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GATTACA!

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I have lived in both bubbles. Dirt poor Elkhart kid. Now I am coasting but it took lots blood sweat, stress and tears. I was a social worker for 10+ years but I do more outside of the weird red tape of government and social worker bullshit standards. I give more of my time and money to people I don’t know than I do know. You don’t believe in people, you believe in government.
Look at the situation unfettered capitalism has put us in. The wheels are just going to continue to come off without intervention.

"Just do better bro" isn't a solution to a nation wide issue.
 

Irish#1

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Adjusted for inflation $6,500 in 1973 equals just over $48,000 in todays dollars. The median individual income in 2023 was just over $48,000. So nearly identical.

Meanwhile the average house in 1973, adjusted for inflation, cost $189,500. In 2023 the average cost by comparison was $440,300.

Same story with cars, same story with college educations, same story with healthcare costs, child rearing, nearly everything. So no it's not as simple as just finding a better job or moving, and it's not because people have ipads or take lavish vacations (lol).
No it’s not because people have iPads. It’s an accumulation of things as I noted. But if you don’t think spending money on those things has no effect on your ability to become a single income family, I don’t know what to tell you, but simply blaming it on today’s economy isn’t the answer. I wish I had known those were idyllic times back then because it sure didn’t seem easy.
 
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TorontoGold

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I'm disappointed you're not getting this with you being the smartest guy in the room. We're talking about raising a family and having a parent around the kids most of the time. Blazer is right. You can do it with both working, but it puts a strain on the family. But we're not talking about macro economics. We're talking about simple finances and the ability to live off one income so a parent is around the kids more. That's why I said it wasn't impossible.

If only one parent works, you only need one car.
Car payment saved $500 - $800 a month
Car insurance saved $100 a month
Gas saved $150 - $300 a month
Not eating out 4-5 times a week $100 - $300
Cutting cable/streaming subscriptions $100 - $150 a month

That's $950 - $1,650 right there. Then you have stuff unnecessary purchases like Starbucks or buying the latest Yeti or some other designer thermal mug, etc., etc., etc..

Depends on the room, but I'll accept that complement in this one. Blazer's did not make the point that you did that it's about sacrificing things on the margins like Starbucks - you are the one pointing to it being feasible to have a single income family.

So, it's really great you found $1,650 in possible savings monthly. Real median personal income for 2023 was $42K, how does one raise kids on that? Household was $80K - can you raise 5 kids on that?

What is the income level that you think someone can raise kids on? Not from the 70s or 80s, but today.
 

Blazers46

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I have a client running out of money in her 70s who refuses to take action. My team made a 10 point action list included getting a roommate (she can't afford the home she owns and lives in alone), claim $300/month SNAP eligibility, lunches at the Senior Center, volunteer at church instead of giving money you can't afford (amongst a pile of other charities she is giving to), consider moving in with one of your kids..... not a fun list of options but she is too prideful to do any of them. She will be bankrupt in three years with much worse options than today. People in our country are horrendously entitled even when facing imminent failure.
If gov would just make her life better she wouldn’t need pride to swallow.
 

Blazers46

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Look at the situation unfettered capitalism has put us in. The wheels are just going to continue to come off without intervention.

"Just do better bro" isn't a solution to a nation wide issue.
What are you or I going to do about? Grab your pitchfork… until then take the tampon out and man the fuck up.
 

Blazers46

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Look at the situation unfettered capitalism has put us in. The wheels are just going to continue to come off without intervention.

"Just do better bro" isn't a solution to a nation wide issue.
I will also add this and I’ve said it numerous times… the government is not going fix this. We all know this. We live in a society where we work hard to build bigger and better walls around us. Honestly are much bigger then they used to be… you say we can’t live like cockroaches but homes per sqft per person is only increasing. We are selfish entitled people. Until people change government won’t.
 

GATTACA!

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Depends on the room, but I'll accept that complement in this one. Blazer's did not make the point that you did that it's about sacrificing things on the margins like Starbucks - you are the one pointing to it being feasible to have a single income family.

So, it's really great you found $1,650 in possible savings monthly. Real median personal income for 2023 was $42K, how does one raise kids on that? Household was $80K - can you raise 5 kids on that?

What is the income level that you think someone can raise kids on? Not from the 70s or 80s, but today.
I would also love to be in the room when they pitch their wife the idea of being a stay at home mom with no access to a car lol.
 

Irish#1

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I would also love to be in the room when they pitch their wife the idea of being a stay at home mom with no access to a car lol.
Try thinking outside the box instead of accepting today’s norm.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I would also love to be in the room when they pitch their wife the idea of being a stay at home mom with no access to a car lol.
Come to my neighborhood, which is primary Indian families, and take notes. About half of them only have one car and young kids. Several are stay at home moms.
 

GATTACA!

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No it’s not because people have iPads. It’s an accumulation of things as I noted. But if you don’t think spending money on those things has no effect on your ability to become a single income family, I don’t know what to tell you, but simply blaming it on today’s economy isn’t the answer. I wish I had known those were idyllic times back then because it sure didn’t seem easy.
On a micro level if you're having trouble paying the bills of course you need to be careful with non necessary expenses. On a macro level something needs to change. At large there aren't enough frappes that can be made at home to offset a 100% base increase in the cost of homes. Home ownership is dropping. Birthrates are dropping. It's all connected.

Maybe it didn't seem easy back then but by most statistical measures it was and millennials would trade for those economic conditions in a heartbeat.
 

GATTACA!

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What are you or I going to do about? Grab your pitchfork… until then take the tampon out and man the fuck up.
Acknowledge that there is an issue?
I will also add this and I’ve said it numerous times… the government is not going fix this. We all know this. We live in a society where we work hard to build bigger and better walls around us. Honestly are much bigger then they used to be… you say we can’t live like cockroaches but homes per sqft per person is only increasing. We are selfish entitled people. Until people change government won’t.
That's a very pessimistic outlook. The government had it sorted at one point. Tax rates on the rich and on corporations have been high in the past. There's no reason that they can't be high again. Health insurance wasn't a pile of garbage before it can be reversed.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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My comment wasn't WRT school shooters. Just because Irish#1 was able to do to raise 5 kids on a single income in the 80's and expects others to do that today is detached from reality.

Totally agree that school shooters have terrible parents, throw them in jail with the kids too.
Maybe we can all chew on this...

a) Raising a family on one income in 2024 is a much steeper hill to climb than it was for my mom's parents who had 6 kids born in the 50's/60's.

AND

b) There's some people having children right now they simply can't afford to support, and expect the rest of the world to subsidize their needs.

Editor's note: we have two toddlers in daycare with a bill of $3200/month. Thankful that my wife and I both work, do well, and are in a financial position to afford that. Two toddlers is no joyride, but I'm glad we waited a little bit later to start a family because 5-7 years ago we would be struggling financially with two in daycare at that rate.
 

GATTACA!

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Maybe we can all chew on this...

a) Raising a family on one income in 2024 is a much steeper hill to climb than it was for my mom's parents who had 6 kids born in the 50's/60's.

AND

b) There's some people having children right now they simply can't afford to support, and expect the rest of the world to subsidize their needs.

Editor's note: we have two toddlers in daycare with a bill of $3200/month. Thankful that my wife and I both work, do well, and are in a financial position to afford that. Two toddlers is no joyride, but I'm glad we waited a little bit later to start a family because 5-7 years ago we would be struggling financially with two in daycare at that rate.
I agree with both of those points.

To be clear I'm not arguing in favor of more welfare programs as the solution to this.
 

TorontoGold

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Maybe we can all chew on this...

a) Raising a family on one income in 2024 is a much steeper hill to climb than it was for my mom's parents who had 6 kids born in the 50's/60's.

AND

b) There's some people having children right now they simply can't afford to support, and expect the rest of the world to subsidize their needs.

Editor's note: we have two toddlers in daycare with a bill of $3200/month. Thankful that my wife and I both work, do well, and are in a financial position to afford that. Two toddlers is no joyride, but I'm glad we waited a little bit later to start a family because 5-7 years ago we would be struggling financially with two in daycare at that rate.

If your wife was to stop working tomorrow, do you believe the cost savings from her not driving to work + no more childcare allow you guys to live the same life you have today?
 

Blazers46

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Acknowledge that there is an issue?
I’ve acknowledged income disparity is an issue a million times. It’s a rinse and repeat argument. This is how we solve problems by revolving conversations apparently. Lol.
That's a very pessimistic outlook. The government had it sorted at one point. Tax rates on the rich and on corporations have been high in the past. There's no reason that they can't be high again. Health insurance wasn't a pile of garbage before it can be reversed.
Pessimistic government is going to fix all your income issues? I accept and I will repeat, the government is not there to help you. Name me a politician currently in office somewhere and I’ll show you the problem and their income v your income and that disparity.
 

Blazers46

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I would also love to be in the room when they pitch their wife the idea of being a stay at home mom with no access to a car lol.
Or… maybe the wife could take the husband to work and take the car… car pool? There are options.
 

Blazers46

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Maybe we can all chew on this...

a) Raising a family on one income in 2024 is a much steeper hill to climb than it was for my mom's parents who had 6 kids born in the 50's/60's.

AND

b) There's some people having children right now they simply can't afford to support, and expect the rest of the world to subsidize their needs.

Editor's note: we have two toddlers in daycare with a bill of $3200/month. Thankful that my wife and I both work, do well, and are in a financial position to afford that. Two toddlers is no joyride, but I'm glad we waited a little bit later to start a family because 5-7 years ago we would be struggling financially with two in daycare at that rate.
I guess I will show myself a little… I work from home, my wife works from home. 2 of 3 homeschool. Anywhere I travel the government pays me mileage and I get to air travel 80 days per year… and I bring the kids and wife. On travel everything is paid for by government and per diemed by the government. I’m a little spoiled.
 

Irish#1

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Forcing ones beliefs onto their partner is a tale as old as time lol.
Marriage is a partnership. Give and take. You don't force your beliefs on your spouse.

I'm not divorced from reality. I see the price of food, cars, gas, daycare, etc. Our five are still raising families so I see it and hear it. Two of ours are raising a family on one income and they don't have jobs paying big salaries. They have homes in decent neighborhoods and aren't struggling. It's just a matter of what you want to put into it.

On your post I quoted, you're really bad at this when it comes to discussing kids and marriage. Experience is the best teacher.
 
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Irish#1

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I guess I will show myself a little… I work from home, my wife works from home. 2 of 3 homeschool. Anywhere I travel the government pays me mileage and I get to air travel 80 days per year… and I bring the kids and wife. On travel everything is paid for by government and per diemed by the government. I’m a little spoiled.
I need to call Elon and give him a heads up. lol
 
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ColoradoIrish

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I'm disappointed you're not getting this with you being the smartest guy in the room. We're talking about raising a family and having a parent around the kids most of the time. Blazer is right. You can do it with both working, but it puts a strain on the family. But we're not talking about macro economics. We're talking about simple finances and the ability to live off one income so a parent is around the kids more. That's why I said it wasn't impossible.

If only one parent works, you only need one car.
Car payment saved $500 - $800 a month
Car insurance saved $100 a month
Gas saved $150 - $300 a month
Not eating out 4-5 times a week $100 - $300
Cutting cable/streaming subscriptions $100 - $150 a month

That's $950 - $1,650 right there. Then you have stuff unnecessary purchases like Starbucks or buying the latest Yeti or some other designer thermal mug, etc., etc., etc..
You left out rent
I guess I will show myself a little… I work from home, my wife works from home. 2 of 3 homeschool. Anywhere I travel the government pays me mileage and I get to air travel 80 days per year… and I bring the kids and wife. On travel everything is paid for by government and per diemed by the government. I’m a little spoiled.
Spoiled with a bunch of government provided benefits and government provided job. That allows you to spend more time with your family than the average American. And then on here saying the government can't fix any of these problems, but the government and it's provided benefits has definitely positively impacted you and your family lives. Do I have to point out the irony?
 

Blazers46

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Spoiled with a bunch of government provided benefits and government provided job. That allows you to spend more time with your family than the average American. And then on here saying the government can't fix any of these problems, but the government and its provided benefits has definitely positively impacted you and your family lives. Do I have to point out the irony?
I have worked my ass off. I grew up in a house with no water, no heat and no air and my parents were big time hoarders. I was basically homeless inside 4 walls.

I now own multiple businesses that are on autopilot and I work for the government. The irony is that I know what it takes to crawl up from the bottom. The worst thing anyone could ever do was give my family things. We become experts at making ourselves available for it.

My government benefits are because my work is nationwide. Shame on my employer (government) for giving me travel accommodations while traveling for them and providing an extra boost for meals while I protect your ass from whatever it is that I do. Lol. Spoiled… yes, I have worked hard and I am able to spoil myself.

Like I said I work in government currently and in the past I have worked as a social worker in the prisons, protective services and in the schools. Government can’t help this culture of entitlement. I wake up every morning with the same 3 things on my mind… have a plan, have a purpose, have/bring value.

I was just in Aurora, CO doing things to help clean up your shitty city/state…. and Beau Joes pizza was awful. Lol.
 
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ab2cmiller

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Obviously it depends upon how much salary the "stay at home" spouse is giving up to stay with the kids. My wife was a teacher, didn't make a lot of money. Were we worse off financially having her stay home with the kids? I would say yes. However, I would say it wasn't significantly worse. As others pointed out, there are lots of significant costs that are reduced or eliminated with the primary one being daycare.
 
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ColoradoIrish

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I have worked my ass off. I grew up in a house with no water, no heat and no air and my parents were big time hoarders. I was basically homeless inside 4 walls.

I now own multiple businesses that are on autopilot and I work for the government. The irony is that I know what it takes to crawl up from the bottom. The worst thing anyone could ever do was give my family things. We become experts at making ourselves available for it.

My government benefits are because my work is nationwide. Shame on my employer (government) for giving me travel accommodations while traveling for them and providing an extra boost for meals while I protect your ass from whatever it is that I do. Lol. Spoiled… yes, I have worked hard and I am able to spoil myself.

Like I said I work in government currently and in the past I have worked as a social worker in the prisons, protective services and in the schools. Government can’t help this culture of entitlement. I wake up every morning with the same 3 things on my mind… have a plan, have a purpose, have/bring value.

I was just in Aurora, CO doing things to help clean up your shitty city/state…. and Beau Joes pizza was awful. Lol.
Dude no one is saying you don't work hard, but you are benefiting now both because of the work you have put in and because of the benefits work offers you and your family.

Aurora is a shit hole there's a reason I don't live. Every state has shit hole areas. I told you beau joes sucks too, there's a reason I still get Chicago or New York style. I'll take my state over Indiana any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
 

TorontoGold

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Marriage is a partnership. Give and take. You don't force your beliefs on your spouse.

I'm not divorced from reality. I see the price of food, cars, gas, daycare, etc. Our five are still raising families so I see it and hear it. Two of ours are raising a family on one income and they don't have jobs paying big salaries. They have homes in decent neighborhoods and aren't struggling. It's just a matter of what you want to put into it.

One your post I quoted, you're really bad at this when it comes to discussing kids and marriage. Experience is the best teacher.

So how does one afford to live on $42K (the median individual income) in the US? How does the average Joe make it work?

How old are they, and when did they buy their homes?
 

Blazers46

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Dude no one is saying you don't work hard, but you are benefiting now both because of the work you have put in and because of the benefits work offers you and your family.

Aurora is a shit hole there's a reason I don't live. Every state has shit hole areas. I told you beau joes sucks too, there's a reason I still get Chicago or New York style. I'll take my state over Indiana any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Exactly. They pay me for my work and my value not because my skills and my labor are not valuable.
 

Blazers46

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So how does one afford to live on $42K (the median individual income) in the US? How does the average Joe make it work?

How old are they, and when did they buy their homes?
Average Joes don’t want to live average lives. This month is a perfect example. There will be so many average joes over reaching and extending themselves this Christmas and by February will be in collections. You ever drive through a trailer park and see $60K trucks? Pride is why people cannot eat rice and beans. My family lived in a camper for 16 months and we essentially eat rice beans to get over a slight hump. People can do it. It’s people like @GATTACA! that think these people are living like cockroaches that keep people from swallowing their pride and taking a step back.
 

Blazers46

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Aurora is a shit hole there's a reason I don't live. Every state has shit hole areas. I told you beau joes sucks too, there's a reason I still get Chicago or New York style. I'll take my state over Indiana any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
It is a shithole. What have you done to help those poors in Aurora? Or is it something we just wait for government to handle? I only ask because Colorado is a very nice place and you legit drive 10-15 minutes from the now infamous Venezuelan gang complex and you bump into million dollar homes and the Raytheon’s, Lockheed and globs of other government contractors raking in the big bucks. Ironically there is an ICE facility there that by looks of it is under utilized….

Besides the scenic views I would take Lake Michigan over CO any day but that’s just me. You can’t even stop and take a piss in CO because all the bathrooms are locked because of the homeless issues. I’m old, I got a 10 minutes window to pee and 3 minute window to take a shit… not feasible for me lol.
 

GATTACA!

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Average Joes don’t want to live average lives. This month is a perfect example. There will be so many average joes over reaching and extending themselves this Christmas and by February will be in collections. You ever drive through a trailer park and see $60K trucks? Pride is why people cannot eat rice and beans. My family lived in a camper for 16 months and we essentially eat rice beans to get over a slight hump. People can do it. It’s people like @GATTACA! that think these people are living like cockroaches that keep people from swallowing their pride and taking a step back.
Again you're confusing my comments about the economy as a whole with my comments about individuals. If you can't make ends meet and need to stretch your income then yes you have to do whatever it takes. I'm talking about the giant economic factors that are making that a reality for everyone not just people down on their luck.
 
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