Cuba, spring break 2015

[wizards8507]

And a KFC. A Double Down in every hand!

Is that a sex thing?

 

[Irish#1]

Castro and the Cuban government have always been a puppet of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is the only reason Cuba's economy has survived this long. Until Castro, his brother and anyone closely tied to them are gone there will always be a communist lean in Cuba. Opening up trade relations is going to be a good thing. The Castro's won't be able to cover up as much of the unlawful killings and imprisonment they are famous for. The media will start reporting first hand details of things covered up for many years.

 

[BobD]

Rubio does not seem very happy about the plan



Apparently being in power for 50 years doesn't get you "permanent fixture" status until blame Obama.

 

[phgreek]

What a shocker that you can't provide a real reason why we shouldn't have normal relations with them. Who gives a shit what a 75 year old Cuban would say, is that what the US should base foreign policy off of? We have normal relations with many countries that are as bad or worse to their citizens (China, Saudia Arabia, etc), but God forbid that we have normal relations with Cuba.

Again, can you give a real reason that we shouldn't have normal relations with Cuba? Can you give any concrete examples of how our previous policies (embargo, no travel, etc) towards them have improved the lives of Cuban's who live there?

Couple components here...but lets focus on the part you seem to be locked-in on...

So by your logic then, since we have chosen to recognize other bad actors, we should recognize Cuba...

There are so many other factors to consider here which would define a strategic impetus for having a relationship with a country. I care about long term benefit to the US, and the people in those countries. China and Saudi are vastly different from a strategy perspective than Cuba, causing us to have prioritized a relationship with them a little differently. We can spend pages talking about the vision regarding those who chose that path, or we can recognize that comparing them only on the basis of having poor human rights is overly simplistic.

I don't see a relationship with Cuba as any kind of imperative at this place in time...

Now...I care about 75 year old Cubans for the perspective they bring...and that perspective is Castros are bad for everyone. Time, and some weird Che' and Castro hero movement from non-Cuban academics has kinda clouded that issue, and recolored the history a bit. These were/are evil people who have no current value to the US, and helping them perpetuates that evil. Allowing them to die off with the country struggling, I think would open the door for the kind of change we want, without active nation building. Having just stood back and let that happen is what I think was the no-brainer here.

it is clear, having engaged with them pisses me off...having engaged with them in such a way as to appear to again be in the business of being extorted, and trading lawfully prosecuted criminals for an out-and-out hostage...thats just bad...and you know it.

I get to not like Mr. Obama's decision here. I am perfectly comfortable with my basis for doing so. You can have a red ass about it...I'm not moved.

 

[phgreek]

Castro and the Cuban government have always been a puppet of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is the only reason Cuba's economy has survived this long. Until Castro, his brother and anyone closely tied to them are gone there will always be a communist lean in Cuba. Opening up trade relations is going to be a good thing. The Castro's won't be able to cover up as much of the unlawful killings and imprisonment they are famous for. The media will start reporting first hand details of things covered up for many years.

I understand the logic/theory here...but I can't get to the practice. What media, how?

 

[pkt77242]

Couple components here...but lets focus on the part you seem to be locked-in on...

So by your logic then, since we have chosen to recognize other bad actors, we should recognize Cuba...

There are so many other factors to consider here which would define a strategic impetus for having a relationship with a country. I care about long term benefit to the US, and the people in those countries. China and Saudi are vastly different from a strategy perspective than Cuba, causing us to have prioritized a relationship with them a little differently. We can spend pages talking about the vision regarding those who chose that path, or we can recognize that comparing them only on the basis of having poor human rights is overly simplistic.

I don't see a relationship with Cuba as any kind of imperative at this place in time...

Now...I care about 75 year old Cubans for the perspective they bring...and that perspective is Castros are bad for everyone. Time, and some weird Che' and Castro hero movement from non-Cuban academics has kinda clouded that issue, and recolored the history a bit. These were/are evil people who have no current value to the US, and helping them perpetuates that evil. Allowing them to die off with the country struggling, I think would open the door for the kind of change we want, without active nation building. Having just stood back and let that happen is what I think was the no-brainer here.

it is clear, having engaged with them pisses me off...having engaged with them in such a way as to appear to again be in the business of being extorted, and trading lawfully prosecuted criminals for an out-and-out hostage...thats just bad...and you know it.

I get to not like Mr. Obama's decision here. I am perfectly comfortable with my basis for doing so. You can have a red ass about it...I'm not moved.

You don't have to like the decision, personally I could give a shit about what you like or not.

You have still failed to post one positive thing that the embargo and lack or relations with the US has done for the Cuban people still living there?

To put it another way, we have better diplomatic relations with Venezuela then we do with Cuba. We trade relatively freely with Venezuela (except for military equipment and our government won't buy oil or gas from their state run company). We maintain an embassy there (though there is no ambassador).

The best way to change Cuba is to flood them with US things, which we can't do because of the embargo. Let them have, the better internet, Twitter, Facebook, Google searches, (for everyone, very few have the internet currently) etc. Lets give them Mcdonalds, Starbucks, and some good old American factories.

Think about it from a standpoint of defending the US. With Russia being provocative, do you really want someone who hates us and is good friends with them 90 miles off our coast? Or would it be better if we had significantly improved relations with them. If we were the one importing food to feed their families, or gas for their cars.

No one on here is Arguing that the Castro's are "good people" we are just arguing that normalizing relations with Cuba is good for the regular people of Cuba, and that if the embargo didn't change shit for 55 years, maybe it is time to try something different.

 

[Irish#1]

I understand the logic/theory here...but I can't get to the practice. What media, how?

When trade and travel is opened up, the media is going to spend a lot of time down there learning everything they can about Cuba. What do the people really think? Are the various rumors heard over the years true? Besides cigars, what other exports does Cuba offer? What cities will be key vacation destinations? How old and crumbling is the infrastructure? It will be like kids who have only seen Disney World from afar and now finally have tickets to get in.

 

[wizards8507]

What do the people really think?

Great, now I can move to Miami.

Are the various rumors heard over the years true?

Yes.

Besides cigars, what other exports does Cuba offer?

None.

What cities will be key vacation destinations?

None.

How old and crumbling is the infrastructure?

Very.

I just saved "the media" the price of a plane ticket. You're welcome.

 

[phgreek]

You don't have to like the decision, personally I could give a shit about what you like or not.

You have still failed to post one positive thing that the embargo and lack or relations with the US has done for the Cuban people still living there?

To put it another way, we have better diplomatic relations with Venezuela then we do with Cuba. We trade relatively freely with Venezuela (except for military equipment and our government won't buy oil or gas from their state run company). We maintain an embassy there (though there is no ambassador).

The best way to change Cuba is to flood them with US things, which we can't do because of the embargo. Let them have, the better internet, Twitter, Facebook, Google searches, (for everyone, very few have the internet currently) etc. Lets give them Mcdonalds, Starbucks, and some good old American factories.

Think about it from a standpoint of defending the US. With Russia being provocative, do you really want someone who hates us and is good friends with them 90 miles off our coast? Or would it be better if we had significantly improved relations with them. If we were the one importing food to feed their families, or gas for their cars.

No one on here is Arguing that the Castro's are "good people" we are just arguing that normalizing relations with Cuba is good for the regular people of Cuba, and that if the embargo didn't change shit for 55 years, maybe it is time to try something different.

I clearly explained why doing nothing at this point in time is better in my view...

You frame the argument such that in order to play I need to provide a laundry list of benefits regarding embargo...when the nature of embargos is to force the other side to bargain in a way you believe productive...Cuba never did. The embargo has a long term vision it is trying to achieve...until it is achieved, it just is. There are no intrinsic benefits that I know of that merit an accounting...so making that a requirement in an argument is really just looking for a false cause to terminate the discussion...as if to say I'm being unresponsive.

There may well have been times in the last 50 years where it may have made sense...but none come to my mind...

The only thing you've said that makes sense to me as a potential strategic impetus is the "Cuban Missile crisis" logic...and I don't see it as a real concern at this point in time.

I notice you avoid the criminal for hostage program in all of this...is there a reason? Or is that just uncomfortable, and too hard to manipulate into a question/demand that is a dead end?

 

[phgreek]

When trade and travel is opened up, the media is going to spend a lot of time down there learning everything they can about Cuba. What do the people really think? Are the various rumors heard over the years true? Besides cigars, what other exports does Cuba offer? What cities will be key vacation destinations? How old and crumbling is the infrastructure? It will be like kids who have only seen Disney World from afar and now finally have tickets to get in.

When do you see that happening?

 

[pkt77242]

I clearly explained why doing nothing at this point in time is better in my view...

You frame the argument such that in order to play I need to provide a laundry list of benefits regarding embargo...when the nature of embargos is to force the other side to bargain in a way you believe productive...Cuba never did. The embargo has a long term vision it is trying to achieve...until it is achieved, it just is. There are no intrinsic benefits that I know of that merit an accounting...so making that a requirement in an argument is really just looking for a false cause to terminate the discussion...as if to say I'm being unresponsive.

There may well have been times in the last 50 years where it may have made sense...but none come to my mind...

The only thing you've said that makes sense to me as a potential strategic impetus is the "Cuban Missile crisis" logic...and I don't see it as a real concern at this point in time.

I notice you avoid the criminal for hostage program in all of this...is there a reason? Or is that just uncomfortable, and too hard to manipulate into a question/demand that is a dead end?

You posted this

I suppose you'd see the embargo as not helping the Cuban people

So yes I wanted to know how you thought that the embargo helped the Cuban people since you stated that I didn't see it as helping them.

The problem is that after 55 years the embargo had changed nothing. Why not try a different tactic. As the saying goes "insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results".

Technically we gave 3 spies to get 1 spy and Gross was a humanitarian gesture, but yes it does look like we traded 3 spies for 1 spy and Gross. You keep leaving out the one spy we got in return as well. You keep framing it as if we only got Gross in return and not the other spy. Does it make you uncomfortable that we got more then Gross back?

 

[wizards8507]

I wonder how many IE posters are thrilled that we gave into a totalitarian regime in Cuba and simultaneously pissed that we gave into a totalitarian regime in North Korea.

 

[Irish#1]

When do you see that happening?

I have no clue, but I'm guessing Obama does. There's probably negotiations still going on as to the location of the embassy, timeline, etc..

You posted this


So yes I wanted to know how you thought that the embargo helped the Cuban people since you stated that I didn't see it as helping them.

The problem is that after 55 years the embargo had changed nothing. Why not try a different tactic. As the saying goes "insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results".

Technically we gave 3 spies to get 1 spy and Gross was a humanitarian gesture, but yes it does look like we traded 3 spies for 1 spy and Gross. You keep leaving out the one spy we got in return as well. You keep framing it as if we only got Gross in return and not the other spy. Does it make you uncomfortable that we got more then Gross back?

I'm not sure we really know the answer to that. It was a lot cheaper for Cuba to get exports from the US then most other countries. I think their infrastructure might be in better shape now if there had never been an embargo. How much better? I don't know.

 

[pkt77242]

I wonder how many IE posters are thrilled that we gave into a totalitarian regime in Cuba and simultaneously pissed that we gave into a totalitarian regime in North Korea.

Those two things are not even remotely similar.

A. Private company gives in after being harmed by a foreign government and being threatened with a terrorist attack.

B. Government decides to start normalizing relations with a country that hasn't been a threat to us in a long time.

To pretend like A and B are the same or similar is ridiculous.

 

[phgreek]

You posted this


So yes I wanted to know how you thought that the embargo helped the Cuban people since you stated that I didn't see it as helping them.

The problem is that after 55 years the embargo had changed nothing. Why not try a different tactic. As the saying goes "insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results".

Technically we gave 3 spies to get 1 spy and Gross was a humanitarian gesture, but yes it does look like we traded 3 spies for 1 spy and Gross. You keep leaving out the one spy we got in return as well. You keep framing it as if we only got Gross in return and not the other spy. Does it make you uncomfortable that we got more then Gross back?

When you post the entire sentence I wrote...

"Well, if you have the mindset that the Castro regime isn't all that bad, I suppose you'd see the embargo as not helping the Cuban people..."

I think it is clear the context would tell ya the intent was not to list immediate things the embargo brings to help people, but rather to allude to a longer term vision that does not include Castros...and the embargo being the means to that end...and that end would indeed help Cubans. That said, I'll grudgingly accept that could be taken other than intended...

I know about the supposed spy we got; I know about the civilian we got; neither conspired to crash a plane, or kill anyone...neither committed any crime, per se, other than they were assumed to be spies.

The message is, grab Americans of any sort, and trade for people involved in mass murder etc. Even if you drop the hardline stance on this, and accept that there could be a good trade for mass murderers, this wasn't. Not a good trade, not a good precedent, and not a good basis for setting the table for future negotiations. I'm sure the "spy" we got in return is, according to the administration, the american James Bond, because really, what are they going to say...ooops, we did it again?

 

[pkt77242]

I have no clue, but I'm guessing Obama does. There's probably negotiations still going on as to the location of the embassy, timeline, etc..



I'm not sure we really know the answer to that. It was a lot cheaper for Cuba to get exports from the US then most other countries. I think their infrastructure might be in better shape now if there had never been an embargo. How much better? I don't know.

I meant more from the standpoint of the Castros still being in power and that Cuba is still a communist country (I should have been more clear). Though you bring up a great point that the people being harmed most by the embargo is the Cuban people. It isn't like Castro is living in poverty.

 

[pkt77242]

When you post the entire sentence I wrote...

"Well, if you have the mindset that the Castro regime isn't all that bad, I suppose you'd see the embargo as not helping the Cuban people..."

I think it is clear the context would tell ya the intent was not to list immediate things the embargo brings to help people, but rather to allude to a longer term vision that does not include Castros...and the embargo being the means to that end...and that end would indeed help Cubans. That said, I'll grudgingly accept that could be taken other than intended...

I know about the supposed spy we got; I know about the civilian we got; neither conspired to crash a plane, or kill anyone...neither committed any crime, per se, other than they were assumed to be spies.

The message is, grab Americans of any sort, and trade for people involved in mass murder etc. Even if you drop the hardline stance on this, and accept that there could be a good trade for mass murderers, this wasn't. Not a good trade, not a good precedent, and not a good basis for setting the table for future negotiations. I'm sure the "spy" we got in return is, according to the administration, the american James Bond, because really, what are they going to say...ooops, we did it again?

As far as a long-term vision the embargo was supposed to get Castro out of power and it has failed miserably. My point is what good has it actually done then, since the long-term vision has failed (well old age will eventually take care of it but no thanks to the embargo). Can you not see that the Embargo has failed miserably at its intended purpose?

The spy we got in trade was a Cuban national not an American who was spying for us. That doesn't equate to grab an American.

Also I know that you earlier commented on the lack of freedom of the press but part of the agreement is that US companies will help expand access to the internet in Cuba which is a positive step, while it doesn't equate to freedom of the press it will more easily allow the flow of information both in and out of Cuba.

 

[wizards8507]

B. Government decides to start normalizing relations with a country that hasn't been a threat to us in a long time.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ioPa1URjZ_Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[phgreek]

I have no clue, but I'm guessing Obama does. There's probably negotiations still going on as to the location of the embassy, timeline, etc..



I'm not sure we really know the answer to that. It was a lot cheaper for Cuba to get exports from the US then most other countries. I think their infrastructure might be in better shape now if there had never been an embargo. How much better? I don't know.

maybe so...I just don't agree with moving forward w/o real concessions enumerated on paper, and dates to mark progress, and some progress made BEFORE we show faith.

 

[dshans]

The travel band is great live.

¡The light show is increíble!

 

[pkt77242]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ioPa1URjZ_Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

As usual you bring nothing constructive to the debate. I think you just enjoy agitating people.

 

[wizards8507]

As usual you bring nothing constructive to the debate. I think you just enjoy agitating people.

Stop. You hurt my feelings.

Since sarcasm eludes you, I'll try and be extra explicit. I think you're crazy if you don't think the Cuban regime is a threat to us and our way of life.

EDIT: Serious question. How would you have felt about the US having "normalized relations" with South Africa during apartheid? I'm guessing you wouldn't have been so happy about that. No, it's cool to sanction countries that oppress their communists but when the communists are the oppressors we better have "normalized relations" with them.

 

[dshans]

Cuba exported goods worth $3.253 billion in 2009, according to the latest estimates. This was lower than the 2008 figure of $3.68 billion. The island nation exported sugar, nickel, tobacco, fish, medical products, citrus and coffee. Amongst its various trading partners, nearly 28% of the exports were to Canada, 27% to China, 6% to China and over 5% to the Netherlands.


Then there were Doctors, Lawyers and other professionals in the late '50's and early '60's.

Don't forget Rickie Ricardo, Xavier Cugat, music in general and basebol players.

I'll leave the Marielitos to a different discussion.

Initially Fidel was viewed by the US as a puppet solution to Crime Syndicates allowed to operate outside of American jurisdiction with the blessings (bought and paid for) of the Batiste regime.

"Intel" on Fidel's intentions was lax or ignored in the interest of expediency.

What's the appropriate term? "Biting one in the ass?" My point? Had the US exerted political and economic pressure on Batiste –as well as criminal pressure on American "players") the whole situation might have been avoided.

 

[phgreek]

As far as a long-term vision the embargo was supposed to get Castro out of power and it has failed miserably. My point is what good has it actually done then, since the long-term vision has failed (well old age will eventually take care of it but no thanks to the embargo). Can you not see that the Embargo has failed miserably at its intended purpose?

And my point was maybe there was a time in the past where the embargo didn't make sense...but given the age of the Castros and financial stress...it makes the most sense now. So saying 55 years of embargo has failed...well it is not the right argument in my eyes...the next 5 make infinite sense to me regardless of how dumb the last 55 were because I believe the simultaneous passage of the Castros, and the promise of immediate and massive economic and human condition improvements (freedom of press, education, etc) changes the game drastically and immediately...and looks more like what I think Cubans seem to want...

The spy we got in trade was a Cuban national not an American who was spying for us. That doesn't equate to grab an American.

I had heard that but did not confirm...however, no bearing on perception in my book...He was of American interest, and he was not a mass murderer...yet he was accepted in return for conspirators to mass murder. I think the argument could break either way re: if it is better or worse for abducting Americans considering that he wasn't actually American. Because apparently you don't even have to be American, just of interest to America to give political justification to a bad deal...may drive up the "cost" for an actual American and seemingly make the deals this administration negotiates...worse, and certainly does nothing to refute the notion that nabbing Americans is worth it.

Also I know that you earlier commented on the lack of freedom of the press but part of the agreement is that US companies will help expand access to the internet in Cuba which is a positive step, while it doesn't equate to freedom of the press it will more easily allow the flow of information both in and out of Cuba.

[I]OK, but still theoretical...I think you may see internet services in a very, very limited fashion in terms of modes and content...more like a Cuban Intranet at first then slowly expanding to very managed content and capability. None of which will constitute any kind of Free press...you MAY get a rogue tidbit here and there which is better than nothing...but I'm thinking all we had to do was nothing to get a much, much better situation. Also, what prevents our companies from building out the infrastructure, and then getting booted out? In that case I would worry about Russians creating a problem for us if we upgrade all the com infrastructure...and it costs them nothing to do so...there is still risk here with what appears no actionable plan...[/I]

..

 

[Irish#1]

I meant more from the standpoint of the Castros still being in power and that Cuba is still a communist country (I should have been more clear). Though you bring up a great point that the people being harmed most by the embargo is the Cuban people. It isn't like Castro is living in poverty.

Castro has lived a nice life while the country languishes in poverty. He's ruled by military intimidation so the people are afraid to speak out for fear of being killed. Most thought Fidel would have died 10-15 years ago. I thought I read a few years back that his health is pretty bad, so maybe he doesn't last too much longer. His brother Raul is 83 and has been running things for the last 10 years or so. At 83, his time should be nearing an end as well.

Maybe we can hatch a plan to assassinate them both! LOL

 

[phgreek]

Cuba exported goods worth $3.253 billion in 2009, according to the latest estimates. This was lower than the 2008 figure of $3.68 billion. The island nation exported sugar, nickel, tobacco, fish, medical products, citrus and coffee. Amongst its various trading partners, nearly 28% of the exports were to Canada, 27% to China, 6% to China and over 5% to the Netherlands.


Then there were Doctors, Lawyers and other professionals in the late '50's and early '60's.

Don't forget Rickie Ricardo, Xavier Cugat, music in general and basebol players.

I'll leave the Marielitos to a different discussion.

Initially Fidel was viewed by the US as a puppet solution to Crime Syndicates allowed to operate outside of American jurisdiction with the blessings (bought and paid for) of the Batiste regime.

"Intel" on Fidel's intentions was lax or ignored in the interest of expediency.

What's the appropriate term? "Biting one in the ass?" My point? Had the US exerted political and economic pressure on Batiste –as criminal pressure on American "players") the whole situation might have been avoided.

No real argument on your take re: the origin of the Castro we got...

 

[IrishinSyria]

Stop. You hurt my feelings.

Since sarcasm eludes you, I'll try and be extra explicit. I think you're crazy if you don't think the Cuban regime is a threat to us and our way of life.

EDIT: Serious question. How would you have felt about the US having "normalized relations" with South Africa during apartheid? I'm guessing you wouldn't have been so happy about that. No, it's cool to sanction countries that oppress their communists but when the communists are the oppressors we better have "normalized relations" with them.

The Cuban regime is a threat to the American way of life? How?

 

[pkt77242]

Stop. You hurt my feelings.

Since sarcasm eludes you, I'll try and be extra explicit. I think you're crazy if you don't think the Cuban regime is a threat to us and our way of life.

EDIT: Serious question. How would you have felt about the US having "normalized relations" with South Africa during apartheid? I'm guessing you wouldn't have been so happy about that. No, it's cool to sanction countries that oppress their communists but when the communists are the oppressors we better have "normalized relations" with them.

Again, what makes Cuba a threat to us and our way of life? It is great that you can throw out statements like that but what in the last 10-15 years makes you think that Cuba is a threat to our way of life?

By your notion at the bottom we shouldn't have ties with China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and many other countries (including Venezuela where we still have an embassy). The whole idea that because they are communist or oppress their citizens, we shouldn't deal with them is ridiculous.

Not sure where you are going with Apartheid, it was more about racial segregation (minority whites maintaining power by keeping the majority blacks down) then communism. My issue with South Africa during apartheid is more about race then keeping communists down. Who gives a shit if they keep communists down, and if you are talking about the Suppression of Communism Act 44 of 1950 then it was more about suppressing groups that were railing against segregation and apartheid then it was about stopping communism.

Edit: Canada has normal relations with Cuba and I don't see it being a threat to their existence and way of life (Even the EU has relations with Cuba).

 

[phgreek]

The Cuban regime is a threat to the American way of life? How?

I didn't see them as a threat in the "imminent destruction" sense...but until VERY recently they were, shall we say, not big fans of the USA. Couple that with the fact that they flat kicked our ass in the intel/spy game if what I've read about our fail rate w/ double agents is true...I think they at least deserved some attention/respect...

Now, they are huge fans of Uncle Shaky...can ya blame them though...I mean I have ALWAYS loved people who would lick my balls for free...Suspect Castro(s) feel the same love right now...

 

[dshans]

... Now, they are huge fans of Uncle Shaky...can ya blame them though...I mean I have ALWAYS loved people who would lick my balls for free...Suspect Castro(s) feel the same love right now...

Holy shit!

Have you applied for a position in the US Diplomatic Corps? The CIA?

I'm sure that they're drooling at the thought of licking your balls.

You would be a valuable asset.



Holy shit!