Crist vs Rees

[IrishJayhawk]

This is a well reasoned, well thought out post. I don't disagree with anything you said. OMM, NDinLa and others have also made very good points to the same effect.

Me, right? You mean me?

 

[NDinL.A.]

So Crist should be held accountable for one half of poor football that consisted of a running back being stripped of the football around the one yard line and numerous back breaking drops. I guess it was also Crist's fault that Roddick muffed the punt as well. I guess it was Crist's fault that Turk couldn't punt for more than 30 yards that game. Yet Rees would have won that game if this and if that. We can play if this and if that until the cows come home but the issue for me is not who should be starting but that one player(Crist) is being held to a different set of standards.

If you won't bench Rees for consistently turning the ball over, who will you bench and for what? If mediocre play is acceptable for Rees, how can you demand more out of other players? It establishes a disconcerting precedent for the team.

You're missing my point. When things go bad for Crist, he folds. MSU 4th quarter - awful, and a huge fumble. Stanford, once they got the lead, he was under 50% and just bad (the whole team was bad that day). Navy - once he didn't get into the endzone on the sneak, he SUCKED. USF - once the fumble happened, he SUCKED. Zero points in the half, while Tommy got 20.

When the chips are down, Tommy comes through. He just does. That cannot even be argued. He had that awful pass vs. Tulsa when he was thrust into the game, and since then the kid just makes plays when it counts. Thus the 6-1 record as a starter.

I'm not arguing that he hasn't played poorly at all. I'm just saying, you can't make that change yet, not at this time riding a 2 game winning streak. If Crist was better when the chips were down, I'd say he should have been starting vs. Michigan. But he's not. He's a great front-runner, but awful from behind.

I just don't see who the better alternative is...right now. And if Rees stinks it up vs. Purdue and we're losing badly, I'd be all for a switch. Hell, I was so pissed at Rees vs. Pitt that I was calling for a swicth too! Thank God Kelly didn't hear me LOL.

 

[kmoose]

So Crist should be held accountable for one half of poor football that consisted of a running back being stripped of the football around the one yard line and numerous back breaking drops. I guess it was also Crist's fault that Roddick muffed the punt as well. I guess it was Crist's fault that Turk couldn't punt for more than 30 yards that game. Yet Rees would have won that game if this and if that. We can play if this and if that until the cows come home but the issue for me is not who should be starting but that one player(Crist) is being held to a different set of standards.

If you won't bench Rees for consistently turning the ball over, who will you bench and for what? If mediocre play is acceptable for Rees, how can you demand more out of other players? It establishes a disconcerting precedent for the team.

People need to stop equating Rees' troubles with Crist's. They're not equal.

Rees QB rating: 133.6
Crist QB rating: 86.5

Maybe one of the reasons that we can accept Rees' turnovers is because we still have a good opportunity to win the game, even with Rees' mistakes. With a QB rating of 86.5, we have little chance of overcoming Dayne's poor performance and winning the game.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

People need to stop equating Rees' troubles with Crist's. They're not equal.

Rees QB rating: 133.6
Crist QB rating: 86.5

Maybe one of the reasons that we can accept Rees' turnovers is because we still have a good opportunity to win the game, even with Rees' mistakes. With a QB rating of 86.5, we have little chance of overcoming Dayne's poor performance and winning the game.

To be fair, Dayne was just under 130 last year. 86.5 is from the first half of the USF game.

 

[IrishinSyria]

People need to stop equating Rees' troubles with Crist's. They're not equal.

Rees QB rating: 133.6
Crist QB rating: 86.5

Maybe one of the reasons that we can accept Rees' turnovers is because we still have a good opportunity to win the game, even with Rees' mistakes. With a QB rating of 86.5, we have little chance of overcoming Dayne's poor performance and winning the game.

What was Rees' QB rating in the first half of the Pitt game? What would it have been if Pitt's d had been able to catch?

 

[irishff1014]

All i know is i have have my reasoing for what crist as the starter. And i don't think Rees could be even close to having his name mentioned in the top QBs in college football. But it quite obvious that 90% think Rees is he man. I will support him as a fan of the team but this is my last comment on Rees/Crist converstion.

 

[kmoose]

To be fair, Dayne was just under 130 last year. 86.5 is from the first half of the USF game.

This year was the object of discussion. Unless I misunderstood what people were people were saying.

And, by the way......... Tommy was OVER 130, last year. Still better.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

Do know how he's actually handled Crist? You don't, do you? Aside from the change none of us know what discussions took place, what progress was to be demonstrated, and how he graded out.

Contrary to the BS that was posted tonight Crist wasn't the clear cut starter. Kelly noted when he named Crist the season starter that he and the staff found NEITHER had won the job. Kelly expounded that he and the staff had kept detailed records on drills and situational performances in practice and NEITHER one had an edge. So he picked one.

Did he flip a coin as the tie breaker? Did he opt for the "man" versus the "boy"? (Crist is 2.5 years older.) Did he chose the more mobile QB? (Well at least before 2 knee surgeries. Is Crist as mobile as Pike now? We know Rees, isn't.) Was it the 5 Stars and HS clippings? (I don't think so either.) Was it based on the rehab effort Crist put forth?

What we do know was Rees did NOT get the job based upon superior height, superior build/muscle, superior arm strength, superior foot speed, lower Interception Percentage, so ...

Why was the preseason competition a dead heat?

I've read hundreds of complaining posts by Kuehnja, Irishff1014, et al, but they can't explain other than 6-5, cannon arm, 5 Stars, upside, upside, upside, why Crist DIDN'T win the job outright with all the advantages he had. No one doubts he has superior talent. So how could there possibly be tie in all those CLOSED practices?

Basic fact at the start of the season, ND did not have clear cut starting QB. That should have been huge red flag for those forecasting not just double digit wins but even a 6-6 season. Go check the forecast threads, not just the Won/Lost record but the Yards Thrown, TDs Thrown, Floyd's and Eifert's numbers (based on Dayne's arm).

Now the same people that were talking Heisman and how we would beat USF by 5 TDs are devastastated that the season is lost.

ND started the season with two #1 QBs due to the deadheat. Twenty years ago Lou Holtz said, "If you have two #1s, you don't have a #1. You have two, #2s."

So I come back to, with all Dayne's superior talent, how could the competition be a dead heat preseason?

Could it be that there was another factor not openly discussed that leveled the playing field? Shortly after The Turning Point started posting on this site he commented on Crist's demeanor or attitude during the '10 Michigan game. He added some comments from some of his teammates. I was stunned. If you go back and look at the thread, I pressed TPO hard as I had read nothing publicaly to substantiate his comments. TPO stood firm.

Syria, you find Kelly pulling Crist at USF halftime harsh. Someone else posted yesterday that Kelly made a "panic decision". Kelly had two hours due to the weather to discuss with his OC and the rest of his staff is he desired, the decision's effect on that game, on the team, and on the season. They choose Rees. After the game Kelly noted that they had discussed that decision with both QBs. It was NOT a snap decision. I'll hazard a guess that Kelly made the preseason decision based on Crist's dogged determination during rehab, and the hope that he had overcome his shortcomings with another year of maturity. BUT they didn't see it on the field in the first half nor under the stadium during the storm delay.

And no, I wasn't there either. I believe the coaching staff thinks that Rees's turnovers can be managed (improved over time) while they didn't see that in the other situation. Kelly and staff didn't make a knee jerk reaction contrary to many here who are demanding a knee jerk reaction be made now.

Rees plays like a backup which is what he was until the other backup either went down or was sat down. But in the coaching staff's eyes he gives the team the best shot to win at this point in the season.

And as IrishJayHawk presented preseason Kelly said there were really two QBs at one level with a big difference to the next level. Look at the difficulty both Crist and Rees had in getting the play called in via the Red Army, calling the play, reading the defense, audiblizing to a new play, moving players, and getting the snap off before a whistle. Both experienced QBs have run out of time more than once. Rookies will be worse in this offense until they get up to speed.

It was more than a panic move. It was a lazy decision. Instead of coaching Crist and making adjustments, he switched QBs. If he felt Crist won the starting QB job, he has to give Crist every opportunity to succeed. You know what it tells me. It tells me that Coach Kelly is a rigid thinker and a poor gameday coach. It can't be his offense. It has to be the personnel. Now he is in a bind. Rees is tough kid but sometimes physical limitations are too much to overcome. What does Kelly do?

 

[koonja]

When you hear people talking about 'what we need to do to win', they never mention QB-rating, it's almost always 'take care of the ball, don't turn it over'.

Tommy= greater than 2 TOs per game. See box scores.

 

[pkt77242]

When you hear people talking about 'what we need to do to win', they never mention QB-rating, it's almost always 'take care of the ball, don't turn it over'.

Tommy= greater than 2 TOs per game. See box scores.

The point you are missing is that there isn't a better option. Most of us aren't arguing that Rees is amazing, we are arguing that he better than our other options.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

You're missing my point. When things go bad for Crist, he folds. MSU 4th quarter - awful, and a huge fumble. Stanford, once they got the lead, he was under 50% and just bad (the whole team was bad that day). Navy - once he didn't get into the endzone on the sneak, he SUCKED. USF - once the fumble happened, he SUCKED. Zero points in the half, while Tommy got 20.

When the chips are down, Tommy comes through. He just does. That cannot even be argued. He had that awful pass vs. Tulsa when he was thrust into the game, and since then the kid just makes plays when it counts. Thus the 6-1 record as a starter.

I'm not arguing that he hasn't played poorly at all. I'm just saying, you can't make that change yet, not at this time riding a 2 game winning streak. If Crist was better when the chips were down, I'd say he should have been starting vs. Michigan. But he's not. He's a great front-runner, but awful from behind.

I just don't see who the better alternative is...right now. And if Rees stinks it up vs. Purdue and we're losing badly, I'd be all for a switch. Hell, I was so pissed at Rees vs. Pitt that I was calling for a swicth too! Thank God Kelly didn't hear me LOL.

I simply do not understand this generalization of Crist as someone who wilts under pressure. He has only played 9 games!!! He has led this team back in the fourth quarter. He has overcome injuries. Crist has become the scapegoat for a lot of the failings of this team. I just don't get it.

My point has been and is, if Crist is not playing well and turning the ball over, bench him. If Rees is not playing well and turning the ball over, bench him. Everyone should be held accountable.

 

[koonja]

I simply do not understand this generalization of Crist as someone who wilts under pressure. He has only played 9 games!!! He has led this team back in the fourth quarter. He has overcome injuries. Crist has become the scapegoat for a lot of the failings of this team. I just don't get it.

My point has been and is, if Crist is not playing well and turning the ball over, bench him. If Rees is not playing well and turning the ball over, bench him. Everyone should be held accountable.

He didn't wilt vs Michigan last year. He played awesome from behind.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My take after reading hundreds of posts on this subject over the last couple days:

Kelly has stated that there's a big gap between Crist/ Rees and Golson/ Hendrix. Thus, neither of the mobile QBs will get a shot at meaningful minutes unless Kelly thinks the season is lost, and needs to start rebuilding for the future. Kelly still thinks we can win now, so it's Crist/ Rees for the foreseeable future.

Between Crist and Rees, the difference is mental toughness. Both are going to turn the ball over; yet one has repeatedly folded under adversity, and the other has repeatedly bounced back and led the team on game-winning/ icing drives (USC, Michigan, State, & Pitt).

That's basically all it comes down to. Hendrix and Golson are lacking the fundamental skills to compete with Rees and Crist for the starting position, and Crist is lacking the mental toughness necessary to play the position. Thus, it's Rees by process of elimination.

 

[pkt77242]

I simply do not understand this generalization of Crist as someone who wilts under pressure. He has only played 9 games!!! He has led this team back in the fourth quarter. He has overcome injuries. Crist has become the scapegoat for a lot of the failings of this team. I just don't get it.

My point has been and is, if Crist is not playing well and turning the ball over, bench him. If Rees is not playing well and turning the ball over, bench him. Everyone should be held accountable.

But you can't keep doing that as you will kill their confidence and have them looking over their shoulder after every bad play. FAIL.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

But you can't keep doing that as you will kill their confidence and have them looking over their shoulder after every bad play. FAIL.

How else do you develop mental toughness? Of course, they should be looking over their shoulders. As in life, there are consequences to bad decisions. Are you serious?

 

[NDinL.A.]

He didn't wilt vs Michigan last year. He played awesome from behind.

And since then? As you said, pure regression. That can't even be argued. When the chips are down, Crist does not step up. He did vs. UM in his 2nd game, and hasn't since. And his body language is atrocious. And I was a big Crist guy. But that USF game said it all.

 

[koonja]

My take after reading hundreds of posts on this subject over the last couple days:

Kelly has stated that there's a big gap between Crist/ Rees and Golson/ Hendrix. Thus, neither of the mobile QBs will get a shot at meaningful minutes unless Kelly thinks the season is lost, and needs to start rebuilding for the future. Kelly still thinks we can win now, so it's Crist/ Rees for the foreseeable future.

Between Crist and Rees, the difference is mental toughness. Both are going to turn the ball over; yet one has repeatedly folded under adversity, and the other has repeatedly bounced back and led the team on game-winning drives (counting Michigan here).

That's basically all it comes down to. Hendrix and Golson are lacking the fundamental skills to compete with Rees and Crist for the starting position, and Crist is lacking the mental toughness necessary to play the position. Thus, it's Rees by process of elimination.

In year one of the system, Crist had 15 TDs to 7 INTs, basically 2:1 TD:INT ratio, where Rees has the reciprocal of that ratio.

 

[NDinL.A.]

I simply do not understand this generalization of Crist as someone who wilts under pressure. He has only played 9 games!!! He has led this team back in the fourth quarter. He has overcome injuries. Crist has become the scapegoat for a lot of the failings of this team. I just don't get it.

My point has been and is, if Crist is not playing well and turning the ball over, bench him. If Rees is not playing well and turning the ball over, bench him. Everyone should be held accountable.

When it happens over and over, and everyone sees it, it's not a generalization, it's a trend.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

In year one of the system, Crist had 15 TDs to 7 INTs, basically 2:1 TD:INT ratio, where Rees has the reciprocal of that ratio.

I didn't say they'd turn the ball over at the same rate. Simply that they're both going to turn the ball over. Crist doesn't have the mental toughness necessary to bounce back from his mistakes, while Rees does.

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

How do we know if Tommy is our better option. He has been given a far bigger rope than Dayne was given. Good or bad, he has been given a longer rope.

Now is he a better option than the other two kids? I don't know, but Tommy isn't getting better he is basically the same IMO. After and early enrollment, two spring ball, 2 summer, and two fall ball he is still a turnover machine. And is he getting better? I don't think so. Is USF/Michigan/MSU/Pitt have stellar defenses? And Tommy still turns the ball over at an epic rate. One of the worst if not the worst in college football. This year he has 7 TDs 6 INTS and 3 Fumbles, but yet he our starter. That is horrid. 10 Turnovers is sickening. And last year he had 12 TDs 8 INTS and 1 Fumble, so he has regressed looking at this.

I like Tommy, but I am not one that wants him as our starter long term--19 TDS 14 INTS and 4 Fumbles. Is that acceptable?

I just don't believe in the he is young crap. 2 Fall balls, 2 spring balls, 2 summers ball, and now almost 1.5 seasons and a bowl game and bowl practices. He should be better!

Look at Price at University of Washington. He even has less time than Tommy 1 start against Oregon last year and now this year and he isn't a turnover machine like Tommy. Or Trickett from FSU. Webb from Kansas. Thomas at Oregon really has the same experience as Tommy, Price from Wake and so on. They just don't turn if over as much Tommy and this is what I am concerned with. The other thing I have an issue with is Tommy offers zero ability to run. ZERO. So, he turns it over a ton and can't run?

Anyhow, complaining is futile and probably not good for the overall morale especially after a win. But, Tommy isn't going anywhere Coach will give him the long rope and teach him up and he will the be starter for the rest of the year good or bad. We have to just suppor him. But, I have concerns and I hope Tommy doesn't continue his turnover machine ways.

 

[koonja]

I didn't say they'd turn the ball over at the same rate. Simply that they're both going to turn the ball over. Crist doesn't have the mental toughness necessary to bounce back from his mistakes, while Rees does.

First of all, I was wrong in that Rees's is the reciprocal.

Secondly, technically yes, every QB is going to turn the ball over. But Crist showed last year that in 9 starts, he only threw 7 ints. That's under one per game.

Rees has shown in nearly as many starts that he will throw 2 per game.

We have a great team around our QB, whoever, he is, I'd go with the guy who's going to control the ball more.

Crist showed he can come from behind vs. Michigan. Did they win? No, but he gave them every chance to after they fell in a hole during his injury. ND outscored Michigan 24-7 when he was in there. He was a stud in the second half so don't say he folds under pressure. He almost lead a comeback to our biggest rivalry (maybe not if you think USC is).

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

Kuehnja, I totally agree. Crist is an easy guy for many to dump on. He is a nice guy and accountable, and he just takes it. And his ability to fight back from injury is amazing. And still he gets ripped on. And Tommy is immune by most, amazing. I like Tommy, I like how he helped us in tough spots last year. He also cost us huge last year (Tulsa) and this year. And yet, he gets a pass on his turnovers and fans say he is still a better option? Really??

 

[pkt77242]

How else do you develop mental toughness? Of course, they should be looking over their shoulders. As in life, there are consequences to bad decisions. Are you serious?

Yep very serious. A little looking over your shoulder is good but wondering if eberytime you make a mistake you will get yanked is terrible. It is bad for the QB and for the team. We talk about the QB as the leader of the offense and you can't keep rotating your leader. That usually leads to the team failing as they try to adjust to the change and then ultimately leads to them not having faith in their QB, which is when it all goes to ****.

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

To me Tommy has 4 traits--quick release, cool under pressure, turnover machine, and no running ability at all. Does that lead us to the next level? Right now no.

 

[D-BOE34]

I think it is clear the both Crist and Rees are not the right QB for this system. Both have the good and the bad. Crist can run the ball but can't keep the mental focus when down. Rees can't throw the ball to the right team or hang on to it but finds a way to start fresh every series.

For me, I am concerned with the development of Hendrix. I understand Golsen is still a young lad but Hendrix has been around as long as Tommy, correct? If he really is a distance from Tommy that scares me for the future.

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

On the positive side, at least we have 4 options at QB that look to be pretty dang good. I can live with any of the four IMO. I like all 4 of them. I have issues with the huge amout of turnovers 1 has, but still we have 4 options. When other schools have one, maybe.

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

No, Andrew didn't early enroll like Tommy did. That is why Tommy was chosen over Andrew I believe.

 

[D-BOE34]

Maybe we put Rees, Golsen and Hendrix all behind center in a shot gun and have Cave snap the ball to which ever QB it is for the play called!!??

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Secondly, technically yes, every QB is going to turn the ball over. But Crist showed last year that in 9 starts, he only threw 7 ints. That's under one per game.

A better TO margin, like superior athleticism, is meaningless if you don't have the requisite mental toughness to play the position.

Crist showed he can come from behind vs. Michigan. Did they win? No, but he gave them every chance to after they fell in a hole during his injury. ND outscored Michigan 24-7 when he was in there. He was a stud in the second half so don't say he folds under pressure. He almost lead a comeback to our biggest rivalry (maybe not if you think USC is).

That's true. He gets credit for what should have been a come-from-behind victory against scUM. But since then, we've had his 4th quarter against State, Stanford, Navy, and his first quarter against USF. In all four of those games, he made mistakes and proceeded to fold under the pressure. Rees has never folded.

I honestly think that's all this boils down to. Like you, I'd love to see Crist in there fulfilling this offense's potential, but his lack of mental toughness seems to be a fatal flaw.

 

[D-BOE34]

No, Andrew didn't early enroll like Tommy did. That is why Tommy was chosen over Andrew I believe.

So would it be safe to assume that going into next year Hendrix should, key word should, make a significant stride and be able to narrow the gap between him and Rees? I know we all want him or Golsen to shine now but I am thinking realistically.