Is ND really pursuing National Championships?

[BleedBlueGold]

Who are the first round WRs Hartman and Leonard are neglecting exactly? Will Fuller got DeShone Kizer drafted - what elite talent have we rolled through at WR since then?

Chicken and egg debate, I guess? I'm focused on the fact that ND hasn't had a great QB in what feels like my lifetime and whenever they've had a serviceable one, the OL/WR/defense etc were mediocre to bad. It's fries w/o ketchup, PB w/o jelly, etc. year in and year out. When I look at next year, I see what should be a great defense, Carr at QB, OL will be much improved, insane skill at RB, and at WR they'll have C Williams, Gilbert, Saldate, Faison, and whoever they can get in the portal. If you build it, they will come? Idk. But I'd assume they'll get the WR recruiting turned around and give CJ the weapons he needs on the outside. I'm confident they'll have everything else. If CJ hits, this thread is irrelevant, and that's my point.

 

[Blazers46]

Now do Georgia/Kirby Smart.

I get people are disappointed right now, but good heavens let's all take a step back off the ledge.

You mean 4 time national champion defensive coordinator Kirby Smart?

 

[Katzenboyer]

You mean 4 time national champion defensive coordinator Kirby Smart?

Yes, the first time coach, which was the premise of the response that implies that "ND doesn't prioritize winning" because it hires first time coaches.

Venables.
Day.
Smart.
Lincoln Riley.
Sherrone Moore (after coming off a national championship no less!).

Factories hire first time coaches, too. To act like this is specific to ND is completely disingenuous.

 

[General Colon Bowel]

Exactly. One can certainly debate whether Notre Dame is a job for a first-time head coach, but it's not meaningfully different in that regard than Ohio State or Georgia or Oklahoma. And no one would dispute that Ohio State and Georgia and Oklahoma are "serious."

Agreed. The big difference is Day, Smart, and Riley got to learn from arguably the three best modern-day coaches. Freeman learned from Fickell and BK - both of whom I think are very good coaches. I've always felt that has been the biggest factor in those guy's immediate success vs. Freeman's struggles. Freeman is having to figure out how to win a championship on the fly. Day, Smart, and Riley had the roadmap and multiple years of experience in a championship program before the became head coaches. Not saying it was easy and anyone could have been as successful - but it's a lot easier to build from a standpoint of "how do I do what is needed to stay on top?" than it is to start with Freeman's challenge of "how do I get to that next level, and then how do I stay there?".

 

[stlnd01]

The one thing I wonder about Freeman is, unlike other coordinators like Smart or Lemming, he never coached at a championship level program. Kirby Smart was able to go to a relatively healthy Georgia program and put them over the top partly because he knew what they were lacking. He had seen what it takes to win championships. Guys like Freeman, Denbrock, Al Golden, have never been at championship teams/programs. They might be great coaches but do they know what's missing to put ND over the top?

It's why I really wouldn't want a Matt Campbell type to be hired if we end up moving on from Freeman in the next couple of years. He'd win a bunch of games but I doubt he'd lead us to a championship. I've also seen the flip side where a guy like Jeremy Pruitt went to Tennessee after having an entire career at places where he always had a distinct talent advantage (Bama, Georgia, and a NC season at FSU) and had no idea how to build a program or do more with less.

This is an interesting point.
The best teams Freeman coached on - '20 Cincy and '21 Notre Dame - only made NY6 bowls (both of which they lost in defensive meltdowns). The best coaches he worked for - Fickell and Kelly - are both good coaches but themselves never won titles. In 20-plus years of coaching, Denbrock has also never won a CFP or NY6 game (too much time at Notre Dame?). Nor has Golden. I guess it is possible that they don't know what's missing.
Though as others have said, I think they've built a roster that's capable of winning the whole thing, in a way Notre Dame hasn't for a long time. They just need a couple more pieces (chiefly a QB).

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Now do Georgia/Kirby Smart.

I get people are disappointed right now, but good heavens let's all take a step back off the ledge.

As was Bob Stoops & Lincoln Riley at OU, Mike Gundy at OSU, Ryan Day at the other OSU & Dabo Swinney at Clemson

 

[IRISHDODGER]

This is an interesting point.
The best teams Freeman coached on - '20 Cincy and '21 Notre Dame - only made NY6 bowls (both of which they lost in defensive meltdowns). The best coaches he worked for - Fickell and Kelly - are both good coaches but themselves never won titles. In 20-plus years of coaching, Denbrock has also never won a CFP or NY6 game (too much time at Notre Dame?). Nor has Golden. I guess it is possible that they don't know what's missing.
Though as others have said, I think they've built a roster that's capable of winning the whole thing, in a way Notre Dame hasn't for a long time. They just need a couple more pieces (chiefly a QB).

But then you have a guy like Dabo Swinney who as far as I know was never on a championship winning staff before being named the interim HD at Clemson. He may have cooked his career through stubbornness towards the transfer portal but dude won TWO national championships that were about as legit as they come considering who he defeated.

 

[General Colon Bowel]

But then you have a guy like Dabo Swinney who as far as I know was never on a championship winning staff before being named the interim HD at Clemson. He may have cooked his career through stubbornness towards the transfer portal but dude won TWO national championships that were about as legit as they come considering who he defeated.

True, but Swinney took a lot longer to get to that elite level. Similar to Freeman, he didn't have the roadmap and there were a lot more stumbles in figuring out how to get there.

People seem to forget that before those championship teams he had 6 seasons of going 9-5, 6-7, 10-4, 11-2, 11-2, 10-3

 

[Irish du Nord]

This is an interesting point.
The best teams Freeman coached on - '20 Cincy and '21 Notre Dame - only made NY6 bowls (both of which they lost in defensive meltdowns). The best coaches he worked for - Fickell and Kelly - are both good coaches but themselves never won titles. In 20-plus years of coaching, Denbrock has also never won a CFP or NY6 game (too much time at Notre Dame?). Nor has Golden. I guess it is possible that they don't know what's missing.
Though as others have said, I think they've built a roster that's capable of winning the whole thing, in a way Notre Dame hasn't for a long time. They just need a couple more pieces (chiefly a QB).

I’m not sure that’s completely fair jn the 2021 Cincy game. The defense only game up 22 points, the last three being a 54 yard FG. They held a more talented UGA team to 1/11 on 3rd down and forced two turnovers. If their offense did anything after their first possession of the second half they would’ve won the game.

 

[Blazers46]

Yes, the first time coach, which was the premise of the response that implies that "ND doesn't prioritize winning" because it hires first time coaches.

Venables.
Day.
Smart.
Lincoln Riley.
Sherrone Moore (after coming off a national championship no less!).

Factories hire first time coaches, too. To act like this is specific to ND is completely disingenuous.

To act like Marcus Freeman was in the same league as a Venables, Smart or even Lincoln Riley is disingenuous. Riley isn’t a good coach… Day is benefiting from the recruiting momentum but he has underperformed and Moore doesn’t even have a contract and hasn’t faired that well and probably won’t last that long. Coaches on your list had been seen as great coordinators for years before they became a HC. Freeman had one or two good years at Cincy and not even a complete year at ND.

 

[stlnd01]

I’m not sure that’s completely fair jn the 2021 Cincy game. The defense only game up 22 points, the last three being a 54 yard FG. They held a more talented UGA team to 1/11 on 3rd down and forced two turnovers. If their offense did anything after their first possession of the second half they would’ve won the game.

Fair. It's just that my first time being particularly aware of Marcus Freeman (by then our presumptive DC hire) was turning on the last few minutes of that game and watching Georgia dink and dunk its way down the field against a stupid three-man rush/prevent defense until they were in range to kick the game-winning field goal.
It was not inspiring. But what you're saying is it was Denbrock's fault?

 

[Irish du Nord]

Fair. It's just that my first time being particularly aware of Marcus Freeman (by then our presumptive DC hire) was turning on the last few minutes of that game and watching Georgia dink and dunk its way down the field against a stupid three-man rush/prevent defense until they were in range to kick the game-winning field goal.
It was not inspiring. But what you're saying is it was Denbrock's fault?

I’d pull the OSU option and blame Fickell

 

[TorontoGold]

To act like Marcus Freeman was in the same league as a Venables, Smart or even Lincoln Riley is disingenuous. Riley isn’t a good coach… Day is benefiting from the recruiting momentum but he has underperformed and Moore doesn’t even have a contract and hasn’t faired that well and probably won’t last that long. Coaches on your list had been seen as great coordinators for years before they became a HC. Freeman had one or two good years at Cincy and not even a complete year at ND.

If we're going on "resumes" Marcus Freeman absolutely had one that was on par or better than Lincoln Riley's. Riley showed up and had Mayfield on the roster before he got there. He was also the DC when the turnaround happened at UC and had the #1 D per PFF in 2020.

 

[Blazers46]

If we're going on "resumes" Marcus Freeman absolutely had one that was on par or better than Lincoln Riley's. Riley showed up and had Mayfield on the roster before he got there. He was also the DC when the turnaround happened at UC and had the #1 D per PFF in 2020.

Cool. Riley isn’t a great coach.

 

[TorontoGold]

Cool. Riley isn’t a great coach.

You said Freeman didn’t have a resume similar to Riley. He did.

 

[Blazers46]

You said Freeman didn’t have a resume similar to Riley. He did.

I never used the word resume… but… Riley had a better resume.

 

[TorontoGold]

I never used the word resume… but… Riley had a better resume.

“To act as if Marcus Freeman was in the same league” Guess one could say body of work or…resume? But I’ll leave semantics to you.

Riley was an OC for two years before getting the job. Freeman had more experience and arguably better results. It is complete revisionist history to say he was not a great candidate.

 

[NDFAN2008]

Or Ryan Day, or Dan Lanning, or Lincoln Riley when Oklahoma hired him. We definitely should have hired Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell. Then we'd be serious.

Neither would be better than Freeman

 

[stlnd01]

Neither would be better than Freeman

I agree. I was being sarcastic. Fickell maybe maybe but Matt Campbell is not a coach you hire if you are serious about winning a national championship.

 

[Blazers46]

“To act as if Marcus Freeman was in the same league” Guess one could say body of work or…resume? But I’ll leave semantics to you.

Riley was an OC for two years before getting the job. Freeman had more experience and arguably better results. It is complete revisionist history to say he was not a great candidate.

Riley won a Broyles for top assistant and was the OC at East Carolina and did great with that pathetic program. I know how much you like to win arguments and we will never agree and Riley > Freeman isn’t a hill I will die on but if Riley is the only one you are nitpicking and getting your panties in a wad for I think my point still stands.

 

[irishff1014]

“To act as if Marcus Freeman was in the same league” Guess one could say body of work or…resume? But I’ll leave semantics to you.

Riley was an OC for two years before getting the job. Freeman had more experience and arguably better results. It is complete revisionist history to say he was not a great candidate.

I agree with some you said yikes.

And at Oklahoma he had unlimited talent with 0 requirements for their players.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Cool. Riley isn’t a great coach.

That's not the point being made. You can't keep claiming ND isn't serious about competing for championships because they hired a first-time head coach when other major programs do it all the time.

 

[Blazers46]

That's not the point being made. You can't keep claiming ND isn't serious about competing for championships because they hired a first-time head coach when other major programs do it all the time.

Sure I can.

 

[stlnd01]

Sure I can.

You can claim whatever you want but you can also be wrong.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Sure I can.

Admit you're wrong? Cool.

 

[Blazers46]

You can claim whatever you want but you can also be wrong.

Part of being fan. Being right or wrong… makes do difference.

 

[HouseofPain]

MF gottta go or ND will never be a contender

 

[Blazers46]

MF gottta go or ND will never be a contender

But he’s just as qualified as Lincoln Riley… 🙄

 

[NDpendent]

Based on what the coaches constantly say regarding their goals and their sale's pitch to recruits, ND's goal is win a NC. It's not to get to a major bowl. It's not to win 11 games. It's not to beat USC. It's obviously not to win a conference championship. The goal is to win it all.

With the current state of the passing game, I think many would agree that ND has little or no chance of scoring consistently on an elite team. While ND is good enough to run over some teams, there is no reason to believe that ND could pull that off against UGA, Texas, Alabama, or Ohio State in a playoff game. In the last 10 years, the winning team has scored 34, 65, 33, 52, 44, 26, 35, 45, and 42. Could we score 26 against an elite defense with this offense?

So while you can certainly argue that Leonard gives ND the best chance to maximize our record this year, can you really argue that running an offense like the one we've seen to this point is compatible with the program's goal of winning an NC? (I'm not saying it can't improve, and I am rooting for him, for sure.)

We might lose more games with one of our other QBs, but at least we are building towards the goal. I think a year without a passing game will seriously hurt our offensive development for next year and make recruiting QB and WR even harder than it already has been for ND.

Thoughts?

To answer your question briefly. Yes Notre Dame is really pursuing National Championships.

Sorry had to bump this one

 

[BleedBlueGold]

MF gottta go or ND will never be a contender

Oof.