2014 Spring Practice Thread

[pkt77242]

Nix and Tuitt wouldnt be potential first rounders if they played in a 4-3. Fit is important, and while no one wants tk lose two potential first rounders, changing a Defensive philosophy for two players would be stupid and cripple the defense.

What? They would both be first round/2nd round picks (Tuitt will probably go in the 2nd either way) if they played in a 4-3.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

IMO, Tuitt and Nix would crush college football as DTs in a 4-3.

Tuitt would. Nix wouldn't. You dont see 340+ linemen in a 4-3 for a reason. 4-3 defenses rely on winning individual matchups, which Nix never really had the move set to do. Tuitt did, but Big Lou was all about sucking up defenders so that linebackers could make plays which makes him so valuable in a 3-4.

 

[koonja]

Again… we are playing in a different scheme. So a NT isn't a concern when we don't have one on the field. Also… Nix wasn't the 2012 Nix last year. He wasn't getting double teamed every play and missed a lot of time.

Regardless, I don't expect Jarron Jones to be the Nix of 2012 or 2013 until I see a reason to think that.

That's just not true. He often was getting singled by TE's and teams routinely ran against him.

Your memory must be better than mine. I remember him getiting single teamed, but not ran at.

You're acting like every team that runs a pro set Oregon loses to. Stanford is an anomaly, not the rule. I'll put Oregon up against 90% of the pro set teams with a 3-4 defense all day.

Oregon's proved time and time again their style is no good against elite teams. They play in a good not great conference and can't stick with SEC/Stanford style teams, IMO.

Who made that argument? It certainly wasn't me. Also, not all SEC teams run a spread. But go look at Auburn from last year and tell me that it was a defense built on stopping the run.

Must have been IrishLax then. For the record, I don't disagree with him.

Obviously you don't...

My bad.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

FYI guys, "uptempo" and "spread" offenses are different things. Auburn does not run a spread offense, it runs a zone-read uptempo.

But back on point, I agree with pkt77242 -- part of the strategy of the uptempo is to wear out opponents over the course of the game. One way to defend that is to limit their possessions (or fake injuries).

 

[pkt77242]

Tuitt would. Nix wouldn't. You dont see 340+ linemen in a 4-3 for a reason. 4-3 defenses rely on winning individual matchups, which Nix never really had the move set to do. Tuitt did, but Big Lou was all about sucking up defenders so that linebackers could make plays which makes him so valuable in a 3-4.

You can. The Vikings for a long time had Pat Williams as one of their DT in a 4-3 (Pat was 350+, maybe as much as 380) and Kelvin Williams at the other DT at 290-300. They had one of the best run defenses when they had them together and would take Pat off the field on passing downs.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

You can. The Vikings for a long time had Pat Williams as one of their DT in a 4-3 (Pat was 350+, maybe as much as 380) and Kelvin Williams at the other DT at 290-300. They had one of the best run defenses when they had them together and would take Pat off the field on passing downs.

And two down players don't usually go in the first round of the draft.

 

[koonja]

You can. The Vikings for a long time had Pat Williams as one of their DT in a 4-3 (Pat was 350+, maybe as much as 380) and Kelvin Williams at the other DT at 290-300. They had one of the best run defenses when they had them together and would take Pat off the field on passing downs.

Being a die-hard Brett Favre fan (you think I like Bryant, you should see my Favre collection), this is an excellent example.

 

[woolybug25]

First off I don't have a problem with those types of offenses but I have seen nothing to make me think that we will have an offense like any of those three this year.

As to those teams, I would say the times that those teams lose, they are beat by an aggressive defense and an offense that keeps them off the field (think Stanford beating Oregon, even UCF vs Baylor). You wear out the spread teams defense that way by keeping them on the field and running it down their throats plus the fact that their offense isn't on the field long enough to give them a breather (either because they scored to fast or punted/turnover).

That's not true. Those are just some examples. Oregon lost to LSU in '11 and Baylor lost to Okie St last year. So they lose to spread teams too. Running a spread doesn't automatically mean that you beat every team on your schedule. A lot of pro set teams lost to Stanford too, so does that mean that pro set systems don't work?

To your second point, that is exactly why a spread offense team can't have a big, oversized run stopping defense. If you score fast and put your defense on the field a lot, they better be athletic, fast and deep. That isn't the type of personnel that fits a run stopping philosophy.

 

[Buster Bluth]

(you think I like Bryant, you should see my Favre collection)

For a 'coon you make a lot of dead horse jokes.

 

[koonja]

That's not true. Those are just some examples. Oregon lost to LSU in '11 and Baylor lost to Okie St last year. So they lose to spread teams too. Running a spread doesn't automatically mean that you beat every team on your schedule. A lot of pro set teams lost to Stanford too, so does that mean that pro set systems don't work?

To your second point, that is exactly why a spread offense team can't have a big, oversized run stopping defense. If you score fast and put your defense on the field a lot, they better be athletic, fast and deep. That isn't the type of personnel that fits a run stopping philosophy.

I get your point and agree to it to some point, but looking at specifically this year's personal vs. last year's, you'd much rather have Tuitt/Nix starting with Okwara/Jarron/Ishaq to spell them than Jones, Okwara, Ishaq starting with ? to spell them.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

You can. The Vikings for a long time had Pat Williams as one of their DT in a 4-3 (Pat was 350+, maybe as much as 380) and Kelvin Williams at the other DT at 290-300. They had one of the best run defenses when they had them together and would take Pat off the field on passing downs.

Being a die-hard Brett Favre fan (you think I like Bryant, you should see my Favre collection), this is an excellent example.

We also have to remember that the talent level and depth at D-Line in the pros is so much better than in college. Where as pro teams can afford to sub in a 4-3 NT on third down like that, we don't have that much depth after our starters, so we need our guys to be a little lighter on the line, especially if we want to run an uptempo offense. When I hear 4-3 DT, all I can keep thinking about are players like Derek Landri and Ian Williams, which I believe Jarron Jones and Sheldon Day can emulate at some point.

 

[woolybug25]

Oregon's proved time and time again their style is no good against elite teams. They play in a good not great conference and can't stick with SEC/Stanford style teams, IMO.

How??? They have only lost to three teams in three years (Stan, USC and LSU) and have won two BCS games and another bowl game in the last three years. What "elite team" are you referring to that exposed them? They simply lost to three better teams (one of which is an uptempo team).

If that is "Getting Exposed", then i'll take that every year. Oregon is 1-1 against the SEC in the last three seasons and 12-1 out of conference in that time. You are talking out of your ass again, Coon.

 

[woolybug25]

I get your point and agree to it to some point, but looking at specifically this year's personal vs. last year's, you'd much rather have Tuitt/Nix starting with Okwara/Jarron/Ishaq to spell them than Jones, Okwara, Ishaq starting with ? to spell them.

I would rather have a healthy Tuitt/Nix. But we aren't replacing a healthy Tuitt/Nix are we?

 

[ulukinatme]

but...but...but...I thought Sparty wasn't on the schedule this year?

Haha, true, but there are other teams on the schedule that will eat up clock against us and play pretty good defense. I don't see us scoring 40 against them, we'll be lucky to get more than 20 with the way we've been scoring in the red zone.

IMO, Tuitt and Nix would crush college football as DTs in a 4-3.

It pains me to say it, but I agree. Look at the Pitt game from last year. Their DT was a monster, and while we were able to neutralize him a bit after a few quarters, we certainly weren't able to make much of it. When you consider having 4 defensive linemen with 2 DEs controlling the edge and two tough DTs that are more than capable of handling a blocker 1 on 1 and even draw double teams, I think Tuitt and Nix would have been incredibly disruptive for an offensive line if they were both in the middle causing havoc. Of course, that would mean we need two good DE's to provide a pass rush and control the outside, but I think Shembo and probably Ishaaq coudl have done that.

You're acting like every team that runs a pro set Oregon loses to. Stanford is an anomaly, not the rule. I'll put Oregon up against 90% of the pro set teams with a 3-4 defense all day.

But Oregon does struggle against Pro Set teams. Oregon only plays a one or two teams in the PAC with tough defense and an offense that will grind it out against you, but when they have faced these teams outside the conference they struggle. I wouldn't say Stanford is an anomaly either, as more times than not in recent years they seem to have Oregon's number. Maybe not all of the tough defensive teams Oregon has played against have 3-4 defenses, but against the ones with good defense Oregon has struggled. Stanford is the obvious choice already mentioned, but theres also the bowl game against OSU in the 2009 season where Tressel ball prevailed, the championship against Auburn in 2010, LSU in 2011, USC the same year, and Oregon narrowly edged Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl that season. USC probably would have had their number more often if they didn't have Kiffin the last 4 years. It's no secret that the key to beating Oregon is to bring a tough defense against their Spread, and wear out their own defense by eating clock and pounding the ball. I really liked our chances against them in 2012, it's a shame they lost in the regular season when KSU also went down.

What? They would both be first round/2nd round picks (Tuitt will probably go in the 2nd either way) if they played in a 4-3.

Yup, I think both guys would still be 1st rounders if they were DTs in the 4-3, or maybe early 2nd round for a healthy Tuitt.

 

[koonja]

How??? They have only lost to three teams in three years (Stan, USC and LSU) and have won two BCS games and another bowl game in the last three years. What "elite team" are you referring to that exposed them?

If that is "Getting Exposed", then i'll take that every year. Oregon is 1-1 against the SEC in the last three seasons and 12-1 out of conference in that time. You are talking out of your ass again, Coon.

Listen here, tough guy.

Oregon kills everyone, besides ground and pound teams like you mentioend above. LSU, Stanford, and USC, all run focused teams, and Oregon may beat everyone else by 35, but they struggle mightly against these styles. Going from winning by 35+ to being beaten by 2 scores is a red flag, IMO. And we play more 'run focuesd' teams than Oregon.

We don't have as easy of a schedule like Oregon, so we wouldn't be turning out 30 point wins like Oregon can do against the PAC 12. We play USC, Stanford, Michigan State, Michigan (although that's going away), and I bet ACC teams are more run oriented than PAC 12 but I don't know that as fact.


You think our DL will be better or as good, I think that's nuts. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[tko]

I can't get used to " The Koon" name change.

 

[koonja]

I can't get used to " The Koon" name change.

Me neither. Seriously considering just going back to my name and just changing my name in real life. Much easier than this madness.

 

[dublinirish]

Oregon plays Michigan State Sept 6th gonna be fascinating to watch

 

[woolybug25]

Listen here, tough guy.

Oregon kills everyone, besides ground and pound teams like you mentioend above. LSU, Stanford, and USC, all run focused teams, and Oregon may beat everyone else by 35, but they struggle mightly against these styles. Going from winning by 35+ to being beaten by 2 scores is a red flag, IMO. And we play more 'run focuesd' teams than Oregon. We don't have as easy of a schedule, so we wouldn't be turning out 30 point wins like Oregon can do against the PAC 12. We play USC, Stanford, Michigan State, Michigan (although that's going away), and I bet ACC teams are more run oriented than PAC 12 but I don't know that as fact.


You think our DL will be better, I think that's nuts. Let's agree to disagree.

Stanford kills Oregon, not all "ground and pound" teams. They are 2-1 against USC in the last three seasons and LSU was an uptempo team in '11, not a ground and pound team. They also beat Stanford, Texas, USC and Wisconsin during that time.

 

[greyhammer90]

Listen here, tough guy.

Oregon kills everyone, besides ground and pound teams like you mentioend above. LSU, Stanford, and USC, all run focused teams, and Oregon may beat everyone else by 35, but they struggle mightly against these styles. Going from winning by 35+ to being beaten by 2 scores is a red flag, IMO. And we play more 'run focuesd' teams than Oregon. We don't have as easy of a schedule, so we wouldn't be turning out 30 point wins like Oregon can do against the PAC 12. We play USC, Stanford, Michigan State, Michigan (although that's going away), and I bet ACC teams are more run oriented than PAC 12 but I don't know that as fact.


You think our DL will be better, I think that's nuts. Let's agree to disagree.

I think part of the problem with your analysis is that your assuming that it's their style of play to blame. There could be plenty of other things that lead to them losing against those teams.

One possibility, is that their schedule most years is a joke until they reach Stanford or (some years) USC. They just aren't mentally prepared to play a good team because they spend all of September and half of October beating the crap out of Tennessee Tech.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

It pains me to say it, but I agree. Look at the Pitt game from last year. Their DT was a monster, and while we were able to neutralize him a bit after a few quarters, we certainly weren't able to make much of it. When you consider having 4 defensive linemen with 2 DEs controlling the edge and two tough DTs that are more than capable of handling a blocker 1 on 1 and even draw double teams, I think Tuitt and Nix would have been incredibly disruptive for an offensive line if they were both in the middle causing havoc. Of course, that would mean we need two good DE's to provide a pass rush and control the outside, but I think Shembo and probably Ishaaq coudl have done that.

Aaron Donald for Pitt was awesome, but look as his build, which is what I'm saying about the whole Nix in a 4-3 thing. Donald is 6-1, 285. Nix's weakness was always winning those individual battles, especially on passing downs, while his strength was destroying double teams and allowing a LB to clean up the running back.

 

[pkt77242]

We also have to remember that the talent level and depth at D-Line in the pros is so much better than in college. Where as pro teams can afford to sub in a 4-3 NT on third down like that, we don't have that much depth after our starters, so we need our guys to be a little lighter on the line, especially if we want to run an uptempo offense. When I hear 4-3 DT, all I can keep thinking about are players like Derek Landri and Ian Williams, which I believe Jarron Jones and Sheldon Day can emulate at some point.

It really isn't a matter of depth, because if we were taking off Nix on 3rd down we would have probably put a DE in his spot to get better pass rush. Also the pros don't really have better depth as they are so limited on roster size. It is much easier to have a pass rushing specialist on an 85 man roster in college than a 53 man roster in the pros (and you can only have 46 of those active for any game).

 

[koonja]

I think part of the problem with your analysis is that your assuming that it's their style of play to blame. There could be plenty of other things that lead to them losing against those teams.

One possibility, is that their schedule most years is a joke until they reach Stanford or (some years) USC. They just aren't mentally prepared to play a good team because they spend all of September and half of October beating the crap out of Tennessee Tech.

So you think 'prepardness' is what makes them go from beating teams by 30+ to getting handled by strong run teams? I just disagree. I think that's too big of a gap to bridge by blaming being 'unprepared'.

I have to check out of this before I get fired . Good discussion so far though!

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

I'm not terribly worried about Jarron in for Nix this year. I think there could be some growing pains, but Jarron looked pretty good when he was in last season. I'm more worried about the end position. Rochelle has the size to be a DE in the 3-4, but who else is behind him and Day? If one of those guys goes down again it's going to be hard for the DL to control the outside I think. We have a lot more guys suited as 4-3 DE's than 3-4. I'm definitely more worried about Tuitt's loss than Nix's at the moment, even though NT is the most important position in the 3-4.

Rochell is listed at 287, which for reference is the exact same listed weight as Julius Peppers. He'd be a very good strongside DE who could bump inside on passing downs. Ishaq and Okwara can both play DE on either side, and Jarron plays full time DT. Really a pretty solid group overall, even with an experience gap (which will happen when your 2 all-american level players graduate in the same year).

A lot of guys are going to have to step up this year in the DL and LB corps, and there's definitely going to be some hiccups, but there is a lot of talent on this defense.

 

[pkt77242]

Aaron Donald for Pitt was awesome, but look as his build, which is what I'm saying about the whole Nix in a 4-3 thing. Donald is 6-1, 285. Nix's weakness was always winning those individual battles, especially on passing downs, while his strength was destroying double teams and allowing a LB to clean up the running back.

Many 4-3 teams have one bigger DT (300+ pounds) and one faster (and smaller) DT who is used like Donald. A 4-3 team would be best to have both of them. Nix to clog the middle, while Donald is shooting into the back field and disrupting the play.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Anyway...I think Koyack is going to have a huge year!

 

[ulukinatme]

Oregon plays Michigan State Sept 6th gonna be fascinating to watch

I'm willing to bet Michigan State wins this one, unless they take a big step back from last year. If their defense remains stout, and they don't forget how to move the ball like they did at the beginning of last season, they'll be more physical and dominate.

Stanford kills Oregon, not all "ground and pound" teams. They are 2-1 against USC in the last three seasons and LSU was an uptempo team in '11, not a ground and pound team. They also beat Stanford, Texas, USC and Wisconsin during that time.

Even when LSU was up tempo, I would say they still ran the ball very well and could pound the ball. LSU only passed for 98 yards in that game and scored 40 points. Of course, Oregon also struggled holding onto the ball, they had 4 turnovers against that defense. As far as USC, Oregon probably goes 0-3 against the Trojans during that time if Petey was still coaching. Wisconsin gave Oregon all they could handle in that Rose Bowl, they lead for a good portion of that game.

Also, Texas sucks....at least since Colt McCoy left.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

It really isn't a matter of depth, because if we were taking off Nix on 3rd down we would have probably put a DE in his spot to get better pass rush. Also the pros don't really have better depth as they are so limited on roster size. It is much easier to have a pass rushing specialist on an 85 man roster in college than a 53 man roster in the pros (and you can only have 46 of those active for any game).

1. In a 4-3, we wouldn't have to take out that NT, since we have 2 DT around 6' 300 pound lineman who can play more snaps.

2. The drop off in quality from 1st team to 2nd team in college is far greater than in the NFL. Thats why the players are there in the NFL: they're the best of the best from college.

Overall, what I'm trying to say is that a 3-4 has a lot of "specialty" players who each have their own, very specific assignment, especially in Diaco's system. A 4-3 allows a player to be a jack of all trades so to speak and lets individuals to just go out and win a one on one battle. With the individual skill we have on the D-Line (I'm talking about busting gaps, individual pass rush moves, etc.), Nix would have not been AS effective in a 4-3.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

When I hear 4-3 DT, all I can keep thinking about are players like Derek Landri and Ian Williams, which I believe Jarron Jones and Sheldon Day can emulate at some point.

Ian Williams is a NT, even if a smaller one. He was never anything special at getting penetration in the backfield.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

Many 4-3 teams have one bigger DT (300+ pounds) and one faster (and smaller) DT who is used like Donald. A 4-3 team would be best to have both of them. Nix to clog the middle, while Donald is shooting into the back field and disrupting the play.

That's a good point, but with the way I feel the defense will gamble on blitzes and force turnovers next year, those two smaller DTs disrupting the backfield, rushing the passer, shooting gaps would fit better than a big ol' NT on the line.