but let's talk specifically about suburban development and the current state of affairs for many small towns/cities... because that's the main point of that video, and I don't want to type pages here. This best captures my opinion:
ac43fbeddc17af35f665ea203951ea6c97e2ce349ce76eed1b8055bed2debbcc.jpg


Even among large cities, there can be stark contrast between those that were built "vertical" and those that were built "horizontal"... and generally, I think DC (and "attached" cities of Arlington, Bethesda, Silver Spring, etc.) did a very good job of trending enough towards vertical to have solid population density without turning into a stinking shithole like NYC.

At my current job, I do the vast majority of my work for commercial entities or resident owned large multi-family dwellings (i.e. condo boards), but also some municipal work for the DC and Baltimore governments. It is baffling to me that I can work with a condo that doesn't blink an eye at a $10 million garage repair program, and a fucking TOWN can't pay a measly $300k pipe repair bill. This leads me to believe that in many of his examples the problem relies even more with the people running the town than it does with the concept of suburban development. If you want to see a suburb done right, look at how Reston was developed over the past 50 years. It basically went from farmland->to expertly planned suburban community with town center->urbanized+vertically developed commercial center with thriving economy. This isn't the "illusion" of wealth that he talks about... it's actual, realized + sustainable wealth.

Here are my rules of thumb on development:
1. Always go mixed use, if possible.
2. NEVER EVER BUILD A PARKING LOT. It's cheap up front, but it fucks you in the long run. Allow for some street parking, and then if necessary build a singular parking facility to service many buildings. It's best if this is subterranean below the footprint of the building... but a standalone facility can also work in some cases.
3. If you're an urban planner building a "highway," make it a toll road with the correct toll amounts and it pays for its own repairs as long as you collect tolls. Otherwise, it is a cash pit that you cannot afford.
4. When redeveloping, always develop vertically. My current neighborhood of Roslyn in Arlington has done an excellent job of this over the past 5 years.
5. You are almost always better off refurbishing/revitalizing an existing building than doing a tear down. This is what I specialize in and it's fiscally responsible + low risk. But many developers/brokers/politicians are blind to this.

What I'm disappointed about in that 40 minute video is that he only hit on half of the "why does this problem exist?" Sure, cars are the devil or whatever. But the real problem is politicians... politicians like tangible things to point at and say "see! I built that!" It's proven political science that pork = wins. You have to bring home the bacon. So politicians continuously support legislation/development that either isn't practical or affordable because on the surface it looks good. Stadiums are the biggest racket of them all, but until recently when the public started getting educated they were shown to have an extremely strong positive correlation with vote attitudes... and letting a sports franchise leave town was sure to put your ass on the line with angry fans. Same thing applies with basically all suburban sprawl... you're either growing or dying. And no one wants a "dying" town on their watch as a politician.

Without a doubt the most eye-roll inducing part of that video is when the enlightened fellow talks about how 5 acres in the woods would be the "perfect place to raise a family" and then immediately follows it with "and she didn't even get to know her best friend across the street because #SuburbanIsolation" when he had to make a conscious, elective choice to build that isolated house on 5 acres. So he's blaming the "system" while being entirely complicit in the problem. The truth is that suburban expansion happened because it's human nature not to want to raise a family in a crowded, dangerous city and automobiles + roads enabled this for non-farmers in a way that hadn't existed pre-WWII. That's not a bad thing in and of itself... no, the problem is that dumb people and predatory developers took it too far, too fast and did it irresponsibly.
 
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C

Cackalacky

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Im thinking Lax and I are saying similar things from different perspectives with big exception that I liked the videos and he didnt. Lol

:)
 

IrishLax

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Two revitalization projects people might be interested in... I think these perfectly capture what is responsible urban re-development:

First, this project actually barely edged out one of mine for the International Concrete Institute Project of the Year. In Baltimore there was an old decrepit condemned building that had more or less turned into a drug den... and they redeveloped into a school, saving the structure.

Second, this is a project I'm currently working on that I was certain was going to be an award winner (but then there was a fuck up). A number of people were interested in purchasing the property and tearing down the building because of its prime location on the Potomac river in DC and so close to the Kennedy center. It would make a fantastic condo or office building. But DC/CFA/NRHP protects the Watergate Complex as a historic place, and would not let them happen. Finally, the building was purchased and we've been working on revitalizing it as a hotel.
 

phgreek

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Two revitalization projects people might be interested in... I think these perfectly capture what is responsible urban re-development:

First, this project actually barely edged out one of mine for the International Concrete Institute Project of the Year. In Baltimore there was an old decrepit condemned building that had more or less turned into a drug den... and they redeveloped into a school, saving the structure.

Second, this is a project I'm currently working on that I was certain was going to be an award winner (but then there was a fuck up). A number of people were interested in purchasing the property and tearing down the building because of its prime location on the Potomac river in DC and so close to the Kennedy center. It would make a fantastic condo or office building. But DC/CFA/NRHP protects the Watergate Complex as a historic place, and would not let them happen. Finally, the building was purchased and we've been working on revitalizing it as a hotel.

as crazy as it sounds...that area could use some more hotels. There were two times over the last 20 years my partner and I bought a boat, and paid slip fees so we could have a short notice place to sleep and work in DC...boat was fun too...when I was a younger man...:).
 
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