2016 Presidential Horse Race

[woolybug25]

So how are the Democrats on the right side of women's pay, when their nominee's Foundation pays its top male staffers significantly more than its top female staffers?

I didn't realize that the Clinton Foundation spoke for the entire left for women's pay issues. Also, did you even read my post? I didn't say that Dems are on the right side of women's rights, I simply pointed out that they are labeled as such. As they are on the popular side of most women's issues according to women. In fact, I simply pointed out that the premise was one that GoIrish pointed out.

Please actually read my posts before trying to argue with me. Sheesh.

 

[woolybug25]

I actually don't think the GOP is as bad on Gay rights, women's issues, and immigrants....I think they've just done a very poor job explaining their positions, and people don't actually understand what is a "right" and what is a assumed rights these days.

People think they have a "right" to everything these days, and that the federal governments politics, not our founding docs, should decide them. It's madness.

I'm new here, and libertarian just to clear it up.

Welcome to the site, Broker.

 

[GoIrish41]

I actually don't think the GOP is as bad on Gay rights, women's issues, and immigrants....I think they've just done a very poor job explaining their positions, and people don't actually understand what is a "right" and what is a assumed rights these days.

People think they have a "right" to everything these days, and that the federal governments politics, not our founding docs, should decide them. It's madness.

I'm new here, and libertarian just to clear it up.

Welcome. You think in 30 years of trying to articulate their positions, they might have whittled it down to a cohesive and coherent set of talking points. I'd argue they did great at delivering their messages but were poor in delivering on the promise of their vision. Their policies made rich people richer, middle class people and the poor poorer. Evidence has caught up with them and people aren't buying it anymore. Half of the republicans I know are leaning more toward the moderate part of the scale while some have chosen to try a Hail Mary with a dude like Trump. I think there is an opportunity for Libertarians to help reshape the GOP to something less icky following this election. Perhaps you will explain a little more about "rights" and the perception of them? Perhaps an example or two? Thanks.

 

[kmoose]

I didn't realize that the Clinton Foundation spoke for the entire left for women's pay issues. Also, did you even read my post? I didn't say that Dems are on the right side of women's rights, I simply pointed out that they are labeled as such. As they are on the popular side of most women's issues according to women. In fact, I simply pointed out that the premise was one that GoIrish pointed out.

Please actually read my posts before trying to argue with me. Sheesh.

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I guess my point was that, to single out Republicans for being on the wrong side of women's rights and gay rights is kind of dishonest, considering that the "first family" of the Democrats, the Clintons, have a foundation where equal pay for equal work is apparently just a "sounds good" mantra, not an actual practice. And they are also the ones who brought us "Don't ask, don't tell".

 

[woolybug25]

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I guess my point was that, to single out Republicans for being on the wrong side of women's rights and gay rights is kind of dishonest, considering that the "first family" of the Democrats, the Clintons, have a foundation where equal pay for equal work is apparently just a "sounds good" mantra, not an actual practice. And they are also the ones who brought us "Don't ask, don't tell".

Sweet point. But has nothing to do with my post, so I have no idea why you quoted me.

 

[GoIrish41]

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I guess my point was that, to single out Republicans for being on the wrong side of women's rights and gay rights is kind of dishonest, considering that the "first family" of the Democrats, the Clintons, have a foundation where equal pay for equal work is apparently just a "sounds good" mantra, not an actual practice. And they are also the ones who brought us "Don't ask, don't tell".

A compromise position between their desired state (gays in the military) and the republican position (gays are gross). If Bill Clinton would have had his way, we would have been where we are today more than 20 years ago. Don't ask don't tell a disgusting policy, but only half as bad as the GOP wanted. #incrementalprogress

 

[kmoose]

Sweet point. But has nothing to do with my post, so I have no idea why you quoted me.

Because you appeared to be explaining GoIrish's post?

I understand what you're saying and agree, but that is beyond his point. He is just saying that they aren't exactly always on the perceived side of women's rights. You could add abortion and women health issues to his broader point. Whether any of us agree or disagree, they aren't perceived as friendly to women.

 

[kmoose]

A compromise position between their desired state (gays in the military) and the republican position (gays are gross). If Bill Clinton would have had his way, we would have been where we are today more than 20 years ago. Don't ask don't tell a disgusting policy, but only half as bad as the GOP wanted. #incrementalprogress

So when Republicans offered a compromise in Civil Unions, they were hatred filled bigots. But when the Clintons offer a compromise which requires that gay people remain in the closet; good for them!?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

So when Republicans offered a compromise in Civil Unions, they were hatred filled bigots. But when the Clintons offer a compromise which requires that gay people remain in the closet; good for them!?

I don't believe the Republican platform or the presidential nominee ever actually mentioned Civil Unions. That would have been a reasonable compromise position.

GOP platform team rejects civil unions - POLITICO

ETA: And, as problematic as "don't ask, don't tell" was, the goal was to allow gay people to serve in the military without fear of being discovered. The intent was to take the conversation off the table. That said, it was pretty silly to think that it would work.

 

[kmoose]

I don't believe the Republican platform or the presidential nominee ever actually mentioned Civil Unions. That would have been a reasonable compromise position.

GOP platform team rejects civil unions - POLITICO

So that makes it ok for the Cllintons to keep gays in the military shoved in the closet, when they ran on the promise of allowing gays to openly serve in the military? But the Republicans are the only ones on the wrong side of gay rights?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

So that makes it ok for the Cllintons to keep gays in the military shoved in the closet, when they ran on the promise of allowing gays to openly serve in the military? But the Republicans are the only ones on the wrong side of gay rights?

See my edit above.

The Clintons have been slower than some, but they have changed their positions, as many of us have (me included). The Republican platform hasn't really shifted that much. You'll recall the gay soldier that was booed at the Republican debate in 2012 (EDIT: 2011 - it was the 2012 race).

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None of the candidates defended him. None of the candidates (correct me if I'm wrong) then or this year endorsed the right of gay people to marry.

I don't think the two parties are comparable on these issues.

 

[GoIrish41]

So when Republicans offered a compromise in Civil Unions, they were hatred filled bigots. But when the Clintons offer a compromise which requires that gay people remain in the closet; good for them!?

Except I didn't bring up civil unions to attack republicans like you did with Don't Ask Don't Tell to attack the Clintons. Just pointing out how much your example was not fair or accurate. Carry on!

 

[kmoose]

Except I didn't bring up civil unions to attack republicans like you did with Don't Ask Don't Tell to attack the Clintons. Just pointing out how much your example was not fair or accurate. Carry on!

The Clintons promised gays in the military that, if they were elected, they would be able to openly serve. Once elected, they caved and made the gays stay in the closet. That's not only accurate, but it's also fair to say that they were no friends of gays in the military with THAT policy.

 

[GoIrish41]

The Clintons promised gays in the military that, if they were elected, they would be able to openly serve. Once elected, they caved and made the gays stay in the closet. That's not only accurate, but it's also fair to say that they were no friends of gays in the military with THAT policy.

And yet the vast majority of LGBT people continue to support Clintons over republicans. Weird.

 

[Buster Bluth]

So when Republicans offered a compromise in Civil Unions, they were hatred filled bigots. But when the Clintons offer a compromise which requires that gay people remain in the closet; good for them!?

No, it's just another case of the Clintons triangulating their flanks to gain power. They are power hungry vultures who willingly stabbed their base (read: the liberal movement) in the back by supporting conservative issues merely to take them off the table in election season. It's brilliant politics, but it's also disgusting.

From DOMA to Welfare Reform, the Clintons don't give a shit about liberal issues or the Democratic Party. Hell in 1996 the Clinton camp intentionally withheld down ballot funding--despite a large Presidential race lead--because they wanted a Republican Congress (and to prevent, I believe, Tom Daschle from becoming Majority Leader as he was eyeing a 2000 bid, thus helping heir apparent Gore).

 

[IrishJayhawk]

And yet the vast majority of LGBT people continue to support Clintons over republicans. Weird.

Gay Republicans are also appalled at the party platform.

Log Cabin Republicans | A Message on the GOP Platform from Log Cabin Republicans President Gregory T. Angelo

Date: July 12, 2016

Dear Friend,

There’s no way to sugar-coat this: I’m mad as hell — and I know you are, too.

Moments ago, the Republican Party passed the most anti-LGBT Platform in the Party’s 162-year history.

Opposition to marriage equality, nonsense about bathrooms, an endorsement of the debunked psychological practice of “pray the gay away” — it’s all in there.

This isn’t my GOP, and I know it’s not yours either. Heck, it’s not even Donald Trump’s! When given a chance to follow the lead of our presumptive presidential nominee and reach out to the LGBT community in the wake of the awful terrorist massacre in Orlando on the gay nightclub Pulse, the Platform Committee said NO.

BUT…now is not the time to sit around feeling sorry for ourselves. Log Cabin Republicans has been officially credentialed for the Republican National Convention, and when it convenes in Cleveland in a mere 6 days’ time I want to be able to take a stand, but we’re going to need your support to do it.

Cleveland is rightly making the most of their time in the spotlight, and prices for advertising in area news outlets are sky-high.

That’s why I’m writing to ask for your help.

Please give today and give generously — $500, $250, $100, or whatever you can give would go a long way to ensuring we don’t go quietly into the night.

Take back the Platform. Take back the Party. Stand up today and let the folks on the Platform Committee who paved the way to this foolishness know you’re not going down without a fight!

Sincerely,

Gregory T. Angelo
President

 

[Buster Bluth]

Just saw your edit... We actually don't disagree much... I just think it's weak how it's being sold basically everywhere... He didn't say what all the headlines and blogs say or imply he did...

If you think the comment is off base, attack it,.... No issue.... Just don't completely misrepresent it.

On second thought:

Aside from 9/11, Rudy Giuliani is wrong about no terrorist attacks before Obama | PolitiFact

On July 4, 2002, Hesham Mohamed Hadayet opened fire at Los Angeles International Airport, killing two and injuring four. Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, died after being shot by an airport security guard.

In October 2002, John Allen Muhammad and his accomplice, 17-year-old Lee Boyd Malvo, randomly gunned down 10 people in Washington. They were arrested by police and SWAT officers on Oct. 24.

The snipers’ motives were myriad. Malvo drew sketches depicting his acts as jihad and testified that Muhammad, a member of the Nation of Islam, lectured him on the religion. He also said Muhammad wanted to start a revolution over "the continued oppression of black people."

On July 28, 2006, Naveed Afzal Haq killed one woman and injured five others at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle.

A witness told the Associated Press that Haq declared himself "a Muslim American, angry at Israel" before opening fire

n March 2006, UNC graduate Mohammad Reza Taheri-azar drove an SUV onto campus, injuring nine pedestrians.

He turned himself in following the attack and sent several letters to UNC’s student newspaper from jail declaring his intentions to exact revenge for Muslims.

 

[kmoose]

See my edit above.

The Clintons have been slower than some, but they have changed their positions, as many of us have (me included). The Republican platform hasn't really shifted that much. You'll recall the gay soldier that was booed at the Republican debate in 2012 (EDIT: 2011 - it was the 2012 race).

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Xwoh6g05hj4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

None of the candidates defended him. None of the candidates (correct me if I'm wrong) then or this year endorsed the right of gay people to marry.

I don't think the two parties are comparable on these issues.

Republicans are individually coming around, in numbers. It's not enough, yet, to change the official party platform, but it is just a matter of time:

300 Top Republicans (Yes, Republicans) Just Asked The Supreme Court To Support Gay Marriage - The New Civil Rights Movement

 

[Bubbles]

And yet the vast majority of LGBT people continue to support Clintons over republicans. Weird.

Lol. Yep, weird. Almost like there is some physiological process at work that subconsciously and selectively 'confirms' experiences and information that substantiate your existing beliefs while invalidating and ignoring those that contradict it.

 

[GoIrish41]

Lol. Yep, weird. Almost like there is some physiological process at work that subconsciously and selectively 'confirms' experiences and information that substantiate your existing beliefs while invalidating and ignoring those that contradict it.

Or ... stay with me here ... LGBT voters believe Republicans don't have their best interest at heart ...

 

[Buster Bluth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU5-OoU8H6s

Probably a little low brow for some of the heavy thinkers out here.

Nah I really liked that.

Broken families are a large issue. I don't think it's the issue like Carolla says, I instead go with campaign finance reform, but it's a large one.

I don't have broken family figures in front of me and I'm going to hit the hay right now, but I did stumble upon this graph the other day, Teen Birth Rates Per 1000 Females, Ages 15-19.

Trends in Teen Pregnancy and Childbearing - The Office of Adolescent Health

That's a remarkable improvement. Good news like this doesn't make the commentary though.

 

[Bubbles]

Or ... stay with me here ... LGBT voters believe Republicans don't have their best interest at heart ...

You're just proving my point. The American left brain is collectively dead. Its not about critical thinking, logic and facts...its about beliefs and feelings. Left, right, center...up and fucking down....wherever you are...dig in deeper and deeper because you are right by virtue of self importance. Maybe we need more reality T.V.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Republicans are individually coming around, in numbers. It's not enough, yet, to change the official party platform, but it is just a matter of time:

300 Top Republicans (Yes, Republicans) Just Asked The Supreme Court To Support Gay Marriage - The New Civil Rights Movement

I think what is happening in the GOP is pretty simple. The establishment and much of the more socially liberal members don't give a damn about gay marriage, but the older and more diehard members (who actually show up to vote and more importantly buy the books the candidates want to sell) are deeeeeep in the bubble and oppose gay marriage. So what do the shells of human beings known as politicians do? They preach to the people who show up and will throw money their way to write a book saying they're right and that their world is under attack...and voila the GOP is still against gay marriage.

One funeral at a time they will lighten up.

 

[Buster Bluth]

You're just proving my point. The American left brain is collectively dead. Its not about critical thinking, logic and facts...its about beliefs and feelings. Left, right, center...up and fucking down....wherever you are...dig in deeper and deeper because you are right by virtue of self importance. Maybe we need more reality T.V.

I lol'd.

 

[phgreek]

On second thought:

Aside from 9/11, Rudy Giuliani is wrong about no terrorist attacks before Obama | PolitiFact

...work place violence

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I think what is happening in the GOP is pretty simple. The establishment and much of the more socially liberal members don't give a damn about gay marriage, but the older and more diehard members (who actually show up to vote and more importantly buy the books the candidates want to sell) are deeeeeep in the bubble and oppose gay marriage. So what do the shells of human beings known as politicians do? They preach to the people who show up and will throw money their way to write a book saying they're right and that their world is under attack...and voila the GOP is still against gay marriage.

One funeral at a time they will lighten up.

Right on.

 

[Bubbles]

I think what is happening in the GOP is pretty simple. The establishment and much of the more socially liberal members don't give a damn about gay marriage, but the older and more diehard members (who actually show up to vote and more importantly buy the books the candidates want to sell) are deeeeeep in the bubble and oppose gay marriage. So what do the shells of human beings known as politicians do? They preach to the people who show up and will throw money their way to write a book saying they're right and that their world is under attack...and voila the GOP is still against gay marriage.

One funeral at a time they will lighten up.

So much yes....but also....change a few of the nouns around and you hit the nail on the head of the Democratic party too. Politics is madlibs. The only constant is that those filling in the blanks want to keep filling in the blanks, and those listening want to keep laughing.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Trump campaign undergoes overhaul | Fox News

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

AP: Trump chair routed Ukrainian money to D.C. lobbyists - POLITICO

 

[woolybug25]

AP: Trump chair routed Ukrainian money to D.C. lobbyists - POLITICO

If someone's a republican, and they're not concerned, then they simply aren't paying attention. Trump makes consistently concerning comments about Russia, meanwhile... Ivanka isn't off vacationing with Putin's girlfriend and yahcting off Croatia with. Billionaire Clinton sonar.

This is your candidate, Patriots...

As the Daily Wire reported on Monday, Donald Trump’s eldest daughter Ivanka and her husband Jared Kushner spent time vacationing with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s reported girlfriend Wendi Deng Murdoch, who was formerly married to billionaire Rupert Murdoch.

Now, Ivanka is off yachting with Hollywood billionaire David Geffen, a current Hillary-backer, a close friend to President Obama and a big-money Democratic donor. (Which is odd, since, Donald Trump has successfully painted himself as a total “outsider.”)

After Vacationing with Putin’s Girlfriend, Ivanka Yachts with Democratic Hollywood Billionaire | Daily Wire