COVID-19

[TorontoGold]

Look here, it seems Hydroxychloroquine can work to treat COVID after all. Hmm.

I'm sure it was just a simple mistake and not Big Pharma corruption aided by Big Government and Big Tech having their pockets lined.

Hydroxychloroquine (oral route) - Side effects & dosage

www.mayoclinic.org

View attachment 3054455

The irony of you making this statement while directly underneath it says it may increase heart rhythm problems. In the horsepaste community this is a big no-no so surely that's a non-starter!

 

[PerthDomer]

Look here, it seems Hydroxychloroquine can work to treat COVID after all. Hmm.

I'm sure it was just a simple mistake and not Big Pharma corruption aided by Big Government and Big Tech having their pockets lined.

Hydroxychloroquine (oral route) - Side effects & dosage

www.mayoclinic.org

View attachment 3054455

We still don't use it for COVID. No well conducted HCQ have come out in a positive direction since we stopped using it empirically. If we did still use it it'd be good for pharma. They'd have another pill to sell.

It looks more like they forgot to remove a sentence from their patient information page.

Additionally for everyone getting a flu booster but not a covid booster (that's what the annual flu shot is if you've gotten prior immunizations) how do you square that? COVID IFR has come down but it's still at the level of the flu. And for people over 5 both diseases follow a similar mortality curve with a strong age preponderance.

 

[yankeehater]

We still don't use it for COVID. No well conducted HCQ have come out in a positive direction since we stopped using it empirically. If we did still use it it'd be good for pharma. They'd have another pill to sell.

It looks more like they forgot to remove a sentence from their patient information page.

Additionally for everyone getting a flu booster but not a covid booster (that's what the annual flu shot is if you've gotten prior immunizations) how do you square that? COVID IFR has come down but it's still at the level of the flu. And for people over 5 both diseases follow a similar mortality curve with a strong age preponderance.

You can buy 60 pills for just over $32 so it doesn't sound like a big money maker for pharma.

 

[PerthDomer]

You can buy 60 pills for just over $32 so it doesn't sound like a big money maker for pharma.

If HCQ were used in every case of COVID, for prophylaxis, etc. You'd be at billions of pills in a year in the US alone. You'd have more in Europe and Asia.

When pharma screws us over for profit it's generally by pushing a marginal study as positive and then getting a pill approved for more general use than is really needed.

The Tamiflu fiasco and lessons learnt

Oseltamivir (Tamiflu), a neuraminidase inhibitor, was approved for seasonal flu by US Food and Drug Administration in 1999. A number of randomized controlled trials, systematic reviews, and meta-analysis emphasized a favorable efficacy and safety profile. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Tamiflu is a good case study of what pharma bilking the public looks like. Fortunately the vaccine, paxlovid, and other drug trials were structured in a way to avoid making the mistakes we made with Tamiflu.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

You can buy 60 pills for just over $32 so it doesn't sound like a big money maker for pharma.

Now do the math if it costs less than a dollar to produce it and millions of pills are sold during the year. for each type of marketable treatment.

Manufacturing cost of potential coronavirus drugs​

Though most drugs currently in clinical trials to fight COVD-19 can be made cheaply, they can sell for hundreds of times the price.

Drug	Estimated cost price (course)	Estimated cost price (day)
Remdesivir (10 days)	$9	$0.93
Favipiravir (14 days)	$20	$1.45
Lopinavir/ritonavir (14 days)	$4	$0.28
Hydroxychloroquine (14 days)	$1	$0.08
Chloroquine (14 days)	$0.30	$0.02
Azithromycin (14 days)	$1.40	$0.10
Sofosbuvir/daclatasvir (14 days)	$5	$0.39
Pirfenidone (28 days)	$31	$1.09

 

[sixstar]

Now someone post the price of Paxlovid per course.

 

[Lberry]

Now someone post the price of Paxlovid per course.

How about Remdesivour vs Ivermectin, and the associated benefits and risks.

 

[PerthDomer]

How about Remdesivour vs Ivermectin, and the associated benefits and risks.

The ironic thing about remdesivir is they structured early trials such that they found minimal benefit by restricting it to hospitalized patients. It works as well as Paxlovid early, but by testing it only in hospitalized patients you missed the window of efficacy.

Later on they realized if done early it dramatically lowered hospitalization/severe disease. It would have been worth hospitalizing/sending to infusion centers super high risk patients early in illness to get the infusion much like they did w monoclonal antibodies.

But to think about hydroxychloroquine. Even if it worked it didn't work well, since it was being used a lot in early March 2020. In a world where HCQ was 20% effective we'd still recommend vaccinations just as much and still be recommending paxlovid for high risk people.

Hydroxychloroquine or Ivermectin being effective enough to use wouldn't have changed the calculus on vaccines or antivirals one bit. If either one had been Paxlovid level (90% severe disease reduction) it'd show up in every study you did. That's the only way the drugs would have impacted vaccine makers bottom line.

 

[Lberry]

The ironic thing about remdesivir is they structured early trials such that they found minimal benefit by restricting it to hospitalized patients. It works as well as Paxlovid early, but by testing it only in hospitalized patients you missed the window of efficacy.

Later on they realized if done early it dramatically lowered hospitalization/severe disease. It would have been worth hospitalizing/sending to infusion centers super high risk patients early in illness to get the infusion much like they did w monoclonal antibodies.

But to think about hydroxychloroquine. Even if it worked it didn't work well, since it was being used a lot in early March 2020. In a world where HCQ was 20% effective we'd still recommend vaccinations just as much and still be recommending paxlovid for high risk people.

Hydroxychloroquine or Ivermectin being effective enough to use wouldn't have changed the calculus on vaccines or antivirals one bit. If either one had been Paxlovid level (90% severe disease reduction) it'd show up in every study you did. That's the only way the drugs would have impacted vaccine makers bottom line.

Remdesivir was stopped because it causes kidney failure and was killing people. I disagree with more of this but no sense in arguing. People are pretty cemeted to the studies they're familiar with.

 

[PerthDomer]

Remdesivir was stopped because it causes kidney failure and was killing people. I disagree with more of this but no sense in arguing. People are pretty cemeted to the studies they're familiar with.

Every drug has a downside. Numerous drugs, including advil can cause renal failure. It's less nephrotoxic than a lot of antibiotics.

Acute kidney injury in COVID-19 patients receiving remdesivir: A systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized clinical trials

Remdesivir is an antiviral agent with positive effects on the prognosis of Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19). However, there are concerns about the detrimental effects of remdesivir on kidney function which might consequently lead to Acute Kidney Injury ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The thing about drugs is they're very rarely a panacea. The reason you do medical training is in part to learn how to balance their positive effects with their negativeside effects.

The point isn't everyone should have gotten remdesivir, it was that more patients should have gotten it early and if they'd structured the trials properly pharma would have made more money.

If pharma were really in control they'd have loved a world where everyone was taking HCQ, Ivermectin. Etc. And still getting vaccinated. The same way we vaccinate for other diseases but still treat them if you get a breakthrough case.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Remdesivir was stopped because it causes kidney failure and was killing people. I disagree with more of this but no sense in arguing. People are pretty cemeted to the studies they're familiar with.

Not all studies have the same weight of validity or supported amount of evidence. I think you will find the majority of the medical community lands one way over the other due to the vast amount of studies showing one thing is proper or has better outcomes balanced with lower risks compared to another. That should tell you something about what treatments were and are currently recommended, or what paths forward should be. Its not a conspiracy by the medical community is forcing on the public.

 

[Lberry]

Not all studies have the same weight of validity or supported amount of evidence. I think you will find the majority of the medical community lands one way over the other due to the vast amount of studies showing one thing is proper or has better outcomes balanced with lower risks compared to another. That should tell you something about what treatments were and are currently recommended, or what paths forward should be. Its not a conspiracy by the medical community is forcing on the public.

The "majority of the medical community" was dead wrong throughout covid and it wasn't due to the absence of powerful studies showing they'd be wrong. Those studies were literally surpressed.

 

[PerthDomer]

The "majority of the medical community" was dead wrong throughout covid and it wasn't due to the absence of powerful studies showing they'd be wrong. Those studies were literally surpressed.

So just to understand you, the medical training we get turns us into stooges and only freethinkers with true knowledge are capable of forming valid opinions?

How do you suggest we reform medical training to get rid of dumb doctors who are incapable of reading thr literature at your level?

 

[TorontoGold]

So just to understand you, the medical training we get turns us into stooges and only freethinkers with true knowledge are capable of forming valid opinions?

How do you suggest we reform medical training to get rid of dumb doctors who are incapable of reading thr literature at your level?

Substacks! You can pay researchers to continue their research with a monthly subscription so that they can fight back against the grifters. Also, make sure to buy their unregulated pills (FDA is a sham) so that you can push back at Big Pharma pushing bad medicine. Why do animals always look so happy? Hmmmm maybe because they get the best meds.

 

[Lberry]

So just to understand you, the medical training we get turns us into stooges and only freethinkers with true knowledge are capable of forming valid opinions?

How do you suggest we reform medical training to get rid of dumb doctors who are incapable of reading thr literature at your level?

Medical doctors became a pre-packaged delivery outlets during covid.

The vast majority of doctors have little/no training in vaccine effectiveness or side effect studies. They're given a crash course in what they're supposed to know, and then jump into their careers centered on vaccine incentive programs from payers. I work with doctora all the time. Their knowledge on vaccine studies is usually a joke. They point to the 3 controlled studies the pharmaceutical companies (in conjunction with FDA/CDC) told them to use, never look elsewhere.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

Medical doctors became a pre-packaged delivery outlets during covid.

The vast majority of doctors have little/no training in vaccine effectiveness or side effect studies. They're given a crash course in what they're supposed to know, and then jump into their careers centered on vaccine incentive programs from payers. I work with doctora all the time. Their knowledge on vaccine studies is usually a joke. They point to the 3 controlled studies the pharmaceutical companies (in conjunction with FDA/CDC) told them to use, never look elsewhere.

I think we all know how vulnerable the medical industry is to being controlled by big pharma money……COVID vaccines are no different. If doctors pushed nutrition, healthy lifestyle, etc. as much as they push medications and vaccines, the population wouldn’t be as vulnerable (sorry to use that word again) to viruses such as COVID. Vaccines and pharmaceuticals would still have their place but we’d surely be less reliant on big pharma pressure.

 

[Giddyup]

COVID was created by humans. Sickening

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

COVID was created by humans. Sickening

Lmao. There is zero evidence this is the case. Literally no serious person believes this. None of the dna or genetic evidence indicates this virus has any weaponized or man made components.

I’ll post this again. This is the best assessment I have seen to date.

https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Declassified-Assessment-on-COVID-19-Origins.pdf.

I’ve asked for some one to rebut this but it has gone unanswered.

 

[Giddyup]

It was the bats

 

[Giddyup]

They said get me this Chinese arm

 

[PerthDomer]

I think we all know how vulnerable the medical industry is to being controlled by big pharma money……COVID vaccines are no different. If doctors pushed nutrition, healthy lifestyle, etc. as much as they push medications and vaccines, the population wouldn’t be as vulnerable (sorry to use that word again) to viruses such as COVID. Vaccines and pharmaceuticals would still have their place but we’d surely be less reliant on big pharma pressure.

In general vaccines are bad for business. What's good for business is treating active disease and repeat customers. Prior to COVID the general medical discussion was the failure of the medical system to incentivise developing more vaccines vs. A marginally better diabetes/heart failure treatment.

Primary care preaches better diet/exercise until it's blue in the face. People don't listen. The best doctor I worked with in terms of incorporating lifestyle changes said that at best he got 25% uptake in any lifestyle changes.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

In general vaccines are bad for business. What's good for business is treating active disease and repeat customers. Prior to COVID the general medical discussion was the failure of the medical system to incentivise developing more vaccines vs. A marginally better diabetes/heart failure treatment.

Primary care preaches better diet/exercise until it's blue in the face. People don't listen. The best doctor I worked with in terms of incorporating lifestyle changes said that at best he got 25% uptake in any lifestyle changes.

I appreciate your feedback and understand your perspective. I think getting people to enact lifestyle changes is challenging but it has to happen. There has to be a better way to incentivize it because that’s the real key to combat the declining health and increased vulnerability of the population. There is too much dependence on medications, especially in situations where lifestyle changes would have an equal or better end results. I know this is a thread about COVID and I apologize for drifting off topic a bit but I feel this is the root cause of most of the health problems we have as a society. It’s almost as if people have to be put in a situation where they HAVE to make the lifestyle change.

 

[bobbyok1]

COVID was created by humans. Sickening

The idea that ANYONE thinks differently is what is troubling. The evidence is overwhelming. But what it shows you is the power of propaganda.

And for all of those who are swallowing the propaganda please follow up with your 🤮🤣reactions that way we can more clearly understand who the brainwashed crowd is. Thanks in advance.

 

[GATTACA!]

Mods can we please move this thread to the politics section so it’s not on the front page? Guests come here and see these posts and many are embarrassing as fuck. ^^^

 

[IRISHDODGER]

I appreciate your feedback and understand your perspective. I think getting people to enact lifestyle changes is challenging but it has to happen. There has to be a better way to incentivize it because that’s the real key to combat the declining health and increased vulnerability of the population. There is too much dependence on medications, especially in situations where lifestyle changes would have an equal or better end results. I know this is a thread about COVID and I apologize for drifting off topic a bit but I feel this is the root cause of most of the health problems we have as a society. It’s almost as if people have to be put in a situation where they HAVE to make the lifestyle change.

Talk to any friends or colleagues that are MD/PA/APRN and ask them how difficult it is to get patients to change their lifestyles. Most Americans want a pill to fix their problem & then complain about the AEs when they didn’t bother to heed the HCP’s warning or read the PI or listen to PharmD when it was dispensed. Look at some of the diabetes drugs such as Ozempic. The side effect is weight loss. You think a lazy American cares about the side effects or long-term issues provided they can drop weight by popping a pill? I’m sure there’s no one taking Ozempic who doesn’t have Type II diabetes.

Perth is correct…vaccines are not money makers for pharma b/c at best it’s one shot per year (flu vaccine for example). The others that we all get are one or two rounds per lifetime. COVID was obviously the exception for various reasons. Pharma wants a daily med that needs to be taken for as long as possible to increase revenues. Medical groups jump at the chance to build or acquire a hospital so they can cash In on 340B pricing on drugs to ensure bigger profits. They also prefer infusions & injectables b/c of the buy & bill model and the extra charges they can tack on to the procedure.

 

[PerthDomer]

The idea that ANYONE thinks differently is what is troubling. The evidence is overwhelming. But what it shows you is the power of propaganda.

And for all of those who are swallowing the propaganda please follow up with your 🤮🤣reactions that way we can more clearly understand who the brainwashed crowd is. Thanks in advance.

You do realize the only peer reviewed papers looking at the origin support natural origins? As do the vast majority of virologists, even those without a conflict of interest in GoF research.

This isn't the first and won't be the last pandemic. Understanding these things are normal occurrence and we need to prepare for the next one is really important.

 

[Lberry]

You do realize the only peer reviewed papers looking at the origin support natural origins? As do the vast majority of virologists, even those without a conflict of interest in GoF research.

This isn't the first and won't be the last pandemic. Understanding these things are normal occurrence and we need to prepare for the next one is really important.

Lol.

 

[PerthDomer]

Talk to any friends or colleagues that are MD/PA/APRN and ask them how difficult it is to get patients to change their lifestyles. Most Americans want a pill to fix their problem & then complain about the AEs when they didn’t bother to heed the HCP’s warning or read the PI or listen to PharmD when it was dispensed. Look at some of the diabetes drugs such as Ozempic. The side effect is weight loss. You think a lazy American cares about the side effects or long-term issues provided they can drop weight by popping a pill? I’m sure there’s no one taking Ozempic who doesn’t have Type II diabetes.

Perth is correct…vaccines are not money makers for pharma b/c at best it’s one shot per year (flu vaccine for example). The others that we all get are one or two rounds per lifetime. COVID was obviously the exception for various reasons. Pharma wants a daily med that needs to be taken for as long as possible to increase revenues. Medical groups jump at the chance to build or acquire a hospital so they can cash In on 340B pricing on drugs to ensure bigger profits. They also prefer infusions & injectables b/c of the buy & bill model and the extra charges they can tack on to the procedure.

Ozempic is really exciting. Every disease they've tested it on has shown improvement (heart attack/stroke in the right population, heart failure, type 1 diabetes, even some promising signs on substance abuse).

The issue with obesity is it's gotten cheaper over time to consume calories and we evolved to store fat to prepare for starvation. Fighting obesity through willpower is like an alligator opening his mouth when it's closed. They just didn't evolve to do it.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

Ozempic is really exciting. Every disease they've tested it on has shown improvement (heart attack/stroke in the right population, heart failure, type 1 diabetes, even some promising signs on substance abuse).

The issue with obesity is it's gotten cheaper over time to consume calories and we evolved to store fat to prepare for starvation. Fighting obesity through willpower is like an alligator opening his mouth when it's closed. They just didn't evolve to do it.

The relationship of the human population, evolution and the food supply is a very interesting subject indeed. I tend to believe that obesity is only one of the “side effects” of our food consumption. The overall health of this country has just continued to get worse and there will likely be no magic pharmaceutical product to solve it. I guess our society will just continue to take the route of less evolution when it comes to this subject and depend on big pharma to be the substitute. I still believe that being proactive in solving the root of a problem is a much better strategy than addressing the symptoms and that isn’t happening to the level it needs to. I also realize that’s much easier said than done. I guess it’s time to open up a new box of Little Debbie’s, damn things are good!

 

[PerthDomer]

The relationship of the human population, evolution and the food supply is a very interesting subject indeed. I tend to believe that obesity is only one of the “side effects” of our food consumption. The overall health of this country has just continued to get worse and there will likely be no magic pharmaceutical product to solve it. I guess our society will just continue to take the route of less evolution when it comes to this subject and depend on big pharma to be the substitute. I still believe that being proactive in solving the root of a problem is a much better strategy than addressing the symptoms and that isn’t happening to the level it needs to. I also realize that’s much easier said than done. I guess it’s time to open up a new box of Little Debbie’s, damn things are good!

If you look at our population, we're healthier than we've ever been. The reason we've lost life expectancy is drug overdose, car accidents, and gun deaths. From a medical system perspective we're doing great.

After WW1 they had to have a commission because half of recruits were unfit for medical service. In the 50s/60s cancer and heart disease mortality were massive and we couldn't treat them. The thought that there was some glorious past where we were all Uber fit is laughable.