2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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wizards8507

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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TMywOal05s0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Liberal Democrat Barbara Jordan. "The commission sees no justification to the continued entry of unskilled foreign workers unless the rationale for their admission otherwise serves a significant national interest, as does the admission of nuclear family members and refugees."

What a racist.
 
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Cackalacky

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Not that any one cares or remembers but i posted this in September about the same damn discussion. $50 billion is low considering long term maintenance and construction and manning the damn thing. In response to a series of questions by good ol Polish Leppy on Construction costs:
Well...... professionally and educationally I have over 16 years in the civil engineering field. I have seen a lot of things get built. I have designed some of them my self. I have to bid, price, and propose on projects for all kinds of Fed, state local governments. Construction is just one piece of the pie. There will have to geotechnical engineers, project manager, multiple contractors and subs, purchasing of rights of way. I can go on.....but you get my point.

The nuts and bolts of it are obviously fluid like will it be a chain link fence? Probably not? Reinforced concrete driven sheet piles? Maybe... Better. Reinforced concrete wall too thick to dig through, too high to climb and too deep the go under... best. Likely.....nope. So assuming it will be something like what Israel has. Concrete sheet panels that can be breached and crossed anyway.

Now what about some of the areas where the land sucks....we are gonna need a better designed wall here with improvements to the soil. Do we put walls in the areas that are not easily crossed or present natural geographic barriers? Can't have any holes in if you are gonna do it right. Gotta have surveyors and civil guys plot out the path and identify the route of the Wall.

What about DHS staff stations? How many? How far from the wall? Infrastructure to support these stations? Gotta have food water, plumbing, training rooms, surveillance rooms, IT infrastructure (secured). I am betting there is little or insufficient infrastructure except at the few large cities along the border. So now we have to build a new system or bring in new pipes attached to older ones from far away. We will have to take care of all the people needed to run this operation.

What's the point of what chain link fence in open dessert? Not really one at all. Total waste of money. Are we gonna monitor the fence line with men or drones? Both? IR cameras? Video? Routine patrols by foot and.car.... massive manpower?
 
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connor_in

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="ro" dir="ltr">Accept no substitute! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AlCzervik2016?src=hash">#AlCzervik2016</a> <a href="https://t.co/LRs8M8JHZy">pic.twitter.com/LRs8M8JHZy</a></p>— Brad Thor (@BradThor) <a href="https://twitter.com/BradThor/status/702940066289733632">February 25, 2016</a></blockquote>
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pkt77242

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This isn't necessarily directed at anyone here, but it's pretty funny when I hear my liberal pals talk about how expensive it will be to build the wall, and then also mention how they support universal healthcare, expansion of social security, and free college tuition.

This is easy. See, I am already paying for healthcare so it is really just changing who I pay. Same thing for college. I have 3 children, my wife and I are stuffing money into 529 plans, again just changing where the money is going. I haven't seen enough on the social security expansion to really comment on it. Also I don't mind paying a slightly higher tax to help poor people get those opportunities.
 

kmoose

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What does a random tombstone have to do with anything? You are suggesting it is better to build a wall at great expense to Americans to stop the inevitable attack to our southern border -- even though nothing like that has happened in more than a century. It's just nonsensical fear mongering.

No, I'm not. Saying so just makes it easier for you to debate your "con" side of the matter. The point is not to stop some attack on the Southern border. The point is to make the Southern border more secure, so that our enemies cannot just walk across the border and infiltrate the US. That's not saying that they can't find other ways........ but why make it so easy that you invite them to do so? You can't just do nothing.

That random tombstone is the tombstone of one Kathryn Steinle; shot to death in San Francisco by an illegal immigrant who was the recipient of America's repeated benevolence.
 
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Buster Bluth

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This isn't necessarily directed at anyone here, but it's pretty funny when I hear my liberal pals talk about how expensive it will be to build the wall, and then also mention how they support universal healthcare, expansion of social security, and free college tuition.

Kinda like when conservatives walk around acting like they have a monopoly on fiscal responsibility and then blow enough money parading around Iraq to pay for free college tuition for 75+ years. Or when they simultaneously cut taxes on the wealthy which exacerbates the huge hole they put in the debt with the aforementioned Iraq War.

Or when they pass Medicare Part D to buy votes in Florida for 2004 and don't pay for that.

If I didn't know any better I'd say a big difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals actually suggest ways to pay for it.

The argument put forth by those filthy money-spending liberals is to approach health care like our other anglosphere brethren who raise taxes and then magically lower the health care costs:

US_spends_much_more_on_health_than_what_might_be_expected_1_slideshow.jpg


The expansion of social security is to be paid for by lifting the cap on social security taxes and other modifications. It's not going to explode the deficit because liberals actually propose a way to pay for it.

Free public tuition, a policy I'm not on board with, is to be paid for by a Wall Street financial tax, and their argument is that the disposable income being put into the economy by young people would offset any damage a mere .01% tax on stock transactions would cause.

I'm not saying they're right, I'm saying by and large when liberals increase the size of government they aren't afraid of finding that money, and that's an enormous difference between the Democrats and Republicans of the last 36 years. Add that to the other huge difference, that Democrats tend to spend domestically and Republicans looooove to waste money overseas, and it's paying for stuff we use domestically or not paying for the things we use abroad.
 
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Buster Bluth

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No, I'm not. Saying so just makes it easier for you to debate your "con" side of the matter. The point is not to stop some attack on the Southern border. The point is to make the Southern border more secure, so that our enemies cannot just walk across the border and infiltrate the US. That's not saying that they can't find other ways........ but why make it so easy that you invite them to do so? You can't just do nothing.

That random tombstone is the tombstone of one Kathryn Steinle; shot to death in San Francisco by an illegal immigrant who was the recipient of America's repeated benevolence.

If we're willing to build a wall that won't work to appease xenophobes because of Steinle's murder, what are we willing to do for the families of all of the murder victims gunned down due to the copious amounts of guns floating around the country?
 

GoIrish41

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This isn't necessarily directed at anyone here, but it's pretty funny when I hear my liberal pals talk about how expensive it will be to build the wall, and then also mention how they support universal healthcare, expansion of social security, and free college tuition.

Universal health care, SS expansion and free college tuition all would benefit real people and, by extension, the country as a whole. A net positive. A wall? Not so much. A massive waste of money to solve a problem that really doesn't exist. It would be akin to erecting a giant middle finger to our southern neighbors and would eventually make food and construction prices in this country skyrocket -- a net negative.
 

kmoose

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The expansion of social security is to be paid for by lifting the cap on social security taxes and other modifications. It's not going to explode the deficit because liberals actually propose a way to pay for it.

But Social Security isn't supposed to be Welfare. You are supposed to get a return back on YOUR money, not provide higher returns for people who paid in less.
 

GoIrish41

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No, I'm not. Saying so just makes it easier for you to debate your "con" side of the matter. The point is not to stop some attack on the Southern border. The point is to make the Southern border more secure, so that our enemies cannot just walk across the border and infiltrate the US. That's not saying that they can't find other ways........ but why make it so easy that you invite them to do so? You can't just do nothing.

That random tombstone is the tombstone of one Kathryn Steinle; shot to death in San Francisco by an illegal immigrant who was the recipient of America's repeated benevolence.

Are we really just doing nothing? A bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?
 

kmoose

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If we're willing to build a wall that won't work to appease xenophobes because of Steinle's murder, what are we willing to do for the families of all of the murder victims gunned down due to the copious amounts of guns floating around the country?

You do realize that our enemies from anywhere in the world could just walk across the Mexico-US border, and presumably bring in WMDs, right? It's not about Mexicans. But trying to portray it as that will certainly make those who are not against a wall look like racists, therefore impugning their character and diminishing the effect of their words, right?
 

kmoose

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Are we really just doing nothing? A bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?

I didn't say that we are currently doing nothing. I'm saying that, while a wall may not be the ultimate answer, it could very well be an integral piece of the puzzle and therefore it is worth trying it.
 

tussin

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Universal health care, SS expansion and free college tuition all would benefit real people and, by extension, the country as a whole. A net positive. A wall? Not so much. A massive waste of money to solve a problem that really doesn't exist. It would be akin to erecting a giant middle finger to our southern neighbors and would eventually make food and construction prices in this country skyrocket -- a net negative.

1. Universal healthcare, while great in theory, won't work in the US and the electorate doesn't seem to even want it. Why push to expand Obamacare when half the country freaking hates it?

2. I actually don't even see the theoretical benefit of social security, particularly for aging workers. Why do I need the federal government to help me save for retirement? The "R" in RSDI should be eliminated.

3. Instead of free college, why don't we instead focus on bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US and strengthening the value of trade schools? More workers and less college-educated bartenders.
 

GoIrish41

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You do realize that our enemies from anywhere in the world could just walk across the Mexico-US border, and presumably bring in WMDs, right? It's not about Mexicans. But trying to portray it as that will certainly make those who are not against a wall look like racists, therefore impugning their character and diminishing the effect of their words, right?

To the extent that this is true, couldn't they do that from Canada, too? Are we gonna build a wall there as well?
 

woolybug25

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You do realize that our enemies from anywhere in the world could just walk across the Mexico-US border, and presumably bring in WMDs, right? It's not about Mexicans. But trying to portray it as that will certainly make those who are not against a wall look like racists, therefore impugning their character and diminishing the effect of their words, right?

When has this ever happened?

I didn't say that we are currently doing nothing. I'm saying that, while a wall may not be the ultimate answer, it could very well be an integral piece of the puzzle and therefore it is worth trying it.

People keep saying, "why not, let's just give it a shot to see if it works". It's not like we are spending five bucks at a fast food joint we have never tried, we are talking about BILLIONS of tax payer dollars.
 

wizards8507

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1. Universal healthcare, while great in theory, won't work in the US and the electorate doesn't seem to even want it. Why push to expand Obamacare when half the country freaking hates it?
Liberals are judged on their intentions, never their outcomes. "Health care for everyone" is a noble goal, to hell with the fact that the policies to implement socialized medicine result in lower-quality care, reduced choice, skyrocketing costs, and a crippled economy.

2. I actually don't even see the theoretical benefit of social security, particularly for aging workers. Why do I need the federal government to help me save for retirement? The "R" in RSDI should be eliminated.
Yup. Please oh please will some candidate let me opt out? They can keep whatever I've paid in so far.

There are models that show that if you privatize social security and then allow people at retirement age to keep their privately-held accounts or to receive a payout equal to what they would have gotten under the existing system, it would never be beneficial to take the publicly-funded option. The returns are that bad.

3. Instead of free college, why don't we instead focus on bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US and strengthening the value of trade schools? More workers and less college-educated bartenders.
Yup. Free education sounds great, but it doesn't actually benefit society when people are studying things that add zero value. Taxing productivity in order to subsidize unproductive is completely backwards.
 
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Buster Bluth

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You do realize that our enemies from anywhere in the world could just walk across the Mexico-US border, and presumably bring in WMDs, right? It's not about Mexicans. But trying to portray it as that will certainly make those who are not against a wall look like racists, therefore impugning their character and diminishing the effect of their words, right?

You do realize there is another border to the north they could just walk on in through, especially if they had the means to acquire a WMD, right?

The US has had and will continue to have porous borders. This is nothing more than corporations trying to get a big fat paycheck.

If you don't think there is an enormous amount of people who support Trump's wall due to xenophobia, that's okay. But you'd have to ignore the history of just about every other group of people who flocked to the US in large numbers.
 
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Buster Bluth

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But Social Security isn't supposed to be Welfare. You are supposed to get a return back on YOUR money, not provide higher returns for people who paid in less.

Not exactly true. You are supposed to get a return paid for by multiple people the next generation. Those damn baby boomers didn't have enough kids and decided to live longer, and also handed an economy to the next generation with stagnate wages that haven't kept up with costs.

I say we tell grandma to either get pregnant or jump off a bridge.
 
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wizards8507

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When has this ever happened?
Illegal immigrants account for 12% of murder convictions in the United States. There were 14,000 homicides in the US in 2013. That puts about 1,700 per year committed by illegal immigrants. That's the equivalent of 9/11 every other year.
 

Irish#1

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Most of the talk now is of building a 2 layer fence which requires more land, more supplies, etc.

So lets say 1000 miles of fence. We have built 670 so we need to build 330 more and we also need to double layer the original fence.

Finally lets be honest, we will be making so many repairs to that fence that upkeep will be through the roof.

Trump is brilliant. Not only does he solve "that" problem, but he just reduced unemployment by putting people to work building the wall.
 

GoIrish41

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1. Universal healthcare, while great in theory, won't work in the US and the electorate doesn't seem to even want it. Why push to expand Obamacare when half the country freaking hates it?

2. I actually don't even see the theoretical benefit of social security, particularly for aging workers. Why do I need the federal government to help me save for retirement? The "R" in RSDI should be eliminated.

3. Instead of free college, why don't we instead focus on bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US and strengthening the value of trade schools? More workers and less college-educated bartenders.

1. Why won't it work in the United States? Works great in a lot of countries.

2. The proposal on the table, as I understand it, is to remove the cap that people pay to SS. You don't see the benefit of SS? Wow, MILLIONS of people who have benefitted from it over the years since FDR put it into place would surely disagree with you.

3. How are you going to bring those manufacturing jobs back? Are we going to cut American wages to what they are in China so we can be more competitive? That's the only way those jobs are coming back because our laws reward corporations with huge tax benefits even when they send American jobs overseas. I'm all for bolstering trade schools. Our economy needs all types of workers. We should be positioning ourselves to be the world leader in clean energy technology and moving away from fossil fuels. That makes the Middle East less of a U.S. priority so we don't have to involve ourselves in ancient religious conflicts that we have no business being involved with. We should be hiring underemployed Americans to rebuild our infrastructure so that we don't leave our children and grandchildren with structural problems.
 
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wizards8507

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2. The proposal on the table, as I understand it, is to remove the cap that people pay to SS. You don't see the benefit of SS? Wow, MILLIONS of people who have benefitted from it over the years since FDR put it into place would surely disagree with you.
Those MILLIONS of people would have benefited even more if they kept the money that was taken from their paychecks and invested it themselves. MILLIONS of people benefit from exercising, eating spinach, reading, and investing. Just because something benefits people doesn't mean it's a good idea for the fucking government to do it. The government sucks at actually DOING things, meaning (almost) any government program that "benefits people" would benefit them even more if it was administered by someone other than the government.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Illegal immigrants account for 12% of murder convictions in the United States. There were 14,000 homicides in the US in 2013. That puts about 1,700 per year committed by illegal immigrants. That's the equivalent of 9/11 every other year.

Help me out which one of these says "murdered by illegal immigrants," I can't read Spanish.

m6208qsf.gif


But never mind let's deport the population of Ohio because of 1,700 murders annually. Makes super duper sense.
 

wizards8507

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Help me out which one of these says "murdered by illegal immigrants," I can't read Spanish.

m6208qsf.gif
What the fuck? Just because it's a small percentage of TOTAL deaths doesn't make the lives of those murdered by illegals irrelevant. "Murdered on 9/11" wouldn't be statistically significant enough to make it on that chart either, so maybe we should just ignore terrorism as well?

But never mind let's deport the population of Ohio because of 1,700 murders annually. Makes super duper sense.
1. We're talking about a wall, not mass deportation.

2. Build the wall, put in eVerify, and they'll leave on their own. The reason they're staying is because it's economically advantageous to do so. We're basically paying to import unskilled labor. That's brainless.
 

woolybug25

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Illegal immigrants account for 12% of murder convictions in the United States. There were 14,000 homicides in the US in 2013. That puts about 1,700 per year committed by illegal immigrants. That's the equivalent of 9/11 every other year.

Don't post numbers like that without a reference, please. I'm not buying that number, so pony up the link.

Also, he specifically said that terrorist with WMD's was a concern. I'm simply asking for one example, over the last 240 years, where that was attempted.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Those MILLIONS of people would have benefited even more if they kept the money that was taken from their paychecks and invested it themselves.

You don't know that. On one hand you constantly bring up how incompetent people are that they can't succeed in the US because it's soooooo easy, and now you want to act like if everyone just did it themselves they'd all be better off? Your stances aren't lining up.

But let me guess, you don't care about the idea of millions of elderly poor.

MILLIONS of people benefit from exercising, eating spinach, reading, and investing. Just because something benefits people doesn't mean it's a good idea for the fucking government to do it. The government sucks at actually DOING things, meaning (almost) any government program that "benefits people" would benefit them even more if it was administered by someone other than the government.

The idea of social security is a safety net for the elderly poor, who are often uneducated and would blow their money on Glenn Beck books and coin collecting. The program has done a pretty remarkable job reducing the number of elderly who live in poverty, and has helped their children's quality of life too now that they aren't coughing up the thousands to pay for grandma's costs. It is a very popular program for that reason, I guess I'm sorry it doesn't fit with a view that the US should function like the 18th century.
 

Irish#1

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Not exactly true. You are supposed to get a return paid for by multiple people the next generation. Those damn baby boomers didn't have enough kids and decided to live longer, and also handed an economy to the next generation with stagnate wages that haven't kept up with costs.

I say we tell grandma to either get pregnant or jump off a bridge.

I realize your joking, but SS is in the shape it's in because the government liked to borrow against it. I remember my first check and the WTF is that when I saw the deduction. Then I said okay since I'll get it back when I retire. Then it was WTF again when I find out I won't get everything back that I contributed.
 

GoIrish41

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Those MILLIONS of people would have benefited even more if they kept the money that was taken from their paychecks and invested it themselves. MILLIONS of people benefit from exercising, eating spinach, reading, and investing. Just because something benefits people doesn't mean it's a good idea for the fucking government to do it. The government sucks at actually DOING things, meaning (almost) any government program that "benefits people" would benefit them even more if it was administered by someone other than the government.

Yes, that is why before there was Social Security, all the elderly people benefitted greatly from the private investments they made during their working lives? Oh, that's right, that didn't happen. Just as it wouldn't happen today because, in case you haven't heard, all the money is going to the top 1% while everyone else's real wages are stagnant as prices continue to climb. You are talking about one of the most successful anti-poverty programs in American history (always a government run program) at the same time you are saying that the government can't do anything right.
 

pkt77242

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Illegal immigrants account for 12% of murder convictions in the United States. There were 14,000 homicides in the US in 2013. That puts about 1,700 per year committed by illegal immigrants. That's the equivalent of 9/11 every other year.
Doubtful. Texas only has about 7.5% and they have a large illegal immigrant population (and that 7.5% is by all noncitizens illegal and legal). I highly doubt it is 12% across the nation, and I find it unlikely that it is even 5% nationally.
Tom Tancredo muffs illegal immigrant murder stats | PunditFact
 
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