Notre Dame to consider starting it's own football league.

[GATTACA!]

Idk if this was brought up anywhere else, but according to Father Jenkins in the NYT yesterday, if colleges begin paying players Notre Dame may start it's own football league.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/1...ifts-in-college-athletics.html?referrer=&_r=0

Does anyone think things actually feasible? I think for this to even stand a chance the NFL will have to have some sort of minor league already established.

 

[Cali_domer]

Idk if this was brought up anywhere else, but according to Father Jenkins in the NYT yesterday, if colleges begin paying players Notre Dame may start it's own football league.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/1...ifts-in-college-athletics.html?referrer=&_r=0

Does anyone think things actually feasible? I think for this to even stand a chance the NFL will have to have some sort of minor league already established.

I think it is feasible, but unlikely it will get to this though.
I think that we will maintain some sort of amateurism and ND will carry on.

 

[wizards8507]

Depends who we can get. We'd need USC at least. Probably Miami. If we could get all of the private FBS schools into one league, that'd be a damn good league.

Boston College
Rice
Stanford
Duke
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Miami
Notre Dame
USC
Wake Forest
Tulane
TCU
Tulsa
Baylor
SMU
BYU
Northwestern

Throw Army, Navy, and Air Force in there. Twenty teams, two round robin divisions with a conference championship. I'd be all over that.

 

[BGIF]

Depends who we can get. We'd need USC at least. Probably Miami. If we could get all of the private FBS schools into one league, that'd be a damn good league.

Boston College
Rice
Stanford
Duke
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Miami
Notre Dame
USC
Wake Forest
Tulane
TCU
Tulsa
Baylor
SMU
BYU
Northwestern

Throw Army, Navy, and Air Force in there. Twenty teams, two round robin divisions with a conference championship. I'd be all over that.

Looking at that there are some with a history of paying their players. Why would they walk away from doing it legally?

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Idk if this was brought up anywhere else, but according to Father Jenkins in the NYT yesterday, if colleges begin paying players Notre Dame may start it's own football league.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/1...ifts-in-college-athletics.html?referrer=&_r=0

Does anyone think things actually feasible? I think for this to even stand a chance the NFL will have to have some sort of minor league already established.

*Thinks about the recruiting*
*shivers*

 

[Section20Row27]

Fr. Jenkins supports paying players complete academic monetary needs. I take that as tuition, room and board, clothing. He does not support paying players for on field performance. I totally agree with that. That is why I love college football. the same players students see on the field are the same players they see and interact with in the classroom.

If you want to support semi-pro football, then start watching and supporting semi-pro now....

 

[koonja]

Paying players is overall a bad idea. The thing College has against pro is enthusiasm and passion. Further segregate students from the athletes, and you'll slowly lose that. If they start professionalizing players, you'll have the NFL with a poorer product.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Why would anyone not want these kids to get paid? Should they be getting million dollar contracts? No. But they should be compensated for their work, which generates tons of money for their universities, coaches and business partners, at least at a level that affords them to live with some comfortability commensurate with what they are providing their communities.

 

[wizards8507]

Looking at that there are some with a history of paying their players. Why would they walk away from doing it legally?

Because it's only an advantage if you're the only ones doing it. Nobody paying players is an equal playing field. Everybody paying players is an equal playing field. Nobody paying players except for a dishonest few is an advantage for the dishonest few.

Why would anyone not want these kids to get paid? Should they be getting million dollar contracts? No. But they should be compensated for their work, which generates tons of money for their universities, coaches and business partners, at least at a level that affords them to live with some comfortability commensurate with what they are providing their communities.

Because it's not work by any definition of work. It's recreation. Yes, it's a huge time commitment and requires skill and effort, but so do collegiate swimming, recreational rock climbing, and marching band. I support players being able to go make money on their own. If Sheldon Day wants to make Subway commercials, go get paid big fella. But it shouldn't come from the Universities. Collegiate athletics are not employment, they're recreation.

 

[MNIrishman]

Why would anyone not want these kids to get paid? Should they be getting million dollar contracts? No. But they should be compensated for their work, which generates tons of money for their universities, coaches and business partners, at least at a level that affords them to live with some comfortability commensurate with what they are providing their communities.

They are offered a deal---education, room, board, publicity, free training by elite coaches---and in turn they don't receive a direct salary. They accepted that deal. I would accept that deal.

For every player bringing in money, there's an Ishaq Williams (or insert other player here) who rides the pine. He doesn't lose his scholarship due to his athletic performance. The University loses money on that deal.

No one watches college for the players. The NFL's players are a lot better. They watch it because of the passion, the history, and connection to the school. As long as the teams are equally competitive, that's how it will always be. Colleges make these kids famous and give them a platform, not the other way around.

What the heck ever happened to being grateful for an opportunity?

 

[OchoShayneO]

Kristi Dosh wrote a book called Saturday Millionaires that I would recommend to anyone who is really interested in learning about this topic. She used data from UF from 2004 as far as what these kids actually make. Considering the cost of room and board/tuition, books, and the maximum amount of time they are allowed to practice with their coaches the hourly break down for an out of state kid was something like $80 an hour. That's before you consider the access they have to facilities, athletic training staff, doctors, and pell grants. I don't see how you can argue they aren't already getting compensated fairly.

 

[GATTACA!]

Why would anyone not want these kids to get paid? Should they be getting million dollar contracts? No. But they should be compensated for their work, which generates tons of money for their universities, coaches and business partners, at least at a level that affords them to live with some comfortability commensurate with what they are providing their communities.

I agree. They should be payed like any other work study position at the school. Pay it by the hour they work for the school. Since these students already have scholarships the work study money can't go directly to tuition like normal, so it should go into a personal account that can be used on whatever the players want.

This system would also keep bigger programs from getting an unfair advantage by being able to pay more. There would be guidelines for what players can make per hour regardless of the school.

 

[GoldenDome]

Paying players is overall a bad idea. The thing College has against pro is enthusiasm and passion. Further segregate students from the athletes, and you'll slowly lose that. If they start professionalizing players, you'll have the NFL with a poorer product.

Paying them a salary yes I disagree, they should only receive a stipend. But they should be able to market themselves and profit off of their likeness. And fuck the NFL, why should CFB worry about them when they are too cheap to set up a developmental league like the NBA and MLB.

 

[wizards8507]

I agree. They should be payed like any other work study position at the school. Pay it by the hour they work for the school. Since these students already have scholarships the work study money can't go directly to tuition like normal, so it should go into a personal account that can be used on whatever the players want.

This system would also keep bigger programs from getting an unfair advantage by being able to pay more. There would be guidelines for what players can make per hour regardless of the school.

Except the kids who do work study are paying their own tuition. You want to pay players for their hourly "labor"? Fine, then mail their parents a $30,000 bill every semester.

It's embarrassing that this is even a conversation for Notre Dame fans.

 

[Corry]

No one watches college for the players.

I agree with everything you've said, but the above. While for the most part its the helmet not the name on the back, there are a few players every year that move the needle. Those are the players that are hosed the most in the current format. In no other industry is it ok for you to be the best in world in your field and work for free. Universities treat these kids like unpaid interns, and that's BS.

 

[wizards8507]

I agree with everything you've said, but the above. While for the most part its the helmet not the name on the back, there are a few players every year that move the needle. Those are the players that are hosed the most in the current format. In no other industry is it ok for you to be the best in world in your field and work for free. Universities treat these kids like unpaid interns, and that's BS.

Except it's not an industry, it's not work, and they're not interns. It's a university, it's recreation, and they're students.

 

[GoldenDome]

Except it's not an industry, it's not work, and they're not interns. It's a university, it's recreation, and they're students.

What recreation uses consulting firms to hire $5 million coaches and also negotiates for billions in TV revenue contracts?

Almost everything about CFB and CBB is professional, except the kids can't take money.

It is complete hypocrisy for NCAA and Universities to tell players not take money when they themselves are profiting off these kids. "hey, don't take money, but we are going to market the shit out of you in the mean time."

 

[wizards8507]

It is complete hypocrisy for NCAA and Universities to tell players not take money when they themselves are profiting off these kids. "hey, don't take money, but we are going to market the shit out of you in the mean time."

I agree and disagree.

Yes, players should be able to make money by making commercials or whatever else. I think it's idiotic that EA Sports made in-game players that looked and performed like real-life student-athletes, for example. That's clearly illegitimate use of a player's image and likeness.

But it's incorrect that the schools are making money off of the players. Every single college football program could field a team full of walk-ons who are paying real tuition to attend their universities and people would still watch. People would still buy an EA Sports video game regardless of whether the Notre Dame middle linebacker was Jaylon Smith or a white guy named Kyle Jones.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Because it's not work by any definition of work. It's recreation. Yes, it's a huge time commitment and requires skill and effort, but so do collegiate swimming, recreational rock climbing, and marching band. I support players being able to go make money on their own. If Sheldon Day wants to make Subway commercials, go get paid big fella. But it shouldn't come from the Universities. Collegiate athletics are not employment, they're recreation.

Why is it recreation for the player and not for the coach? The player is generating revenue with his efforts. Calling that "recreation" is disingenuous. If a college swim team or marching band makes money, then they should share that with the swimmers and band members. If they don't make money off it, then it is recreation. You have a ton of old people who aren't doing the actual marketable thing that people are paying for drawing huge salaries, but the people making the biggest contributions don't deserve anything?

They are offered a deal---education, room, board, publicity, free training by elite coaches---and in turn they don't receive a direct salary. They accepted that deal. I would accept that deal.

For every player bringing in money, there's an Ishaq Williams (or insert other player here) who rides the pine. He doesn't lose his scholarship due to his athletic performance. The University loses money on that deal.

No one watches college for the players. The NFL's players are a lot better. They watch it because of the passion, the history, and connection to the school. As long as the teams are equally competitive, that's how it will always be. Colleges make these kids famous and give them a platform, not the other way around.

What the heck ever happened to being grateful for an opportunity?

This argument is the closest one to being acceptable to me, but again, I am not arguing that these kids should be getting big signing bonuses and 6 or 7 figure salaries. Just give the kids something for the time they are putting in (which is generating revenue for the schools). Sure, the opportunity for an education is a nice perk, but why do the kids need to take a vow of poverty? They aren't training to be monks.

Kristi Dosh wrote a book called Saturday Millionaires that I would recommend to anyone who is really interested in learning about this topic. She used data from UF from 2004 as far as what these kids actually make. Considering the cost of room and board/tuition, books, and the maximum amount of time they are allowed to practice with their coaches the hourly break down for an out of state kid was something like $80 an hour. That's before you consider the access they have to facilities, athletic training staff, doctors, and pell grants. I don't see how you can argue they aren't already getting compensated fairly.

First of all, if they are basing the calculation on the max practice time allowed with coaches (the "20/8 rule"), then they are underestimating the time investment by about 250%. Second of all, the value of the education they are getting in return varies greatly, so you'd end up with a pretty big range and the "average" would be pretty tough to pin down and basically meaningless. And access to athletic facilities and medical and training staffs doesn't really persuade me, since it isn't like that is a huge privilege - it is a responsibility for an athlete. They wouldn't be using those things if they weren't athletes.


I continue to be amazed that people are soooo invested in and committed to the idea that kids shouldn't be given anything for their time and efforts. What is it to you, really? Some antiquated ideal about "true amateurism"? Just seems silly to me that anyone would be on the side of anyone not getting paid for their service.

 

[Irish Insanity]

What recreation uses consulting firms to hire $5 million coaches and also negotiates for billions in TV revenue contracts?

Almost everything about CFB and CBB is professional, except the kids can't take money.

It is complete hypocrisy for NCAA and Universities to tell players not take money when they themselves are profiting off these kids. "hey, don't take money, but we are going to market the shit out of you in the mean time."

The coaches are basically teachers, no? We pay teachers at every level of education, we don't pay the students.

 

[GATTACA!]

Except it's not an industry, it's not work, and they're not interns. It's a university, it's recreation, and they're students.

Keep telling yourself that.

The players are making the institutions hundreds of millions of dollars. Their "work" is what allows all the other recreational sports to survive. They are being paid with a scholarship. If you think that is fair compensation that's your prerogative but to feign that this is recreational and the same as a fraternity flag football game is ignorant.

I understand that the players are being paid with a scholarship, but IMO that isn't fair compensation. While it is great that the students don't have to pay a bill to attend school the amount of hours they are forced to put in for football means that they have no way of earning any other income. Especially at a university like Notre Dame where classwork itself could he a part time job these kids need some way of earning a small disposable income.

I'm not saying that they should be paid $45 and hour, but minimum wage for their practice hours seems appropriate to me. The point of work study is to pay students for preforming tasks that make the schools money, idk how you can argue that playing football doesn't fall under that category.

 

[Rhode Irish]

The coaches are basically teachers, no? We pay teachers at every level of education, we don't pay the students.

Would you agree that your boss is basically your teacher, so you are really a student, and therefore he should get paid and you shouldn't?

I don't think of coaches as teachers at all. A coach has a set of functions that are his responsibility. He is another part of the team, just like the players.

 

[GoldenDome]

I agree and disagree.

Yes, players should be able to make money by making commercials or whatever else. I think it's idiotic that EA Sports made in-game players that looked and performed like real-life student-athletes, for example. That's clearly illegitimate use of a player's image and likeness.

But it's incorrect that the schools are making money off of the players. Every single college football program could field a team full of walk-ons who are paying real tuition to attend their universities and people would still watch. People would still buy an EA Sports video game regardless of whether the Notre Dame middle linebacker was Jaylon Smith or a white guy named Kyle Jones.

I disagree with your assertion that people will tune in without the names. My #5 ND jersey wasn't bought because I like the that number, I liked the player. Johnny Manziel jerseys were sold out for months at the Texas A&M bookstore. Jay Bilas typed in "manziel" in the NCAA webstore and guess what jersey popped up in the results. NCAA took the search option down immediately. Sorry bro, evidence points in favor of college football stars. I will watch another team simply to watch Joey Bosa wreak havoc or Clowney to smash guys and disrupt the entire offense. College football is more than just watching your own team now, it is about the general audience and ratings. ESPN and other hype machines created it.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I could understand a call for expanded scholarships to those who participate but don't receive any help. But outright payment is ridiculous. The 85 s holarship players are receiving a world class education ($75k) per year for $0. It's not like nobody is receiving any sort of compensation.
Are these institutions really making hundreds of millions? I mean once the full scholarship cost is deducted, travel, clothing, gear, food.......the list goes on.

 

[Corry]

I agree and disagree.

Yes, players should be able to make money by making commercials or whatever else. I think it's idiotic that EA Sports made in-game players that looked and performed like real-life student-athletes, for example. That's clearly illegitimate use of a player's image and likeness.

Completely agree, but it will never happen. As long as the have nots control the voting interest of NCAA, players will never be able to market themselves.

But it's incorrect that the schools are making money off of the players. Every single college football program could field a team full of walk-ons who are paying real tuition to attend their universities and people would still watch. People would still buy an EA Sports video game regardless of whether the Notre Dame middle linebacker was Jaylon Smith or a white guy named Kyle Jones.

Completely disagree. This is entertainment. If HBO starts making crappy shows people won't watch. There is a reason that lower level football games don't rate well.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Would you agree that your boss is basically your teacher, so you are really a student, and therefore he should get paid and you shouldn't?

I don't think of coaches as teachers at all. A coach has a set of functions that are his responsibility. He is another part of the team, just like the players.

No
That's what an internship is. I'm a paid employee who completes tasks for my employer to earn his corporation money. Players learn from the coaches to develope into someone for future employment. Like an intern.

His responsibility includes the development of the players. The coaches develope the players by teaching them.

 

[wizards8507]

Why is it recreation for the player and not for the coach? The player is generating revenue with his efforts. Calling that "recreation" is disingenuous. If a college swim team or marching band makes money, then they should share that with the swimmers and band members. If they don't make money off it, then it is recreation. You have a ton of old people who aren't doing the actual marketable thing that people are paying for drawing huge salaries, but the people making the biggest contributions don't deserve anything?

You sound like Karl Marx. And that's not a strawman, you could honestly be paraphrasing the Communist Manifesto.

Let me illustrate how free markets work.

The price of labor is not determined by the profitability of the enterprise. Apple makes a lot more money when they sell an iPhone than Motorola makes when they sell a shitty entry-level brick. That has nothing to do with how much the laborers who build the iPhone earn compared to those who build the Motorola. The price of labor is determined by the laborer's willingness to do a job at a given rate. College football players are willing to play football for tuition, room, and board, therefore the market rate for playing college football is tuition, room, and board. If Jaylon Smith thought his labor was worth $175,000 per year, he wouldn't agree to play for the mere sum of tuition, room, and board. There are kids willing to play for free. There are kids who would actually pay to be able to play. A lot of them. If the guy behind you is willing to play for free, you have zero argument to claim you deserve all sorts of money.

I'd love nothing more than for a semiprofessional league to develop so that all of the guys who want to go get paid can go get paid. They won't have an education, and when they tear an ACL two months later they'll be good and fucked. College football would once again be populated by kids who actual want to go to class instead of "playing school" until their draft stock is strong enough.

Completely disagree. This is entertainment. If HBO starts making crappy shows people won't watch. There is a reason that lower level football games don't rate well.

ALL college football is lower level. College football is already the equivalent of crappy HBO shows because the NFL exists. Despite the NFL being higher-quality football, CFB still thrives.

 

[Corry]

Are these institutions really making hundreds of millions?

From the article Wiskey posted yesterday ND's football program makes 80 mill a year.

 

[GATTACA!]

I could understand a call for expanded scholarships to those who participate but don't receive any help. But outright payment is ridiculous. The 85 s holarship players are receiving a world class education ($75k) per year for $0. It's not like nobody is receiving any sort of compensation.
Are these institutions really making hundreds of millions? I mean once the full scholarship cost is deducted, travel, clothing, gear, food.......the list goes on.

Yes. Everything is about the bottom line. Do you think these schools are taking losses on football just for the love of the game? I have no idea what minimum wage for all practice hours would look like. For the sake of argument let's say 20k a year. 20k times 85 scholarship athletes equals 1.7 million. Notre Dame could spend 1.7 million without noticing it was gone. We make what something like 15 million from NBC alone every year.

 

[Emcee77]

The more interesting part of this news is Fr. Jenkins's adamance that ND would rather leave the NCAA than pay its players.

I fully support paying players in the current NCAA environment ... but I would also fully support leaving NCAA football for a true amateur student-athlete system, which in my view big-time D-I FBS NCAA football is not.

I typed this yesterday in another thread on this subject:

"I don't doubt that Jenkins is dead serious about ND dropping big-time football if it becomes openly semiprofessional football. That's what I like about him.

The University of Chicago, a former Big 10 school, dropped big-time college football decades ago due to concern that it was getting in the way of the players' education rather than helping it, and we should definitely follow suit if it comes to that. We aren't there yet ... right now, our players are able to graduate with marketable degrees, so even if you think (as I do) that the time/energy commitment required to play football at a big-time school like ND is a little bit out of proportion with any educational benefit playing big-time football may provide, the program is still justifiable as long as players come in knowing what the deal is (work really, really hard for 4 years, play big-time football, get a [solid degree in marketing or management or sociology or, if you potentially want to work REALLY hard and are REALLY smart and efficient, in the degree of your choice)]."

But if the deal changes so that our players don't graduate with regularity and the college football bargain is more about the players' opportunity to market themselves as athletes, we would have to seriously consider whether the football program would still make sense under those circumstances.