Manning better than Brady?

[aubeirish]

In the clutch, Tom Brady any day.

 

[BobD]

Who will retire first?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Who will retire first?

Manning. His body doesn't seem to be holding up as well.

 

[anarin]

Tom Brady same team as Cassel Tom Brady (2007): 398 of 578 for 4,806 yards, 50 touchdowns and eight interceptions.

Quarterback Rating: 117.2. Made it to Superbowl lost closing seconds .


Matt Cassel 327 of 516 for 3,693 yards, 21 touchdowns and 11 interceptions and didn't make playoff's . No difference your right .

Last time I checked Matt Cassel is the 3rd string QB for the Vikings now. So what does that tell you? In his first extensive playing time for the Patriots he lead the patriots to a 11-5 record. Them not making the playoffs with that record is an extreme rarity.

Love how you threw those stats out there too. Randy Moss did an excellent job at making QB's look good (except for the failed Raiders experiment). He managed to make a over the hill Randall Cunningham look great and a below average Daunte Culpepper make people think he was a good QB. So you take one of the greatest wide recievers this game has ever seen and you put him in the Belichek system, thats a recipe for success. This obviously is a complete different argument, but since you decided to try to throw numbers at me I felt it necessary to respond.

Brady is a good QB no doubt. But he isn't the greatest, nor is he the greatest in the game today. If you took him and put him on the Jaguars, his numbers would look like Henne's. But if you put Manning on the Jags; yes his numbers will drop (the jags are horrible), but that team would be a complete different team. and not the laughingstock of the league. It helps that he is the offensive coordinator of the team.

I wish you and 95% of Patriots fans would open their eyes and see that without Belichek the Patriots would be nothing. Belichek could take the backup QB and do what he has been doing. Bledsoe/Brady/Cassel.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Last time I checked Matt Cassel is the 3rd string QB for the Vikings now. So what does that tell you? In his first extensive playing time for the Patriots he lead the patriots to a 11-5 record. Them not making the playoffs with that record is an extreme rarity.

Love how you threw those stats out there too. Randy Moss did an excellent job at making QB's look good (except for the failed Raiders experiment). He managed to make a over the hill Randall Cunningham look great and a below average Daunte Culpepper make people think he was a good QB. So you take one of the greatest wide recievers this game has ever seen and you put him in the Belichek system, thats a recipe for success. This obviously is a complete different argument, but since you decided to try to throw numbers at me I felt it necessary to respond.

Brady is a good QB no doubt. But he isn't the greatest, nor is he the greatest in the game today. If you took him and put him on the Jaguars, his numbers would look like Henne's. But if you put Manning on the Jags; yes his numbers will drop (the jags are horrible), but that team would be a complete different team. and not the laughingstock of the league. It helps that he is the offensive coordinator of the team.

I wish you and 95% of Patriots fans would open their eyes and see that without Belichek the Patriots would be nothing. Belichek could take the backup QB and do what he has been doing. Bledsoe/Brady/Cassel.

Seriously Chuck, you were doing ok until this. And the statement that Brady is a good QB (that is beyond laughable as well). You've got a QB who started the year w out the 5 leading receivers from last year and he leads his team to 6-2(?) prior to Gronks return? The guy they brought in (Amendolla) to replace Welker got hurt and missed multiple games and he still doesn't miss a beat. Your hatred for Brady has led you to some flawed points. Without Belichick, they'd be nothing? Come on, you're better than that.

 

[PatsandBostonfan1975]

Last time I checked Matt Cassel is the 3rd string QB for the Vikings now. So what does that tell you? In his first extensive playing time for the Patriots he lead the patriots to a 11-5 record. Them not making the playoffs with that record is an extreme rarity.

Love how you threw those stats out there too. Randy Moss did an excellent job at making QB's look good (except for the failed Raiders experiment). He managed to make a over the hill Randall Cunningham look great and a below average Daunte Culpepper make people think he was a good QB. So you take one of the greatest wide recievers this game has ever seen and you put him in the Belichek system, thats a recipe for success. This obviously is a complete different argument, but since you decided to try to throw numbers at me I felt it necessary to respond.

Brady is a good QB no doubt. But he isn't the greatest, nor is he the greatest in the game today. If you took him and put him on the Jaguars, his numbers would look like Henne's. But if you put Manning on the Jags; yes his numbers will drop (the jags are horrible), but that team would be a complete different team. and not the laughingstock of the league. It helps that he is the offensive coordinator of the team.

I wish you and 95% of Patriots fans would open their eyes and see that without Belichek the Patriots would be nothing. Belichek could take the backup QB and do what he has been doing. Bledsoe/Brady/Cassel.

I would argue Belichick hasn't done anything without Brady he had Bledsoe before Brady look at result . Cassel went 11-5 granted but he missed playoffs with same I repeat with same team Brady rewrote the record books with . Yes he is not best quarterback in league but he is 37 and still in MVP conversation . Randy Moss was great before Brady but with Brady career season . Manning has huge offensive advantage this year and you know what ?? Playoff time if when meets the Patriots in cold weather he will be golfing in warm weather the week after .

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Last time I checked Matt Cassel is the 3rd string QB for the Vikings now. So what does that tell you? In his first extensive playing time for the Patriots he lead the patriots to a 11-5 record. Them not making the playoffs with that record is an extreme rarity.

Love how you threw those stats out there too. Randy Moss did an excellent job at making QB's look good (except for the failed Raiders experiment). He managed to make a over the hill Randall Cunningham look great and a below average Daunte Culpepper make people think he was a good QB. So you take one of the greatest wide recievers this game has ever seen and you put him in the Belichek system, thats a recipe for success. This obviously is a complete different argument, but since you decided to try to throw numbers at me I felt it necessary to respond.

Brady is a good QB no doubt. But he isn't the greatest, nor is he the greatest in the game today. If you took him and put him on the Jaguars, his numbers would look like Henne's. But if you put Manning on the Jags; yes his numbers will drop (the jags are horrible), but that team would be a complete different team. and not the laughingstock of the league. It helps that he is the offensive coordinator of the team.

I wish you and 95% of Patriots fans would open their eyes and see that without Belichek the Patriots would be nothing. Belichek could take the backup QB and do what he has been doing. Bledsoe/Brady/Cassel.

Randy Moss was a joke in Oakland the previous year. He had been run out of two different towns in the previous 3 years.

Totally disagree about your Jags argument.

 

[PatsandBostonfan1975]

Randy Moss was a joke in Oakland the previous year. He had been run out of two different towns in the previous 3 years.

Totally disagree about your Jags argument.

He was a worse joke after he left too .

 

[anarin]

I guess I'll bite on debating with Pats fans (plus 1)

Seriously Chuck, you were doing ok until this. And the statement that Brady is a good QB (that is beyond laughable as well). You've got a QB who started the year w out the 5 leading receivers from last year and he leads his team to 6-2(?) prior to Gronks return? The guy they brought in (Amendolla) to replace Welker got hurt and missed multiple games and he still doesn't miss a beat. Your hatred for Brady has led you to some flawed points. Without Belichick, they'd be nothing? Come on, you're better than that.

Why is it laughable to think he is good but not great if I believe he is a system QB that would not excel in another uniform? And everything you say after points to being in a system. Why do you think the Patriots never spend cash in free agency? Why do you think they trade out of the first round it seems every single year? They have a system that will work with the right players. Them being good this year with a bunch of nobodies has been said many times over. It is the front office and Belichek that made this team. I 100% think that if they drafted a QB this season coming up and stuck him in a couple of years when Brady retires (if or when), he'll succeed just as Rodgers succeeded when Favre left.

I would argue Belichick hasn't done anything without Brady he had Bledsoe before Brady look at result . Cassel went 11-5 granted but he missed playoffs with same I repeat with same team Brady rewrote the record books with . Yes he is not best quarterback in league but he is 37 and still in MVP conversation . Randy Moss was great before Brady but with Brady career season . Manning has huge offensive advantage this year and you know what ?? Playoff time if when meets the Patriots in cold weather he will be golfing in warm weather the week after .

He had Bledsoe in his first season with the club, its my fault for even using Bledsoe's name. He wasn't fit for that system, Bledsoe was always a cannon armed QB that gambled too much. Do you think Brady wouldve wrote those records without Moss? Your last point makes me cringe, because it reminds me that I'm debating with a Pats fan that has his goggles on.

Randy Moss was a joke in Oakland the previous year. He had been run out of two different towns in the previous 3 years.

Totally disagree about your Jags argument.

He was run out of two towns? He went to Oakland and New England after Minnesota. And in his first season in Oakland he broke 1,000 yards, I would hardly call that a joke.

Why would you disagree with the Jags statement? Have you not seen how the Broncos offense resembles the Colts offense of years past? Do you think thats because of the guy that holds the title Off. Coord.? Or the actual Off. Coord. that is under center? We've never in our lifetime seen a QB run a team like he does. If he doesn't become a head coach after his playing days it will be a travesty.

 

[irishfan]

I wish you and 95% of Patriots fans would open their eyes and see that without Belichek the Patriots would be nothing. Belichek could take the backup QB and do what he has been doing. Bledsoe/Brady/Cassel.

Believe me if Brady were expendable, he'd be out the door already. Belichick has said seeya to so many stars over the years: Bledsoe, Moss, Welker, Seymour, Law, Milloy. That's just full-blown studs I can name off the top of my head, there are tons more solid players who he let go. He would have kept Cassel for less money after 2008 if Brady were truly just a system QB, or he would have traded Brady and let Mallett take over already.

So, why doesn't Belichick just save the money and take the backup QB and go 8-3 and beat the Broncos and Saints? All without Gronk and Amendola for a majority of those games. If you can answer this, you win the argument.

Its an amazing system where a system QB and system WRs are beating the best teams in the NFL. Belichick is a God, but he's not that good.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I honestly dislike Brady, a lot. The Pats as well. Its personal. My closest friend is a die hard Pats fan so naturally I've grown to hate them. With that being said, I'd take Brady all day any day over Manning. Manning can stand behind the line and set the play up before the snap better, he's a genius, but past that Brady is better in every way.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

I guess I'll bite on debating with Pats fans (plus 1)



Why is it laughable to think he is good but not great if I believe he is a system QB that would not excel in another uniform? And everything you say after points to being in a system. Why do you think the Patriots never spend cash in free agency? Why do you think they trade out of the first round it seems every single year? They have a system that will work with the right players. Them being good this year with a bunch of nobodies has been said many times over. It is the front office and Belichek that made this team. I 100% think that if they drafted a QB this season coming up and stuck him in a couple of years when Brady retires (if or when), he'll succeed just as Rodgers succeeded when Favre left.




He had Bledsoe in his first season with the club, its my fault for even using Bledsoe's name. He wasn't fit for that system, Bledsoe was always a cannon armed QB that gambled too much. Do you think Brady wouldve wrote those records without Moss? Your last point makes me cringe, because it reminds me that I'm debating with a Pats fan that has his goggles on.



He was run out of two towns? He went to Oakland and New England after Minnesota. And in his first season in Oakland he broke 1,000 yards, I would hardly call that a joke.

Why would you disagree with the Jags statement? Have you not seen how the Broncos offense resembles the Colts offense of years past? Do you think thats because of the guy that holds the title Off. Coord.? Or the actual Off. Coord. that is under center? We've never in our lifetime seen a QB run a team like he does. If he doesn't become a head coach after his playing days it will be a travesty.

So you think that Ryan Mallett if inserted into the lineup this year would be 8-3 or even close? You think the Pats come back last night from 24-0 down or was that a "system" comeback? You believe Mallett rallys the Pats against the Saints a few weeks back, or was that also a "system comeback"? I really don't know what to say if you think that those victories would have been accomplished. On another note, what the hell does Favre being in Green Bay have to do with what Rodgers has accomplished and continues to accomplish? By extension, does Roethlisberger win Super Bowls because Bradshaw once did? We can agree to disagree as we clearly see this very differently.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Believe me if Brady were expendable, he'd be out the door already. Belichick has said seeya to so many stars over the years: Bledsoe, Moss, Welker, Seymour, Law, Milloy. That's just full-blown studs I can name off the top of my head, there are tons more solid players who he let go. He would have kept Cassel for less money after 2008 if Brady were truly just a system QB, or he would have traded Brady and let Mallett take over already.

So, why doesn't Belichick just save the money and take the backup QB and go 8-3 and beat the Broncos and Saints? All without Gronk and Amendola for a majority of those games. If you can answer this, you win the argument.

Its an amazing system where a system QB and system WRs are beating the best teams in the NFL. Belichick is a God, but he's not that good.

We think the same. I hadn't read this post until after posting what I did above. Reps.

 

[anarin]

Believe me if Brady were expendable, he'd be out the door already. Belichick has said seeya to so many stars over the years: Bledsoe, Moss, Welker, Seymour, Law, Milloy. That's just full-blown studs I can name off the top of my head, there are tons more solid players who he let go. He would have kept Cassel for less money after 2008 if Brady were truly just a system QB, or he would have traded Brady and let Mallett take over already.

So, why doesn't Belichick just save the money and take the backup QB and go 8-3 and beat the Broncos and Saints? All without Gronk and Amendola for a majority of those games. If you can answer this, you win the argument.

Its an amazing system where a system QB and system WRs are beating the best teams in the NFL. Belichick is a God, but he's not that good.

To be fair, no GM or coach in their right mind would take the franchise QB (system or not) and cast them off for the backup unless A) he is on the backside of his career and starting to suck or B) looking to rebuild.

And it is amazing system that attacks bend but dont break teams very well, this is why they owned the Colts all those years. They just attack the cover 2 perfectly.

I guess we'll find out how valuable Brady really was to Belichek whenever he retires.

So you think that Ryan Mallett if inserted into the lineup this year would be 8-3 or even close? You think the Pats come back last night from 24-0 down or was that a "system" comeback? You believe Mallett rallys the Pats against the Saints a few weeks back, or was that also a "system comeback"? I really don't know what to say if you think that those victories would have been accomplished. On another note, what the hell does Favre being in Green Bay have to do with what Rodgers has accomplished and continues to accomplish? By extension, does Roethlisberger win Super Bowls because Bradshaw once did? We can agree to disagree as we clearly see this very differently.

I cant say one way or another if Mallett could do any of those things, he hasnt taken a meaningful snap in awhile. I did however see Cassel lead the Patriots to an 11-5 record when Brady went down. And the comment about Rodgers and Favre was coming into the system, Mccarthy happens to be the same coach that was there when Favre was playing. Your comment about roethlisberger and bradshaw shows you're just being a prick. (I made the comment earlier its hard to debate with steelers and patriots fans, you guys are the worst)

 

[Irishbounty28]

I think it is funny to call a quarterback in the NFL a "system" quarterback, as if the coach is throwing the football to the players on the field. If you watch film of Tom Brady you will know that the windows he throws into are equally as difficult as the windows Peyton Manning throws to. They both make outstanding decisions and lead their teams very well.

The funny thing to me is that Brady is a "system" quarterback, while Peyton Manning calls all of the plays at the line and basically wins the game himself. The part that gets me is their win loss records in the playoffs and head to head. If Manning is making the calls and being a "coach on the field", then he continually makes the wrong calls in the playoffs.

To say that Peyton Manning is the end all be all is a discredit to the staff for both the Colts and Broncos while he has been there. The offensive coordinators at both of those locations still have a job too do and aren't just paid for nothing. If Manning did everything they wouldn't have coordinators on his team, as they would just let him call all of the plays.

Additionally, If we are talking about "system" quarterbacks than Joe Montana cannot be thought of as a "great" quarterback either because he was successful because of that same reason. Was the "system" successful because of the quarterback or was the quarterback successful because of the "system"? I would be willing to bet in most cases the former holds true, because if it was the latter it would be ridiculous to think that only Billy B. up in New England knows how to run a system.

 

[palinurus]

Boy, I have a hard time picking one of these guys over the other, all your arguments notwithstanding. You can't discount the Belichick "system" -- Cassell could win in it and he sucks. But it isn't just system; Brady, who I can't quite bring myself to hate, even though he's UMich scum, is pretty damn good. No, he wouldn't win with the Jags; neither would Montana, Bradshaw, or Sid Luckman. But he does (or at least at one point, did) have certain intangibles within that system that didn't give him overpowering tools, but gave him the right tools.

Manning, too, is hard to criticize. He just seems to know what the defense is going to do ahead of time. Like Drew Brees, you feel like he knows where all five potential receivers are at any one second. It's like he can QB with his eyes closed: "Four seconds....and Decker should be.....THERE!" Right on the button. And I just like the Colts and Manning more, personally. He's more human to me; Brady behaves well, but he seems to have a wall up; he's like Derek Jeter in that sense.

Now my memory of those Manning Colts teams -- and I've sort of always half-liked the Colts because my nephew is a fan -- was that they pretty much had a crappy defense. But I looked up their NFL defensive rank for the Manning Years and here's what I found:

YEAR pts-yards (league rank)

1998 29-29
1999 17-15
2000 15-21
2001 31-29
2002 7-8
2003 20-11
2004 19-29
2005 2-11
2006 23-21
2007 1-3
2008 7-11
2009 8-18
2010 23-20
2011 28-25

Not a perfect gauge, because the schedule can be easier or harder in a given year. But up and down. Some good years, some awful, some middlin'. I didn't look at the Pats, but I seem to remember some really good defenses there. That's Belichick's hallmark. But hard to pin a lack of more success on crappy defense.

It's even hard to judge them by championships. Brady has three, Manning one, but Brady hasn't won one is 8 years, so it's not like he's just a steady champion like Bradshaw or Montana is that respect. He won three in a short span, and that's been it.

On balance, I sort of feel like Manning is a better quarterback, but Brady is a little better Quarterback; know what I mean? But it's close and I'd gladly take either one.

 

[autry_denson]

How has Matt Cassel done since he left New England?

You realize the Broncos went to the second round of the playoffs the year before Manning arrived, right? Led by none other than...

Colts seem to be surviving too.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I think it's funny when either side of this debate feel the need to denigrate the other QB to make their argument. You can prefer either guy, but if you don't recognize that they're both great than you don't know football.

 

[PatsandBostonfan1975]

I think it's funny when either side of this debate feel the need to denigrate the other QB to make their argument. You can prefer either guy, but if you don't recognize that they're both great than you don't know football.

I agree I know Manning is great although I will never root for him but I respect his ability . The most impressive thing about him was that year he got hurt and the Colt's went from playoff team to worst . He's a great player I just prefer Brady.

 

[irishfan]

Patriots are 8-3 and their 3 leading WRs are Julian Edelman, Aaron Dobson, and Kenbrell Thompkins. Broncos are 9-2 and their 3 leading WRs are Demaryius Thomas, Decker, and Welker.

 

[Irish YJ]

the answer to the title of the thread is....
YES IMO.

One more record in the books (and Brady's no less). Stranger things have happened, but I do not see TB capturing that record again.

I loved his interview. Consummate PRO and CLASS ACT. Can't wait till he retires in 3-4 more years and goes on to coach the Vols.

 

[phork]

the answer to the title of the thread is....
YES IMO.

One more record in the books (and Brady's no less). Stranger things have happened, but I do not see TB capturing that record again.

I loved his interview. Consummate PRO and CLASS ACT. Can't wait till he retires in 3-4 more years and goes on to coach the Vols.

Brady's done more with less. And has more Superbowls. It is still a stunning stat to me that Eli has more SBs than Peyton.

 

[Irish#1]

At least some of you guys are willing to have some fun. Then"debate" is dumb insofar as it is serious. Two all-time greats, arguably the two best ever, battling it out head-to-head so many times. Both do so many things well, and are similar yet so different. For the record, I love Manning and love watching him play. No disrespect to him, just trying to have some fun.

You're right.

Several facts that can't be argued.
1. Until Manning went to Denver, Brady always had better defenses backing him up.
2. When Brady missed a season the Pats still went 11-5 or 12-4 (can't remember).
3. When Manning missed a season the Colts only won a couple of games.
4. I don't think weather effects Manning like a lot of the media believe. I remember the Colts winning a playoff game against KC on the road when the temperature was around 10-12 degrees. He also won a game playing against Denver a few years back that was played in a blizzard. Those losses to the Pats in cold weather had more to do with the Pats D and the Colts lack of a D than the weather effecting Manning.
5. Both still put up great numbers with less than stellar receiving corps.
6. In one of those SB wins, the Pats had a good kick return for very good field position and only needed to get within field goal range.

You can't go wrong with either.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

You're right.

Several facts that can't be argued.
...2. When Brady missed a season the Pats still went 11-5 or 12-4 (can't remember).
3. When Manning missed a season the Colts only won a couple of games.
...

They year Peyton was injured the Colts started 0-13, in what was probably the weakest conference in the history of the NFL (Jags, Titans and Texans were all mediocre at best).

So they went from 10-6 to 2-13. That's got to be the biggest swing by the loss of one player in NFL history.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Brady's done more with less. And has more Superbowls. It is still a stunning stat to me that Eli has more SBs than Peyton.

Brady has never had less than Peyton because Brady has always had Belichick. When you have the greatest coach in NFL history on your side you are bound to win a lot. Not to mention his defenses when he won the Super Bowls (like a decade ago) were stacked. Bruschi, Roidney Harrison, Vrabel, Seymour, Law, etc. Peyton only had a defense like that once: the year they won the Super Bowl with Freeney, Mathis, and Bob Sanders.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Peyton's 2004 season>Brady's 2007 season & Peyton's 2013 season though. That's real.

 

[ACamp1900]

No true ND man would ever root for a skunkbear.....................

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...Bruschi, Roidney Harrison, Vrabel, Seymour, Law, etc...

Yep.

Brady had Tedy Bruschi. Manning had...Gary Brackett.

Brady had Asante Samuel. Manning had...Marlin Jackson.

Brady had Vince Wilfork. Manning had...Raheem Brock.

Brady had Mike Vrabel. Manning had...Cato June.

Brady had Rodney Harrison. Manning had...Mike Doss/Antione Bethea (and Bob Sanders for 2 seasons).

Brady had Ty Warren. Manning had...Booger McFarland

Brady had Willie McGinnest. Manning had...Gilbert Gardener/Rocky Boiman/Freey Keaho

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Yep.

Brady had Tedy Bruschi. Manning had...Gary Brackett.

Brady had Asante Samuel. Manning had...Marlin Jackson.

Brady had Vince Wilfork. Manning had...Raheem Brock.

Brady had Mike Vrabel. Manning had...Cato June.

Brady had Rodney Harrison. Manning had...Mike Doss/Antione Bethea (and Bob Sanders for 2 seasons).

Brady had Ty Warren. Manning had...Booger McFarland

Brady had Willie McGinnest. Manning had...Gilbert Gardener/Rocky Boiman/Freey Keaho

So how were those guys in the passing game? Might it be more appropriate to say that Manning had Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison and Brady had Rechelle Caldwell and Bert Emanuel and David Patten. Good lord that's weak.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

So how were those guys in the passing game? Might it be more appropriate to say that Manning had Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison and Brady had Rechelle Caldwell and Bert Emanuel and David Patten. Good lord that's weak.

They weren't in the passing game (well, other than Vrabel). The discussion was over who had a better defense.