George Zimmerman Trial

[Irish Insanity]

Like seriously.. how can anyone NOT love Skittles???

I love skittles, but I've never tried this whole drank thing they are used for.

 

[Rhode Irish]

No one is leaving out that GZ could have made better choices. We just aren't accepting the notion that the choices he made make him a racist vigilante, bent on shooting Martin. Or that those choices require that he be convicted. It seems to me that others are trying to excuse Martin's initiating a confrontation, by pointing fingers at Zimmerman. Martin made the choice to confront Zimmerman.

Couple things: first, I'm not calling anyone a racist. If the actors here were green and purple, I'd still be upset that an adult shot an unarmed kid that was just walking home. I do think that, in a more just world, there would be a penalty to pay for randomly instigating this situation and then shooting and killing a person. And second, you assert that Martin made a choice and that he confronted Zimmerman, and I just want to go on record as saying that those are not universally accepted pieces of information. Personally, I don't believe either of those things are true. I think Martin had this situation happen to him (no choice), and that the idea that Martin confronted Zimmerman is just what anyone that just shot a kid would tell the cops and not grounded in reality.

 

[kmoose]

Couple things: first, I'm not calling anyone a racist. If the actors here were green and purple, I'd still be upset that an adult shot an unarmed kid that was just walking home. I do think that, in a more just world, there would be a penalty to pay for randomly instigating this situation and then shooting and killing a person. And second, you assert that Martin made a choice and that he confronted Zimmerman, and I just want to go on record as saying that those are not universally accepted pieces of information. Personally, I don't believe either of those things are true. I think Martin had this situation happen to him (no choice), and that the idea that Martin confronted Zimmerman is just what anyone that just shot a kid would tell the cops and not grounded in reality.

The Prosecutor said as much, in his closing arguments, and the information was corroborated by the girlfriend, who was on the phone with Martin when the confrontation occurred.

Martin, meanwhile, was profiling Zimmerman. On his phone, he told a friend he was being followed by a “creepy-*** cracker.” The friend—who later testified that this phrase meant pervert—advised Martin, “You better run.” She reported, as Zimmerman did, that Martin challenged Zimmerman, demanding to know why he was being hassled.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I would say that the "hassling" he was asking about counts as confronting.

 

[pkt77242]

The Prosecutor said as much, in his closing arguments, and the information was corroborated by the girlfriend, who was on the phone with Martin when the confrontation occurred.

My understanding is that TM only confronted GZ after tryin to get away. When he couldn't ditch GZ then he confronted.

 

[kmoose]

My understanding is that TM only confronted GZ after tryin to get away. When he couldn't ditch GZ then he confronted.

Question for all of you who think that Trayvon could not have been the aggressor? His girlfriend testified that, at one point, Trayvon was standing in front of his Dad's g/f's front door, BEFORE Zimmerman caught up to him. If he was just this scared, innocent guy without a chip on his shoulder........... why didn't he just go into the home, and be done with the whole situation?

 

[pkt77242]

Question for all of you who think that Trayvon could not have been the aggressor? His girlfriend testified that, at one point, Trayvon was standing in front of his Dad's g/f's front door, BEFORE Zimmerman caught up to him. If he was just this scared, innocent guy without a chip on his shoulder........... why didn't he just go into the home, and be done with the whole situation?

First he was an innocent guy. 2nd the initial aggressor was GZ following him. Is it possible that TM started the actual physical fight? Yes it is, but the GZ stalking him is what starts the whole **** storm.

Also according to you, the person being stalked is at fault for the situation not the stalker?
Lets change the story a little. A teenage girl is walking home and a guy starts following her. She tries to get away but he keeps following her, so she turns around and uses a stun gun on him? Who is at fault? The girl being followed or the guy following her?

 

[Woneone]

fair enough. we can agree to disagree.

edit: I could easily picture him getting on top of him. I could see the gun above Martin's legs and them fighting over the gun and him getting on top of Zimmerman to take away his mobility so all he had to deal with is his arms. but, I can certainly see other scenarios playing out. I personally can't get past the unlikely scenario (in my mind) of him pulling the gun out when he said he did.

Edit: Guh, I can't get an image to work. I hate the interweb.

The gun. So you think they struggled over a gun with such a small surface area to grab without another shot being fired?

 

[yankeehater]

The media and politicians brought race into this tragedy. There are thousands of black men murdered every year and 91% of those are by other black men. Can anyone explain to me why those are not all over the news and why there are not protests in the streets over those? Any loss of life is a tragedy yet they have made Mr. Martin's seem like it was the only one that actually mattered.

 

[Redbar]

I love skittles, but I've never tried this whole drank thing they are used for.

The skittles and watermelon snapple as ingredients for sizzurp is a fabrication that was being "reported" by someone with an agenda. Sizzurp is made with sprite or mountain dew, cough syrup and jolly ranchers, not skittles or snapple or whatever TM had on him that night.

 

[GoIrish41]

The media and politicians brought race into this tragedy. There are thousands of black men murdered every year and 91% of those are by other black men. Can anyone explain to me why those are not all over the news and why there are not protests in the streets over those? Any loss of life is a tragedy yet they have made Mr. Martin's seem like it was the only one that actually mattered.

You know what? The percentage of white peopled murdered by white people is 86%. Nobody is bringing up the tragedy that is white on white crime. Most people who get killed are killed by a member of their own race. Nothing at all to do with this case.

 

[Rhode Irish]

The media and politicians brought race into this tragedy. There are thousands of black men murdered every year and 91% of those are by other black men. Can anyone explain to me why those are not all over the news and why there are not protests in the streets over those? Any loss of life is a tragedy yet they have made Mr. Martin's seem like it was the only one that actually mattered.

The outrage here was that the police knew the identity of the shooter and appeared content to take him at his word and not investigate the incident.

 

[T Town Tommy]

The outrage here was that the police knew the identity of the shooter and appeared content to take him at his word and not investigate the incident.

Maybe you should step away, take a break, and then go back and read several of your recent posts. Sadly it appears they are getting farther and farther on the fringe.

 

[GoIrish41]

Maybe you should step away, take a break, and then go back and read several of your recent posts. Sadly it appears they are getting farther and farther on the fringe.

why is what he said on the fringe?

 

[T Town Tommy]

why is what he said on the fringe?

The police did a very thorough investigation of the incident. I don't think the police investigation is in question here.

 

[GoIrish41]

The police did a very thorough investigation of the incident. I don't think the police investigation is in question here.

eventually they did a thorough investigation perhaps but not right away. he killed a kid and the cops knew he killed a kid and he slept in his own bed that night

 

[FLDomer]

eventually they did a thorough investigation perhaps but not right away. he killed a kid and the cops knew he killed a kid and he slept in his own bed that night

I have read and heard around here the police did do a thorough investigation from the start and saw no reason to arrest GZ on the info/evidence they found (prime example of little arrest worthy evidence is the prosecutions amazingly weak case at the trial). It was not till pressure from the bigger whigs (Corey appeasing the mob (know you love that word) ...) that the arrest happened.

 

[Cackalacky]

See, i dont think its wrong for Zimmerman to be suspicious of someone out in the neighborhood at night after the break ins.

Neither do I. Suspicion is one thing.....

I feel as if TM would have just answered his questions or talk with Zimmerman to explain what hes doing then it would have been OK.

Thats a bit naive and all depends on the "interrogator's" actions.

If someone tried to stop you in your neighborhood to ask what youre doing you could talk it out, i dont see why it would be necessary to tell someone to get away or to attack them.

Once again, a bit naive, but I agree a conversation could be had with cooler heads. That obviously was not the case here.

To clarify, I am trained in self defense and am a pacifist and would under most circumstances remove my self from the situation. If placed in the proverbial corner, my actions would be different if continually harassed.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I have read and heard around here the police did do a thorough investigation from the start and saw no reason to arrest GZ on the info/evidence they found (prime example of little arrest worthy evidence is the prosecutions amazingly weak case at the trial). It was not till pressure from the bigger whigs (Corey appeasing the mob (know you love that word) ...) that the arrest happened.

Clearly you think so, but not everyone agrees. I'm not sure what I said that you're taking exception to. It seems like disagreeing with me is a perfunctory response for you, but I'm just explaining why this case caught people's attention. As someone pointed out previously, there are many killings every day. What made this one a scandal is that the police knew who the shooter was and accepted his self defense story at face value. I would counter your contention that the weak prosecution was evidence that the police were right not to investigate with the contention that had the police done their jobs from the outset the state would have had a better chance to win in court. All the delay clearly helped the defendant get his ducks in a row with respect to concocting a defense strategy and coach his friends about what he needed them to say in their testimony. Further, the prosecution erred by introducing all of Zimmerman's public statements in the aftermath of the incident into evidence (in order to highlight inconsistencies), but that strategy backfired because it allowed the defense to get his version of events into evidence without him taking the stand. Had he been arrested the night of the incident as he should have been, that would not have happened.

 

[GoIrish41]

I have read and heard around here the police did do a thorough investigation from the start and saw no reason to arrest GZ on the info/evidence they found (prime example of little arrest worthy evidence is the prosecutions amazingly weak case at the trial). It was not till pressure from the bigger whigs (Corey appeasing the mob (know you love that word) ...) that the arrest happened.

The suggestion that RI made is about the outrage, and it was suggested that that was somehow a fringe position. The fact that their was a "mob," which you are right, I don't care for much, tells me that RI was spot on in his comments. How thorough an investigation could have happened the night of the shooting? Seems the investigation was listening to Zimmerman's story and making the determination that it sounded reasonable enough, and letting him go home. That, IMHO, is cause enough for outrage. That it went on for 44 more days without an arrest certainly fanned those flames of outrage until the entire country formed an opinion. I would guess that the country is fairly evenly split on who is at fault in this case. It would have never gotten to that point if the police didn't seem to be mailing it in from the beginning. The investigation continued and more evidence was gathered. Your opinion is that the prosecution didn't have anything to work with and that is why they lost the case. I would argue that there was plenty there to work with, and that they just weren't very good lawyers and THAT is why they lost the case.

 

[FLDomer]

Clearly you think so, but not everyone agrees. I'm not sure what I said that you're taking exception to. It seems like disagreeing with me is a perfunctory response for you, but I'm just explaining why this case caught people's attention. As someone pointed out previously, there are many killings every day. What made this one a scandal is that the police knew who the shooter was and accepted his self defense story at face value. I would counter your contention that the weak prosecution was evidence that the police were right not to investigate with the contention that had the police done their jobs from the outset the state would have had a better chance to win in court. All the delay clearly helped the defendant get his ducks in a row with respect to concocting a defense strategy and coach his friends about what he needed them to say in their testimony. Further, the prosecution erred by introducing all of Zimmerman's public statements in the aftermath of the incident into evidence (in order to highlight inconsistencies), but that strategy backfired because it allowed the defense to get his version of events into evidence without him taking the stand. Had he been arrested the night of the incident as he should have been, that would not have happened.

Wow, bro check who I quoted!!! I have said **** to you, it was to the calmer GoIrish so no, "perfunctory response" here. Chill bro. I going back to not posting in this thread...jeeeeezzz

 

[Rhode Irish]

Ha my bad dude. Thought I was quoting T Town Tommy. Haha. My apologies.

 

[kmoose]

First he was an innocent guy. 2nd the initial aggressor was GZ following him. Is it possible that TM started the actual physical fight? Yes it is, but the GZ stalking him is what starts the whole **** storm.

Also according to you, the person being stalked is at fault for the situation not the stalker?
Lets change the story a little. A teenage girl is walking home and a guy starts following her. She tries to get away but he keeps following her, so she turns around and uses a stun gun on him? Who is at fault? The girl being followed or the guy following her?

Thanks for not answering my question. Is that because you can't think of a reason why someone who is completely innocent wouldn't just go inside and remove themselves from the situation?

I'm saying that the person who started the physical confrontation is mostly responsible for Trayvon being dead. Going by your example, you are assuming that Trayvon tried to get away from Zimmerman. Is it your contention that Trayvon, who is 5'11", ~160 lbs., somewhat athletic looking, and 17 years old, couldn't outrun a nearly 30 year old Zimmerman, who is 5' 7" and ~185? If he was looking to get away from Zimmerman, then, again, why didn't he just go inside?

 

[GoIrish41]

Thanks for not answering my question. Is that because you can't think of a reason why someone who is completely innocent wouldn't just go inside and remove themselves from the situation?

I'm saying that the person who started the physical confrontation is mostly responsible for Trayvon being dead. Going by your example, you are assuming that Trayvon tried to get away from Zimmerman. Is it your contention that Trayvon, who is 5'11", ~160 lbs., somewhat athletic looking, and 17 years old, couldn't outrun a nearly 30 year old Zimmerman, who is 5' 7" and ~185? If he was looking to get away from Zimmerman, then, again, why didn't he just go inside?

If a creep was following me around, I wouldn't lead him to my doorstep where the only other person home was a 12-year-old boy.

 

[kmoose]

If a creep was following me around, I wouldn't lead him to my doorstep where the only other person home was a 12-year-old boy.

And yet, Trayvon did. He was already standing in front of his father's fiancée's place, when the initial confrontation supposedly took place. Why didn't he call 911, instead of his girlfriend, when he thought someone was following him?

 

[jmurphy75]

The outrage here was that the police knew the identity of the shooter and appeared content to take him at his word and not investigate the incident.

I think you're right this is how it started but was VERY quickly spun into it was a white shooter and black victim as to why there was no investigation.

 

[GoIrish41]

And yet, Trayvon did. He was already standing in front of his father's fiancée's place, when the initial confrontation supposedly took place. Why didn't he call 911, instead of his girlfriend, when he thought someone was following him?

Are you assuming that Zimmerman knew he was staying there? If so, then why the heck was he following him in the first place? I don't want to bring race into this, but young black men don't typically reach out to the police. A long history of racial discrimination by authority figures has conditioned them to avoid the police because there will always be a presumption that they are somehow guilty of something. I'm not saying it is right, but to ignore that cultural fact is to be naive. I'm reminded of a very funny comedy routine by Dave Chappel that speaks to this very issue. So, it is not uncommon for a young black man to not call the police -- indeed I would say it is the norm. Que all the folks who are going to claim that I'm making this into a race issue. I'm not. I think I have stated often that this case has little to do with race, but let's not ignore the world that we live in either.

 

[kmoose]

Are you assuming that Zimmerman knew he was staying there? If so, then why the heck was he following him in the first place? I don't want to bring race into this, but young black men don't typically reach out to the police. A long history of racial discrimination by authority figures has conditioned them to avoid the police because there will always be a presumption that they are somehow guilty of something. I'm not saying it is right, but to ignore that cultural fact is to be naive. I'm reminded of a very funny comedy routine by Dave Chappel that speaks to this very issue. So, it is not uncommon for a young black man to not call the police -- indeed I would say it is the norm. Que all the folks who are going to claim that I'm making this into a race issue. I'm not. I think I have stated often that this case has little to do with race, but let's not ignore the world that we live in either.

What does whether or not Zimmerman knew he was staying there have to do with anything? I said he should have gone home and gone inside, you said that you would not have led him back to the place where you were staying, with only a 12 year old boy at home. Yet Martin did just that. If he was really concerned about his safety, why stay outside? Why not put a locked door between you and the guy following you? And people think Zimmerman's words don't make sense?

 

[pkt77242]

Thanks for not answering my question. Is that because you can't think of a reason why someone who is completely innocent wouldn't just go inside and remove themselves from the situation?

I'm saying that the person who started the physical confrontation is mostly responsible for Trayvon being dead. Going by your example, you are assuming that Trayvon tried to get away from Zimmerman. Is it your contention that Trayvon, who is 5'11", ~160 lbs., somewhat athletic looking, and 17 years old, couldn't outrun a nearly 30 year old Zimmerman, who is 5' 7" and ~185? If he was looking to get away from Zimmerman, then, again, why didn't he just go inside?

First off GZ was in a car to start. Rather hard to outrun a car. 2nd I would say the person who was doing the stalking is mainly at fault for TM being dead. Sorry that is where I disagree with you.

 

[pkt77242]

Thanks for not answering my question. Is that because you can't think of a reason why someone who is completely innocent wouldn't just go inside and remove themselves from the situation?

I'm saying that the person who started the physical confrontation is mostly responsible for Trayvon being dead. Going by your example, you are assuming that Trayvon tried to get away from Zimmerman. Is it your contention that Trayvon, who is 5'11", ~160 lbs., somewhat athletic looking, and 17 years old, couldn't outrun a nearly 30 year old Zimmerman, who is 5' 7" and ~185? If he was looking to get away from Zimmerman, then, again, why didn't he just go inside?

You wan an answer for your question? He shouldn't have had to go into the house. He was doing nothing wrong. You want to place blame on a 17yo for making a questionable decision ( that he never should have been put in a place to make) but you seem to be giving a pass to the horrible decision making of an adult. That makes no sense.