Guess Who's Back?

[jiggafini19]

Removed.

 

[Guest]

and the Kates saga continues

 

[irishnd31]

Oh Hell no. I DO NOT WANT TO GET STARTED WITH THIS AGAIN. Ya'll have a good time with this thread, because if I get to talking about the whole Kates thing again, I may end up taking a header off of the tallest building I can find.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

Where might that tall building be in Oil City...??? Rodger's Gym-Emporium???

 

[irishnd31]

Where might that tall building be in Oil City...??? Rodger's Gym-Emporium???

I would have to say that the very peak of the Pizza Hut would be it.

Oil City = The Mecca of Entertainment.

 

[jiggafini19]

If they were to offer him and he didn't take it on the spot, be done with this. Otherwise, make the offer.

 

[BGIF]

... he would commit if he received the phone call from the Coach Latina, who happens to be the one on the Irish staff pushing for Kates

I realize Latina is the area recruiter (Frazer and Walls) but considering the dearth of bodies at DT I'd expect Jappy Oliver to be leading the charge. Considering the lack of QB pressure, I'd expect Bill Lewis to be chiming in. Considering the miles of offense allowed I'd expect Rick Minter to be demanding!

Latina may be the one most familar with this recruit but you'd think the defensive coaches would be threatening to walk if they didn't get a key resource they need.

Or does Latina want him as another OL (All-State Offensive Guard)?

 

[jiggafini19]

Everything I've seen since August indicates ND is recruiting him on defense. But his versatility would certainly be a plus.

 

[Irish Envy]

Everything I've seen since August indicates ND is recruiting him on defense. But his versatility would certainly be a plus.

Yep. I think you have to bring him in. If nothing else, he'll have a year of conditioning on everyone and can provide a stop gap if he doesn't succeed.

 

[grantland]

I would have to say that the very peak of the Pizza Hut would be it.
Oil City = The Mecca of Entertainment.

Does Kates eat alot of Pizza?

 

[Irish Envy]

Does Kates eat alot of Pizza?

I'd hope so. You got to remember, we need a BIG DT... someone that can eat up space and command a double team. This will help control the run and let our backers roam more.

He can eat all the pizza he needs as long as he can perform.

 

[jiggafini19]

I wish I could see his film from his senior year.

As a junior, Kates was pretty quick on defense. I know a few people have posted otherwise who saw him live this year, but I'm holding out for a chance that Kates comes to ND.

The d line depth is really a need right now.

 

[guff]

I watched three televised Bishop McDevitt games. This is what I saw from Kates: No penetration, no motor and no "nasty". But he is huge maybe too huge. I think I saw Kates quoted as saying he needs to shed a few pounds. I think he'd benefit from that.

I've heard a rumor -repeat RUMOR- from a student that attends McDevitt that Kates really likes ND. Problem is my source is also an ND fan so he is biased.

 

[Irish Envy]

Found this page of McDevitt football. Which games did you check out?

http://www.mcdfootball.freeservers.com/

 

[guff]

Central Dauphin, Mckeesport (State title game), and Cumberland Valley (I think).

I like the caption on the website "Tradition Never Graduates" and neither will McCoy apparently (that's who's in the picture)

 

[Irish Envy]

Could any of it be that Kates was playing both ways? I know a lot of kids these days are specializing. Kates played both ways, and apparently well... he was named to the AP Class AAAA All-State team as an OL.

Paddy Mullen also sacrificed himself in a similar manner this year playing OL, DL and TE because his squad got banged up.

I think you have to offer this kid and roll the dice.

 

[Irish Envy]

Kates might be in the midst of making a transition from defensive tackle, where he has been recruited, to offensive lineman, where he made the first team. He has been courted strongly by Notre Dame, and has made official visits to Minnesota and Syracuse with a trip soon to Maryland. At 6-4, 325 pounds and with very quick feet, he has loads of potential.

"There was no secret who we were going to run behind this year," Weachter said. "He does such a great job when he's pulling. It was fun to watch him. There were times he'd pull and pancake two or three guys."

Source: PennLive.com

 

[Irishkid23]

Found this page of McDevitt football. Which games did you check out?

http://www.mcdfootball.freeservers.com/

On "D", 3 sacks, 1 fumble recovery according to the site.

 

[Irish Envy]

Central Dauphin, Mckeesport (State title game), and Cumberland Valley (I think).

I like the caption on the website "Tradition Never Graduates" and neither will McCoy apparently (that's who's in the picture)

In the Cumberland Valley game recap, the writer of the article said Kates was putting pressure on the QB all day.

Can you go into more detail on what he did or didn't do since you watched the game... man, I'd love to get some footage.

 

[guff]

Kates does play both ways and from what I saw he doesn't have the stamina to do that.

I didn't pay too much attention to him on offense so I have no opinion of his O Line play.

What I saw of his defensive play:
Ball is snapped. Kates gets out of his stance engages the blocker gives a little (a yard maybe) upfield push. He is an immovable object. No one runs at him and he was frequently double teamed. I never saw him make a play while in pursuit from the backside. He just didn't seem to aggressively trail a play. I didn't see alot of athleticism.

I know this sounds intensely negative. It's not meant that way. I just expected more out of him. With all of his size and the hype surrounding him I expected him to set up shop in the opponet's backfield. I didn't see that. Never said "Wow, that was unbelievable". Is he good? Yes. Great? Not yet. But what worries me most is that he wasn't nasty. He seemed like a gentle giant out there.

It's tough to play both offense and defense when you weigh north of 300lbs. It seemed to wear him out. He needs to shed some pounds, get in shape and get nasty.

Sum it up. If he came to ND (or any quality D1 school) he won't make an impact until his sophomore year at the earliest. He will begin to make a difference when he transforms his body from a fat 325lbs into a football playing 300lbs.

 

[Irishkid23]

Kates and Mendoza

Kates and Mendoza

Kates does play both ways and from what I saw he doesn't have the stamina to do that.

I didn't pay too much attention to him on offense so I have no opinion of his O Line play.

What I saw of his defensive play:
Ball is snapped. Kates gets out of his stance engages the blocker gives a little (a yard maybe) upfield push. He is an immovable object. No one runs at him and he was frequently double teamed. I never saw him make a play while in pursuit from the backside. He just didn't seem to aggressively trail a play. I didn't see alot of athleticism.

I know this sounds intensely negative. It's not meant that way. I just expected more out of him. With all of his size and the hype surrounding him I expected him to set up shop in the opponet's backfield. I didn't see that. Never said "Wow, that was unbelievable". Is he good? Yes. Great? Not yet. But what worries me most is that he wasn't nasty. He seemed like a gentle giant out there.

It's tough to play both offense and defense when you weigh north of 300lbs. It seemed to wear him out. He needs to shed some pounds, get in shape and get nasty.

Sum it up. If he came to ND (or any quality D1 school) he won't make an impact until his sophomore year at the earliest. He will begin to make a difference when he transforms his body from a fat 325lbs into a football playing 300lbs.

Maybe he's just a little lazy, but he is still a kid. If CW likes him, that's good enough for me. I would strongly believe that coach Mendoza will kick his lazy *** into shape like he did with the boys last year.

I remember Darius Walker saying, to paraphrase him, "spring and fall camps were the toughest he has ever had in order to get into shape; and he wouldn't want to go through it again." Obviously, it paid off. Can't wait until next year!!

I bet Zibby just loves the camps.

 

[BGIF]

... If he came to ND (or any quality D1 school) he won't make an impact until his sophomore year at the earliest. He will begin to make a difference when he transforms his body from a fat 325lbs into a football playing 300lbs.

From your description he will NOT make an impact his sophomore year. Athletes like Zibby make an impact their sophomore year. Guys that arrive overweight and out of shape (pus guts with no stamina) take more than a season to develop into a Div 1 impact player. Hilliard was first team USA Today DL (a McCoy caliber reputation) and had to sit out practice when he arrived as a freshman because he couldn't keep up with the big boys. He was used to pushing kids around. But found he got pushed around as everybody was as big and all were faster. He didn't play as a freshman. Got in 3 games as a sophomore for a couple of plays. He was a reserve DT as a junior starting the last 5 games when Andy Wisne got hurt. He made some nice plays but impact player - no. He finally arrived in his senior year.

Kates may have Hilliard's high school physique but he doesn't have the credentials Hilliard brought with him from high school.

If Kates is going to make an impact as a sophomore he has to arrive on campus, whatever campus, this summer with a Div 1 body and with Div 1 stamina. He needs to lose 40 (or more) pounds and then build his body back up from there. If he arrives in Div 1 shape, he can focus on learning the technique he obviously does not have now. He's not going to learn technique when he's sucking wind after Morton or Sullivan flattened him before he got his knuckles off the ground. And then Swapp buried him as he was getting up.

You're deluding yourself if think otherwise.

From your description (and the other poster that's seen him play) he may be as big a project as Hand.

 

[Irish Envy]

From your description he will NOT make an impact his sophomore year. Athletes like Zibby make an impact their sophomore year. Guys that arrive overweight and out of shape (pus guts with no stamina) take more than a season to develop into a Div 1 impact player. Hilliard was first team USA Today DL (a McCoy caliber reputation) and had to sit out practice when he arrived as a freshman because he couldn't keep up with the big boys. He was used to pushing kids around. But found he got pushed around as everybody was as big and all were faster. He didn't play as a freshman. Got in 3 games as a sophomore for a couple of plays. He was a reserve DT as a junior starting the last 5 games when Andy Wisne got hurt. He made some nice plays but impact player - no. He finally arrived in his senior year.

Kates may have Hilliard's high school physique but he doesn't have the credentials Hilliard brought with him from high school.

If Kates is going to make an impact as a sophomore he has to arrive on campus, whatever campus, this summer with a Div 1 body and with Div 1 stamina. He needs to lose 40 (or more) pounds and then build his body back up from there. If he arrives in Div 1 shape, he can focus on learning the technique he obviously does not have now. He's not going to learn technique when he's sucking wind after Morton or Sullivan flattened him before he got his knuckles off the ground. And then Swapp buried him as he was getting up.

You're deluding yourself if think otherwise.

From your description (and the other poster that's seen him play) he may be as big a project as Hand.

Would you consider guys like Ted Washington, Keith Traylor, et al valuable or invaluable. They were always out of shape, slow but immovable objects on the defensive line. They ate space and thus made their teams better because they commanded a double, sealed off inside running lanes, etc.

Everything I've read on Kates indicates this is the player he is on defense. He was an all-state on the offensive line and everything in print about him playing there said he was the best pulling lineman and would take 2-3 guys out.

Just because a guy is out of shape physically... carries a gut doesn't mean he isn't a damn fine football player. Look at guys like the above mentioned and Gilbert Brown when he played in Green Bay.

The more I read about Kates, the more I like.

 

[LuckoftheIrish86]

No doubt Kates can be effective at ND but I agree it won't be for awhile. Junior Year sounds right.

 

[BGIF]

Would you consider guys like Ted Washington, Keith Traylor, et al valuable or invaluable. They were always out of shape, slow but immovable objects on the defensive line. They ate space and thus made their teams better because they commanded a double, sealed off inside running lanes, etc.

Everything I've read on Kates indicates this is the player he is on defense. He was an all-state on the offensive line and everything in print about him playing there said he was the best pulling lineman and would take 2-3 guys out.

Just because a guy is out of shape physically... carries a gut doesn't mean he isn't a damn fine football player. Look at guys like the above mentioned and Gilbert Brown when he played in Green Bay.

The more I read about Kates, the more I like.

Perhaps you need to read more closely.

Perhaps you need to read the comments of people who actually saw him rather than reports of a telephone interview with his coach who's trying to get his kid a scholarship.

Has Jason Sapp seen him play or is Jason still trying to salvage his scoop that Kates verballed to ND?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Kates make All-State in his CLASS (AAAA)not overall?

Why wasn't he selected at DL as that's the position he was being touted for in college? Could it be that he lacks the quickness for defense making him more suitable for Offense than Defense?

... everything in print about him playing there said he was the best pulling lineman and would take 2-3 guys out ...

"Everything" or was there just ONE quote from his high school coach shilling for his boy?

When was the last (first) time you heard a coach touting one of his prospects where he didn't rave over the top?

BTW, isn't this the same coach who's star running back just left school to go to prep school to try and get eligible to play Div 1 ball? I'm sure he filled then all in on his star's academic progress.

Look at the neck and face of this kid and then compare it with McCoy, et al. No point in comparing the Dunlap, as you think that a strongpoint.

And rather than compare NFL players as this is an ND/college board how about comparing him with ND players like Hilliard, Laws, Landri, Kuntz, Hand, Zorich, Alm, Dahl,Young, Flanigan, Weaver, Weston, Nehaus, Kadish or Hardy to name a few? Or other Div 1 players, like Mahelona, Williams, or Ngata? Or other high school players in his class and position like McCoy and Lewis?


ND lacks, and has a lacked, a push up the middle and you think the answer is an immobile object that takes up space?



Your post here and on B&G (about him playing damn well on offense AND defense is truthiness.

As I said in the earlier post, if Kates is such a defensive gem why isn't Oliver, Lewis, and Minter leading the charge for this kid? They should be camped out at his house, are they?

=======================================================
Truthiness Voted 2005 Word of the Year

In its 16th annual words of the year vote, the American Dialect Society voted truthiness as the word of the year. Recently popularized on the Colbert Report, a satirical mock news show on the Comedy Central television channel, truthiness refers to the quality of preferring concepts or facts one wishes to be true, rather than concepts or facts known to be true.

 

[TexasDomer]

ND lacks, and has a lacked, a push up the middle and you think the answer is an immobile object that takes up space?

Doesn't that depend on scheme? DTs may be required to tie up guards and tackles, allowing LBs and blitzing DBs to deliver up the middle, and passrush DEs off the edge.

It's been our lack of speed on the line AND at linebacker that has hurt us.

Kates may not be ideal, but he may be the best DT available this year. So, the decision is, go with him or leave the scholarship open. Weis'll make the right call.

 

[jiggafini19]

Again, I wish I could see some footage of him from this year.

Jason Kates the junior moved very well from pocket to the sidelines. He seemed very quick. Too much can happen in 12 months, however, so without seeing a tape of him from this past Fall I'm not sure what progress he made into and throughtout his senior year.

I'm just wondering how immobile he really is. He's no Gerald McCoy, but not many people are. Giving Kates a scholarship wouldn't just be filling up spots with a body in my opinion. Kates or no Kates, the focus for 2007 should be the defensive tackle position. Whether they get him or not, they'll need at least 3 either way.

Make Kates the offer. If he's not ready to verbal or just plain doesn't want to, be done with it.

 

[Irish Envy]

The Kates situation goes WELL beyond his coach trying to get him to Notre Dame. He could have chosen from several quality schools months ago, but is holding out for the Irish. Since you're all about the truths here, here are some facts:

FACT: As a junior he was named second team AAAA all-state by both Associated Press and the Pennsylvania Football News. In addition he was first team all-conference and first team all-district. As a senior he was an Associated Press AAAA all-state selection on offense. He was also selected to the Harrisburg Patriot-News Platiunum 33 team.

It may be just me... but if you're a lazy bum, you don't get all of these accolades. There are too many hard working kids out there that would have taken these from him if he also didn't perform on the field, no?

FACT: He holds scholarship offers from several schools that have an eye for defensive talent. Michigan, Penn State, Maryland, Michigan State, North Carolina State, Syracuse and Minnesota.

He isn't getting offered by TCU, UNLV and mid-majors... these are the big boys, most of which that we've played and have dominated us on the defensive line in recent years. I also thing Gregg Robinson is one helluva defensive coach and if he all the sudden has an interest in Kates, I think that says mountains about the potential there.

FACT: At 330+ lbs, he is faster then a majority of the offensive linemen that we signed including Carufel, Webb, Wenger and Stewart. He has been clocked as fast as 5 flat. He has also been given very good reviews on his size, strength and foot speed by most major recruiting services including Rivals, Scout and Tom Lemming. Again, it's not just his coach, bub.

I don't need to see video... but the video I have seen on Rivals wasn't bad. Not sure if Scout has video there because I don't have a membership. I'll also continue to rely on those that get PAID and do this as their profession. After all, that is what they get PAID to do.

Additionally, I've talked to a couple people via email (one runs EasternPAFootball.com) and they've had good reviews and speak highly of Kates. While they're just fans, too... I think it is safe to say they've had the priviledge to see a greater body of work then even recruiting analysts have seen.

FACT: He is still a child. The maturation process when a kid hits college is night and day compared to living with your parents and being in high school. It isn't come home after school, watch TV and eat a box of twinkies anymore because you have no homework.

You give him a good strength and conditioning coach, which you'll agree we have, and he'll shed 15-20lbs in a matter of weeks simply by adjusting his diet alone. Throw in weights and cardio and you can multiply the effect.

Finally, you asked me why I compared him to Washington, Traylor and Brown, who were NFL players. Well, it's pretty simple. Several times in their careers, as grown men and NFL players, each was said to be very overweight, lazy and lacking intensity yet they were great impacts on their respective teams.

 

[Irish Envy]

Kates is a powerhouse 330-pounder who prefers defensive tackle, but is better-suited to play guard in college. All he has to do is watch his weight; he has a tendency to get heavy, but when he's in shape there are very few at the guard position that can redirect, change directions, pull and trap, and just fire out like the Pennsylvania bruiser. There are not many like him because of his unusually quick feet and great girth but, again, he'd do well to watch his weight. In his career, he's graded out at close to 90 percent in his blocking assignments (at right guard) and has yet to allow McDevitt signal-caller Jeremy Ricker to be sacked. Notre Dame, Penn State, Michigan and Virginia currently lead Rutgers, Michigan State, North Carolina State, Wisconsin and Minnesota.

http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stories/082505aca.html

 

[jiggafini19]

I go by where they are listed with each team. Kates, to the best of my knowledge, is being recruited by ND primarily as a DT.

Based on what Rick Minter's defensive scheme supposedly is, defensive tackles are can occupy the offensive linemen would be of need for ND. This then opens up gaps for the linebackers.

I like the idea of rotating defensive linemen. Several teams do this. But you need depth. Landri and Laws have to be on the field because there really isn't anyone else. I could take Kates as a short yardage run stuffer.

But I still think he's quicker than we assume.