Offensive Line Thread

IRISHDODGER

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And they loaded the box. That tipped the scale to their favor. And with Patterson out, not enough to stalemate at the moment
Even Freeman noted that if missing Patterson was going to make that big of a difference on the OL performance, then they have bigger troubles than previously thought.

Most, not all; predicted ND would run the ball successfully vs OSU based on last year’s performance. Even Ryan Day was quoted in his postgame presser as saying that this was a game that they lose last year.

So a new DC & OL Coach make an instant impact on OSU to the point where it erases any issues they had last season but ND’s new OL Coach (despite all that talent) has the fan base continually bitching about the OL like Quinn is still there?

I’d be interested in seeing how many times ND tried to run between the tackles…even w/ a loaded box. When a team commits to the run, like it or not; they are going to have plenty of run stuffs for no gains or losses along the way. But you don’t quit on the run…you COMMIT to it. Especially when you have inexperienced QB & WR corps.
 

BobbyMac

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They are both absolutely NOT well over 300 pounds.

That is made painfully apparent by just seeing them in action.

I've heard multiple reports, including ISD, essentially calling bullshit on Correll's listed weight of 308. I'd be surprised if he was 298.

Same with Kristofic. He's listed at 300 exactly, so he's probably just under that.

Correll's problems aren't being 6-3 or 6-2 or him being 298 or 308. There are smaller centers in the NFL.
 

Sea Turtle

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Correll's problems aren't being 6-3 or 6-2 or him being 298 or 308. There are smaller centers in the NFL.
Exactly. He's plenty big enough. Needs coaching, s&c and attitude.
When Ohio state needed to, they ran the ball right down our throats. Thats just one of the differences between us and the big boys.
 

Jimmy3Putt

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Exactly. He's plenty big enough. Needs coaching, s&c and attitude.
When Ohio state needed to, they ran the ball right down our throats. Thats just one of the differences between us and the big boys.

Ohio State ran the ball down our throats because they spread us out. We had to honor their skill out wide.
We chose to keep everything tight letting them stack the box.
That and our defense wearing out late is why they were successful.
 

irishff1014

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Even Freeman noted that if missing Patterson was going to make that big of a difference on the OL performance, then they have bigger troubles than previously thought.

Most, not all; predicted ND would run the ball successfully vs OSU based on last year’s performance. Even Ryan Day was quoted in his postgame presser as saying that this was a game that they lose last year.

So a new DC & OL Coach make an instant impact on OSU to the point where it erases any issues they had last season but ND’s new OL Coach (despite all that talent) has the fan base continually bitching about the OL like Quinn is still there?

I’d be interested in seeing how many times ND tried to run between the tackles…even w/ a loaded box. When a team commits to the run, like it or not; they are going to have plenty of run stuffs for no gains or losses along the way. But you don’t quit on the run…you COMMIT to it. Especially when you have inexperienced QB & WR corps.

So a brand new coach can make OSU’s line better but our coach that knows someone these players and familiar with our offense can’t. Awesome. And don’t tell me they didn’t know Patterson wasn’t a go. If not we need a better trainer.
 

Crazy Balki

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Correll's problems aren't being 6-3 or 6-2 or him being 298 or 308. There are smaller centers in the NFL.
There are smaller centers, but they possess immense strength and quick feet to make up for their lack of size.

Correll doesn't seem to possess either. He either gets beat to the punch or gets manhandled by stronger, bigger DL. Tyler Linderbaum is a perfect example of this. He's about Correll's size, but is WAY stronger, WAY faster and WAY more technically proficient and athletic.

So yes, it's a problem. Correll would be able to overcome it by having elite footwork, great burst and core strength. It's no different than any position. The bigger you are, the more margin for error you're afforded. It's easier for a 6'5 315 pound linemen to physically handle a DL matchup than it is somebody who's 6'3 298.
 

BobbyMac

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There are smaller centers, but they possess immense strength and quick feet to make up for their lack of size.

Correll doesn't seem to possess either. He either gets beat to the punch or gets manhandled by stronger, bigger DL. Tyler Linderbaum is a perfect example of this. He's about Correll's size, but is WAY stronger, WAY faster and WAY more technically proficient and athletic.

So yes, it's a problem. Correll would be able to overcome it by having elite footwork, great burst and core strength. It's no different than any position. The bigger you are, the more margin for error you're afforded. It's easier for a 6'5 315 pound linemen to physically handle a DL matchup than it is somebody who's 6'3 298.

Fast doesn't make him good. I'll show you one of the most athletic plays you've ever seen an interior lineman make of his. Speed means nothing. Quickness & skill matter. I'd need a link to see where someone was complaining about his strength or lack there of.

And if he was 6-5/315, he wouldn't be quick enough or he'd be too stiff or whatever the flip side of all of his current shortcomings are.

Letting Gibbons go turned out to be a mistake
 

Crazy Balki

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Fast doesn't make him good. I'll show you one of the most athletic plays you've ever seen an interior lineman make of his. Speed means nothing. Quickness & skill matter. I'd need a link to see where someone was complaining about his strength or lack there of.

And if he was 6-5/315, he wouldn't be quick enough or he'd be too stiff or whatever the flip side of all of his current shortcomings are.

Letting Gibbons go turned out to be a mistake
Correll isn't quick enough as is. But if he was 6'5 315 with the same quickness, he'd have a slimmer margin for error.

Problem is that Correll doesn't possess the quickness or strength or skill to overcome his lack of size. Quickness (which is what I meant when stating Linderbaum is faster) and skill were clearly issues all night, as Correll missed several key assignments and was too slow or physically handled repeatedly by Ohio State's interior DL, even in 1 on 1 situations.

Even though I'm down on Correll and Lugg, I'm also reserving judgment on Gibbons. Ohio State is CLEARLY a much better defense than LSU after watching them both play, and LSU was already down some key players in their front 7, which made Gibbons' job significantly easier than Correll or Lugg's.
 

BilboBaggins

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Even Freeman noted that if missing Patterson was going to make that big of a difference on the OL performance, then they have bigger troubles than previously thought.

Most, not all; predicted ND would run the ball successfully vs OSU based on last year’s performance. Even Ryan Day was quoted in his postgame presser as saying that this was a game that they lose last year.

So a new DC & OL Coach make an instant impact on OSU to the point where it erases any issues they had last season but ND’s new OL Coach (despite all that talent) has the fan base continually bitching about the OL like Quinn is still there?

I’d be interested in seeing how many times ND tried to run between the tackles…even w/ a loaded box. When a team commits to the run, like it or not; they are going to have plenty of run stuffs for no gains or losses along the way. But you don’t quit on the run…you COMMIT to it. Especially when you have inexperienced QB & WR corps.
ND fans should have known that interior running against OSU's DL was going to be pretty tough. I tried to say as much and was ridiculed. This hasn't been a program that has been able to "assert their will" against an elite DL for a long time. To be repetitive, ND has been on an incredible run for the last few years but the trouble starts when they play teams with long/athletic CBs and specifically NGs/DTs who will control the inside. Going back to struggles against USC and Clemson in the first playoff run, it was the same struggle.

I think you're making a false equivalence argument. OSU has guys who were top ten nationally. Notre Dame has highly touted four-stars. Should ND be better one-on-one? Not according to the talent difference. This was made worse by the fact that ND has a very pedestrian WR corp and, as you said, OSU was going to stack the box.

I think running right into a stacked box and expecting things to change fits the definition of insanity. OSU figured out that ND's WR corp was going to do exactly nothing all game and in the second half just sat in the box. I wouldn't want Rees running dives and ISOs into that. The way you win is by putting your all-American TE in a CB mismatch, running outside with Tyree--all things Rees called but they didn't execute.

The good news is the OL will almost certainly gel and improve, as will the passing game. I agree with Goolsby that they should just put the younger guys in who have higher ceilings, because if you're going to be coaching for dramatic improvement, you might as well put in the underclassmen and coach them up.

All teams change throughout the season. Some get better, some get exposed as they can't adapt to what opponents see on film. That is the mark of a good staff. That is where fans should expect Heisman, Rees, Freeman, etc etc to make their mark.
 

IrishLax

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Correll isn't quick enough as is. But if he was 6'5 315 with the same quickness, he'd have a slimmer margin for error.

Problem is that Correll doesn't possess the quickness or strength or skill to overcome his lack of size. Quickness (which is what I meant when stating Linderbaum is faster) and skill were clearly issues all night, as Correll missed several key assignments and was too slow or physically handled repeatedly by Ohio State's interior DL, even in 1 on 1 situations.

Even though I'm down on Correll and Lugg, I'm also reserving judgment on Gibbons. Ohio State is CLEARLY a much better defense than LSU after watching them both play, and LSU was already down some key players in their front 7, which made Gibbons' job significantly easier than Correll or Lugg's.
Pretty spot on. The play that really stuck out to me was one where an Ohio State DT started going to his left then saw that Buchner was going to the other gap -> ran directly across his face -> and Correll basically didn’t lay a hand on him. Certainly didn’t impact his motion at all.

I don’t care how big you are, someone like Kyren Williams absolutely would’ve at minimum made contact and knocked him off his line of pursuit. What concerns me is that somehow the eval by HH was that Correll was one of the best five, and that can’t possibly be true. They really need to move on to true frosh and RS frosh and see who wants to step up. It’s virtually impossible to do worse than our IOL did in that game, and the only guy who has earned more latitude is probably Kristofic.
 

Crazy Balki

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Pretty spot on. The play that really stuck out to me was one where an Ohio State DT started going to his left then saw that Buchner was going to the other gap -> ran directly across his face -> and Correll basically didn’t lay a hand on him. Certainly didn’t impact his motion at all.

I don’t care how big you are, someone like Kyren Williams absolutely would’ve at minimum made contact and knocked him off his line of pursuit. What concerns me is that somehow the eval by HH was that Correll was one of the best five, and that can’t possibly be true. They really need to move on to true frosh and RS frosh and see who wants to step up. It’s virtually impossible to do worse than our IOL did in that game, and the only guy who has earned more latitude is probably Kristofic.
Couldn't agree more.

IMO, Lugg should sit for Spindler. The whole point of starting Lugg is for the experience that SHOULD yield assignment sound football. We didn't get that. Lugg was not only physically exposed, he made several miscues despite his experience.

For now, I'd say they have to stick with Correll until Patterson is healthy, and then you move Patterson back to center and just roll with an interior of Kristofic, Patterson and Spindler. I don't think that's going to be a world-beater, but it's impossible to be worse than what we had on Saturday.

And frankly, if the staff can't see that after watching the film, that's a major indictment on their evaluation and I'll be concerned. Bare minimum, Lugg CANNOT start against Marshall. You are intentionally lowering your ceiling for virtually zero benefit.
 

IRISHDODGER

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ND fans should have known that interior running against OSU's DL was going to be pretty tough. I tried to say as much and was ridiculed. This hasn't been a program that has been able to "assert their will" against an elite DL for a long time. To be repetitive, ND has been on an incredible run for the last few years but the trouble starts when they play teams with long/athletic CBs and specifically NGs/DTs who will control the inside. Going back to struggles against USC and Clemson in the first playoff run, it was the same struggle.

I think you're making a false equivalence argument. OSU has guys who were top ten nationally. Notre Dame has highly touted four-stars. Should ND be better one-on-one? Not according to the talent difference. This was made worse by the fact that ND has a very pedestrian WR corp and, as you said, OSU was going to stack the box.

I think running right into a stacked box and expecting things to change fits the definition of insanity. OSU figured out that ND's WR corp was going to do exactly nothing all game and in the second half just sat in the box. I wouldn't want Rees running dives and ISOs into that. The way you win is by putting your all-American TE in a CB mismatch, running outside with Tyree--all things Rees called but they didn't execute.

The good news is the OL will almost certainly gel and improve, as will the passing game. I agree with Goolsby that they should just put the younger guys in who have higher ceilings, because if you're going to be coaching for dramatic improvement, you might as well put in the underclassmen and coach them up.

All teams change throughout the season. Some get better, some get exposed as they can't adapt to what opponents see on film. That is the mark of a good staff. That is where fans should expect Heisman, Rees, Freeman, etc etc to make their mark.
No you are correct. But what was the narrative leading up to this game? ND’s OL w/ Heistand back in command should be able to open holes against a highly rated yet underperforming OSU front that got gashed by Oregon, Minnesota, Nebraska & Michigan last season.

As you said, if you pointed out what you did (correctly) before the game, you were ridiculed as a lesser ND fan who is too negative to support the team. I think we all agree that relentless negativism is cringe worthy but at least be realistic vs Pollyanna.
 

Sea Turtle

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Not sure why a supposed Nd fan has basically spent the better part of the last two days on a Nd message board basically gloating about their shortcomings.
It's not gloating. People now want to act like our o line is small and how great Ohio States d line is. That our only strength is now a weakness. I'm not buying it. And neither is Freeman. Patterson being out should not destroy the entire iol.

It seems to me that our o line is pretty darn big, talented and ranked number 1 prior to Saturday night. Maybe these teams are on steroids and we need to follow suit because it's eye opening what happens to our ol in these games.

This happens every time these games occur. Ok, they stacked the box. Miami, FSU, Michigan, USC, etc. stacked the box with 9 guys against Holtz's o lines. They ran all day. Had all day to throw. We had one great running back and one great flanker post 1987.
 

irishtrain

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You cant run against a team that doesnt play your pass offense with respect too many people to block this line is a good one but they are hung out to dry with no passing game
 

Crazy Balki

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It's not gloating. People now want to act like our o line is small and how great Ohio States d line is. That our only strength is now a weakness. I'm not buying it. And neither is Freeman. Patterson being out should not destroy the entire iol.

It seems to me that our o line is pretty darn big, talented and ranked number 1 prior to Saturday night. Maybe these teams are on steroids and we need to follow suit because it's eye opening what happens to our ol in these games.

This happens every time these games occur. Ok, they stacked the box. Miami, FSU, Michigan, USC, etc. stacked the box with 9 guys against Holtz's o lines. They ran all day. Had all day to throw. We had one great running back and one great flanker post 1987.
The interior IS small and are a weakness. This isn't opinion. This was made factual by what we saw on Saturday.

Correll was physically manhandled, and Lugg doesn't possess the athletic ability to do anything outside of lock onto 1 man, which does us no good when defenses decide to stunt and shift players across the front. Lugg was easily fooled over and over again, which is f*cking unacceptable for a 6th year guy.

Kristofic is also about 6'5 and MAYBE 300. So all three guys inside are either too small or not good enough athletically to hold up.

Now, Patterson returning to the starting lineup helps that immensely for sure. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that Correll and Lugg are still weak links. The notion that Kristofic is the odd man out in this situation is ludicrous, because despite not playing well, he was FAR better than Lugg or Correll, thus should deserve the chance to continue starting over those two, who by all accounts were abysmal.
 

StPaul_Irish

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Alt - Kristofic - Patterson - ? - Fisher

? - Rocco, Carmody, Lugg, Baker...........................
 

StPaul_Irish

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Also, that hand signal to start the snap, has anyone ever seen another team do that? Isn't it giving away the snap/count?

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think I have ever seen another team use that. We did it last year too, so it's not a HH or JQ thing, maybe its a Tommy thing.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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WTH Correll?!?


It literally says in the video that there's a chance that Audric ran the wrong play and may have been responsible.
But yes, with that said, Correll should have quickly seen he had no-one and should have twisted back left (even though it'd likely still be too late).
 

Plankton

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Also, that hand signal to start the snap, has anyone ever seen another team do that? Isn't it giving away the snap/count?

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think I have ever seen another team use that. We did it last year too, so it's not a HH or JQ thing, maybe its a Tommy thing.

Every team, even in the NFL, does something of this sort. Zack Martin does it with the Cowboys week after week.
 

Dale

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No real dog in the fight but this feels like trying to fit a square into a circle of an argument. Pretty useless “perspective”.
 

ThePiombino

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Does anyone know if there was an agreement made with Patterson in which, in exchange for his forgoing the draft, he would exclusively play guard? I need to know there is something in the way of him playing center at this point. Seems the best thing for the unit would be to put your ALL-AMERICAN center back at center, continue to play Kristofic at LG and bring in one of the young guns to play RG (Spindler I assume would get 1st shot). Zeke clearly doesn't have it and I'm fucking tired of seeing Lugg be dead weight on this line.
 
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