'25 CA WR Dylan Robinson (Washington Verbal)

a mike

Well-known member
Messages
381
Reaction score
309
Has Freeman not moved the program towards the upper echelon of talented teams? I think Lanning has a great perception of buying his way to top teams. Well, Freeman has taken the team talent up from Kelly and Lanning has maintained it since Cristobal has left. (This is not about on field performance at all, because Lanning has done a ton and that's a different discussion).

In terms of overall team talent per 247's team talent

2021 - Kelly's last team was 89.79 avg and 853.74
2023 - Freeman's most recent team 91.16 avg and 870.70

2021 - Cristobal's last team was 90.60 avg and 885.75
2023 - Lanning's most recent team 90.29 avg 874.74

You're upset because Freeman hasn't radically changed the team talent to match that of those three programs. I think we would all agree that Oregon is a recruiting powerhouse under Lanning, and Freeman is literally right there with him in building a talented roster.

ND does not have the NFL production outside of a few positions, ND does not have the public perception of being a big NIL player, and ND has the academic constraints that most other serious CFB schools do not - and yet, Freeman is right there.

I agree it sucks to not win individual recruitments of high profile recruits, and to have let down games so far, but you can not say that Freeman has not delivered on the promised talent acquisition. If you truly expected him to come in and be on par with Saban/Smart/Day right off the bat with ND's known limitations that's on you. Look at Lanning, he's got a bigger NIL budget and no academic constraints and he hasn't gotten Oregon to the same talent levels as Bama/UGA/OSU.
My expectation because what was purported to support the hire at the time was Freeman would take ND from their historical mean of the typical top 8-15ish range into posting consistently around the top 5

Now maybe there's just an inherent recruiting ceiling at ND and Freeman is currently maxing them out

Then the best course of action--absent better on the field results would be to prioritize a stronger coaching ability for the next coach

Perhaps Freeman's recruiting success or lack thereof can provide a useful litmus test and data point for future hiring decisions if/when the time comes
 

INLaw

Hardcore chooch
Messages
4,537
Reaction score
4,095
My expectation because what was purported to support the hire at the time was Freeman would take ND from their historical mean of the typical top 8-15ish range into posting consistently around the top 5

Now maybe there's just an inherent recruiting ceiling at ND and Freeman is currently maxing them out

Then the best course of action--absent better on the field results would be to prioritize a stronger coaching ability for the next coach

Perhaps Freeman's recruiting success or lack thereof can provide a useful litmus test and data point for future hiring decisions if/when the time comes
This ⬆️
 

CanadalovesND

Well-known member
Messages
6,525
Reaction score
5,946
My expectation because what was purported to support the hire at the time was Freeman would take ND from their historical mean of the typical top 8-15ish range into posting consistently around the top 5

Now maybe there's just an inherent recruiting ceiling at ND and Freeman is currently maxing them out

Then the best course of action--absent better on the field results would be to prioritize a stronger coaching ability for the next coach

Perhaps Freeman's recruiting success or lack thereof can provide a useful litmus test and data point for future hiring decisions if/when the time comes

Winning will make a difference.
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,105
Reaction score
5,458
My expectation because what was purported to support the hire at the time was Freeman would take ND from their historical mean of the typical top 8-15ish range into posting consistently around the top 5

Now maybe there's just an inherent recruiting ceiling at ND and Freeman is currently maxing them out

Then the best course of action--absent better on the field results would be to prioritize a stronger coaching ability for the next coach

Perhaps Freeman's recruiting success or lack thereof can provide a useful litmus test and data point for future hiring decisions if/when the time comes
ND is still ND until it isn’t anymore. There are narratives a new coach can change and need to change in Freeman’s case. Freeman is still new-ish and can still change them. Sadly we all knew he would be learning on the job. I’m flabbergasted that people (not necessarily you) thought Freeman was going to do better than Kelly right away. We can talk about average recruit ranking and dive into the numbers but winning games is the only thing that matters. Hate to use Michigan but they haven’t out recruited ND but they have been worlds better in coaching and developing. Just win.
 

INLaw

Hardcore chooch
Messages
4,537
Reaction score
4,095
ND is still ND until it isn’t anymore. There are narratives a new coach can change and need to change in Freeman’s case. Freeman is still new-ish and can still change them. Sadly we all knew he would be learning on the job. I’m flabbergasted that people (not necessarily you) thought Freeman was going to do better than Kelly right away. We can talk about average recruit ranking and dive into the numbers but winning games is the only thing that matters. Hate to use Michigan but they haven’t out recruited ND but they have been worlds better in coaching and developing. Just win.
Michigan cheated
 

Ndaccountant

Old Hoss
Messages
8,370
Reaction score
5,771
waterboy-we.gif
 

benneboy

And I own every kind of classic car!
Messages
1,250
Reaction score
1,281
This one hurts the most so far. Think this dudes underrated and a top 75 talent.
 

irishandy

Well-known member
Messages
4,340
Reaction score
1,959
Sad that ND lost this one. For the longest time it seemed like this was a ND-UCLA battle, with us leading in early July, and the winning coach that gets him started this job in January vs our coach. I know Brown is one of Freeman's buddies, but he hasn't impressed me.

Was Washington recruiting him for a long time?
 

ndfanatic78

I have unconditional love for every one of you.
Messages
1,555
Reaction score
1,781
Yeah I definitely don't see how anyone could possibly conclude that Brian Hartline has upped the WR quality at OSU during his tenure

They were basically considered WR U even before he got there and produced tons more quality WR draft picks than ND

He's basically just some kind of glorified scrub

View attachment 3056006

View attachment 3056007
Seriously dude just have a good cry and get over it. I promise once you cry it all out it will feel better.
 

PutuporShutup

Banned
Messages
4,824
Reaction score
1,909
My expectation because what was purported to support the hire at the time was Freeman would take ND from their historical mean of the typical top 8-15ish range into posting consistently around the top 5

Now maybe there's just an inherent recruiting ceiling at ND and Freeman is currently maxing them out

Then the best course of action--absent better on the field results would be to prioritize a stronger coaching ability for the next coach

Perhaps Freeman's recruiting success or lack thereof can provide a useful litmus test and data point for future hiring decisions if/when the time comes
It’s the entire package…. Hiring Stuckey Parker and brown is on freeman and impacting us, no doubt. He learns from his mistakes (getting Denbrock) but he’s made some major mistakes that have set nd back from having a chance at a 5ish class.

Best way to right the ship is have a monster 2024 season and win a game or more in the playoffs
 

a mike

Well-known member
Messages
381
Reaction score
309
It’s the entire package…. Hiring Stuckey Parker and brown is on freeman and impacting us, no doubt. He learns from his mistakes (getting Denbrock) but he’s made some major mistakes that have set nd back from having a chance at a 5ish class.

Best way to right the ship is have a monster 2024 season and win a game or more in the playoffs
Agree and those issues you noted above came about due to his lack of experience

I mean it's great to have an alleged whiz bang ace recruiter as a HC but not if it comes at the cost of other significant things

Inevitably a HC will have too much on his plate to get down into the recruiting nitty gritty at the same level he would have as a position coach or coordinator

And Freeman hasn't actually really prioritized recruiting ability/prowess in all his most recent hires. It's kinda been the exact opposite--especially at the coordinator level

Problem being that his deficient experience/x&o's needs to be propped up by very experienced (read old) coordinators that either don't recruit or probably past their prime recruiting

I can't fault him too much for the Stuckey hire. The guy could objectively recruit very very well and it'd be hard to really know too much that the other stuff would occur eventually down the line

But the Brown and Parker hires are essentially the same small timey, crony, hire that Kelly used to make all the time that would kill us

I'm not sure how good Freeman is at coaching his coaches either. Stuckey obviously. Then all Deland and Washington have been doing the past year is coasting. Especially with Deland it's pretty evident the dude has packed it on the recruiting trail. Brown is doing terrible.

This is not even to mention other significant deficiencies in seeing weaknesses on the roster and addressing thru the portal which have basically killed the seasons before they started the past two years (qb in 2022 and wr last year)

Then the absolute dud performances by the team such as Marshall, Stanford, and USC in 2022 and Duke (should have been a L but got extremely lucky), Ville, and Clemson last year

I agree he does seem to learn from his mistakes and improve much better than a guy like Davie, works harder than a guy like Willingham, and is better rounded than a guy like Weis--but all things being equal, he is a step down from Kelly

I didn't mind Kelly moving on because you could clearly see he had reached his ceiling and I was excited to see what Freeman could do--especially with recruiting

Unfortunately I think it may be becoming evident that ND as a program may just have a certain ceiling and they're likely never going to be raking in 5 stars

However, I think classes like last year's are more than realistic and should be the norm and bar minimum acceptable for Freeman given the other tradeoffs that he comes with

That's why what's going on with RB, WR, and DL recruiting right now is unacceptable in my opinion. Especially with RB and WR

Freeman is on the precipice, and his failure with this class has pretty much eliminated his margin for error. They're the type of classes that create huge future holes on the roster and kill seasons like the two I mentioned above. Then it was oline in 2021, WR in 2020, QB in 2018/2019

What separates the top top five or so teams from the maybe the top 15 is they just don't have glaring holes/weaknesses and they do that by stacking class after class after class at each position

It was Kelly's Achilles Heel. Do good at a position for a cycle or two and then take a break, make a wrong asst coach hire, etc and BOOM--recruiting falls off and got problems
 
Top