2012 NCAA Lacrosse Open Thread

IrishLax

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For someone that doesn't really understand lacrosse that much (me) can you explain a little bit about what ND is trying to do on offense, on defense, and what to look for at a given time?

Certainly. I could give you everything down to the very very nitty gritty of what we run... but I'm pretty sure you're looking for the abridged version.

In general, offense and defense in lacrosse is extremely similar to basketball. Basketball is 5v5... lacrosse is 6v6.... and the way help defense works in basketball is extremely similar to how defense is played in lacrosse. Also similar to basketball, zone defenses are used in some cases these situations are particularly in man-down situations... but we've also seen a rash of zone defenses used over the past year or so as both a base defense and a situational defense at the end of quarters. The main problem with zone defense is that you aren't pressuring the ball so you won't get it back if the other team isn't trying to score... so you can't really use it if you're losing.

On offense, it's again very comparable to basketball. You have motion offenses that rely heavily on passing and cutters to break a defense down. You have offenses that rely heavily on 1v1 dodging. You have offenses that rely heavily on outside shooting... and others that rely on jamming the ball inside. But in general, most offenses rely on some combination of all of the above. I'll now get into the basics of what ND tries to do, but first here is a glossary of terms.

Dodging - This is when a ball carrier tries to run by their individual defender using a myriad of different moves. Just like taking your guy off the dribble in basketball.
Slide - The slide is the defender who "slides" to double to ball or otherwise cover an offensive player. So if the on-ball defender gets "dodged" another defender has to "slide" to pick up the ball carrier and stop him from scoring.
2 - When a player "slides" as mentioned above, he leaves the man that he was covering open. When this happens, the player who is "2" goes to cover the guy that was left open. The player who is "2" is always the player who is covering the offensive player who is the smallest threat to score. Therefor, he can leave him open until the players can recover.
Recover/backside - If you think about it, the player who's the smallest threat to score is usually the guy furthest away from the ball OR behind the cage where he can't catch and shoot immediately. This is usually referred to as the backside of the play. So after you slide to an offensive player, thereby leaving players open as you have 2 defenders on 1 guy, you eventually have to "recover" and get everyone matched up 1v1 again. This is usually accomplished by having the man who was beaten recover (run) to the crease or backside of the play to cover the man who was left open before the offense can get the ball to him.

Defense
At Notre Dame, we run a pretty unique defensive system (although over the past 3 years a lot of teams out there have tried to copy it with less success) that functions by making our defensive personnel as homogeneous as possible. The reason is that we switch every slide and every pick. So while a lot of teams freak out about having a midfielder (guy with a short stick) instead of a defender (guy with a long stick) covering an attackman... we don't. When teams run 2 man games (basically a pick-and-roll) we always switch. We'd rather we defend a bad matchup than risk getting beat running through a pick.

So, step 1 to our defense is that we switch everything. The next is that we defend the interior (called "the hole" or "the paint" as another basketball reference, and closer to the goal the area right outside of the goalie crease is called "the crease") as well as humanly possible. We do not let midfielders dodge to the middle from up top to the field unless they are too far away to shoot. We typically do not slide early to attackmen dodging from behind the goal to avoid leaving players open inside or in a shooting position. When we do slide, we almost shift into a quasi-zone around the middle of the field (basically, we put a stick on every player in a shooting position if possible and try to keep our heads on a swivel to stop any pass inside) and the player who slid stays on the man he slid to. The guy who was originally marking the man who was slid to recovers to the middle of the field and finds the uncovered man to mark.

So step 1 is every single person on our defense is trained to be able to cover every single offensive player on the opposition. Step 2 is that we try to force other teams into low angle or far away shots that have the lowest percentage chance of going in. Now step 3 is that every single year for the past 7 years or so we've had an all-american goalie. This is crucial because our defense is designed to let people take outside shots under the assumption that our goalie will save them. We also allow teams to take shots from in close if the shooter has a poor angle. If we so much as had an "average" goalie the whole scheme falls apart as too many shots find the back of the net over a long period of time.

So to recap, we basically have the defense function as a singular organism with constant communication, switching, etc. It's very complex... almost manic. If a player gets a shot from less than ~10 yards away and a greater than 45 degree shooting angle then we had a breakdown. Any other shot is one we're willing to give up and expect to save.

Offense
During my time at ND, we were originally a team that looked to feed the crease with Ryan Hoff (3x All-American) as our crease attackman. He was electric and could finish any ball that he caught. Today, you see many teams in the NCAA play with Canadian finishers on the crease who are similar to style in Ryan (albeit more creative with their shot making). But we don't play that style any more as we don't really have any attackmen with that skill set. Only Ryan Mix really plays that style of game... and frankly, he doesn't play it at a high enough level right now. He just doesn't finish enough of his opportunities.

So what we run now was an offense largely installed in my latter years at ND. It's a dodge-first style attack designed to create both assisted and unassisted scoring chances. The reason we run this kind of offense is that we have tremendous talent and depth in our midfield. Most teams only run 2 true lines of midfielders. We run 3 lines and do it very evenly. We out work other teams. Unlike a lot of teams that rely on star players, we rely on balance. In today's game against Georgetown we had 9 goals from 8 different players. That is VERY rare. It's effective... but not as effective as we would like. And that's largely a problem with the attack.

What you'll see is most of our offense initiated from up top through our midfield. The goal is for the offensive player to beat their man and force the defense to slide to defend or the midfielder takes the shot himself if they don't come to double. If they do send a slide, it causes the defense to start rotating. So we swing the ball to the next man (or do a skip pass) and then immediately look to throw it to the backside to an open player for a shot if it's there. If it's not there, then the offense basically restarts from the wing or behind the goal or up top... either though an attackman or midfielder who tries to beat their man to create a shot or cause a slide. Rinse and repeat.
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So I'm sure that's all clear as mud, but that's our offensive and defensive philosophies in a nut shell. I'll try to find some video clips to help illustrate.
 

IrishLax

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This is a good example of quintessential bad defense and how a slow recovery to the backside cost Denver the game.

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Watch how two Denver players pick up Foley as he comes into the box (#23 and #33). The problem is that #23 is extending out way too far trying to pressure the ball and doesn't account for Foley's speed. It's at the 5 second mark of the video where he makes this mistake. #33 does a good job of recognizing that his teammate just got dusted and crashes down hard to take away Foley's angle from driving towards the goal. If he doesn't Foley walks in for a goal. Everything is fine to the 7 second mark, just good help defense. Where they lose the game is as #23 recovers to the middle of the field.

Maybe he is tired from triple overtime. But he just doesn't run to the crease at full speed. Instead he runs at half speed and keeps his eyes on Foley. Then Denver screws themselves by sending another slide at Foley. Foley causes this by taking a jab step inside but it's just a poor defensive play by the Denver player. Foley is not in a scoring position nor in an immediate position to threaten the goal.

So now, because of the second slide and the slow recovery from the initial defender... Foley has effectively occupied 3 Denver defenders by simply dodging hard with speed from the right wing. A freeze frame at the 9 second mark shows this. You see the 3 defenders Foley has occupied, 1 defender on the crease not directly marking anyone and watching Foley, and 1 defender in the low backside defending an attackman behind the goal. So really, at this point, you have effectively occupied 4 defenders with one simple right handed speed dodge and a jab step to nowhere. I cannot stress how horrible this defense is.

DenverDefense.png


This leaves 1 defender unaccounted for and 3 Notre Dame players unaccounted for. So at this juncture, ND should be able to get a player open for a shot assuming 1 person can't cover 3. It turns out that Foley's move behind the goal has shifted ND temporarily into a 1-3-2 formation with 1 midfielder high in the center at the top of the box, 1 midfielder on the right wing space Foley vacated, 1 attack in the high crease about 8-10 yards away from the goal, 1 attack and Foley behind the goal, and Sean Rogers on the left wing. The midfielders, because of their positioning, are not in position to score. Neither Foley nor the attack player behind the goal is in a position to score. So that leaves 2 people in shooting positions and 1 defender not on screen.

If you hit play from the 9 second mark you see that the defender not on screen is covering the player on the high crease. The open player is Sean Rogers on the left wing and he cuts to the goal. Foley sees him, makes the skip pass, and Rogers fires a shot to the top right corner for the game winning goal right before getting hit. If Denver recovers to the backside a half-second faster that clean shot probably isn't there.
 

IrishLax

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So if the above is an example of a defense giving the ball carrier too much attention and therefor leaving passing options open... the following is an example of the opposite. Start at the 1:33 mark.

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The first play you see is what I was talking about with switching on picks. St. John's doesn't switch... the on-ball defender gets picked, the player that was covering the pick man doesn't help him, and because St. Johns is so worried about not giving up a feed inside there is no one in position to slide and meet the ball carrier. They are all marking their men on the top side of the goal. So Doyle takes it in himself for the score. If this is Notre Dame playing defense, we switch immediately and the pick play never happens. That is, the on ball defender switches to covering the player setting the pick every time. And the player originally covering the player who goes to set the pick waits for the offensive player and picks them up.

You see something similar all the way in the rest of the video. St. Johns is committed to not sliding early. They would rather ND take an outside shot than slide and give up a pass. This decision kills them as they are simply very late on all of their slides. Being overly cautious leads to an abundance of ~10 yard shots which we bury in the back of the net. Because their defenders could not cover our players 1v1, and they held their slides until it was too late, it leads to open shots off the dodges.

So watching these two videos basically shows you how our offense works. If they slide to us, we move the ball and make them pay with an assisted goal. If they don't slide to us, we make them pay with an unassisted goal. The biggest issue we have is that we haven't shown superb shooting accuracy from the outside nor do we have an elite finisher on the inside. So while we have great scoring balance and do a good job of creating chances both ways... we are not converting these chances to goals at an elite rate. For all of those 10 yard shots you see us bury in the corner in the highlight videos... there are an equal number that miss the cage.
 

Wolverine1997

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April 16 USILA Coaches Poll

1. Loyola (6)
Massachusetts (4)
3. Cornell
4. Virginia
5. Notre Dame
6. Johns Hopkins
7. Duke
8. Maryland
9. North Carolina
10. Denver
11. Villanova
12. Lehigh
13. Colgate
14. Princeton
15. Syracuse
16. Penn State
17. Fairfield
18. Bucknell
19. Bryant
20. Yale

loyola seems to be a pretty legit team. Did not expect them to go into denver and beat them. Deserving of the #1 spot IMO. They'll most likely play them again in denver since the ECAC Tournament is hosted by denver this year, and denver should be able to handle fairfield.
 

Wolverine1997

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This Week in the ECAC


4/17 #15 Syracuse at Hobart (3-7, 1-3 ECAC)

4/21 Air Force (6-5, 1-3 ECAC) at ohio (6-6, 3-1 ECAC)
4/21 #1 Loyola (11-0, 5-0 ECAC) at Hobart (3-7, 1-3 ECAC)
4/21 Bellarmine (3-7, 0-6 ECAC) at Detroit
4/21 #10 Denver (7-4, 3-2 ECAC) at #17 Fairfield (10-2, 3-1 ECAC)
4/21 Michigan (1-11, 0-5 vs ECAC teams) at Rutgers
 

Downinthebend

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Some of that is above me at the moment, but I'll try to understand it more and keep an eye on it during ND games. If I have any questions, I'll ask.
 

IrishLax

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Some of that is above me at the moment, but I'll try to understand it more and keep an eye on it during ND games. If I have any questions, I'll ask.

Hah I just re-read my posts.... clear as mud LOL. Wrote them at like 3 AM last night while half-assing a survey report. I'll try to do better.
 

IrishLax

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Whens the next game, and why doesn't ND play Michigan?

We didn't play Michigan this year for a number of reasons. Wolverine and I had a lonnnnnnnnnnng discussion on the reasons, but the bottom line is ND and Michigan will likely start playing sometime in the next 3 years as Michigan adds more talent.

Next game is as Peoria mentioned. Villanova is one of the best offensive teams in the country (basically Denver with speed but less crafty shooting) but their defense can be suspect at times. They play at a fast pace and winning faceoffs will likely determine the winner of the game.
 

IrishLax

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Want to know how tightly stacked the RPIs are? Syracuse beating Hobart (3-8 Ho-freaking-bart) moved Duke from the #7 spot to the #3 spot.
 

IrishLax

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Highlights from the Georgetown game:

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IrishLax

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ND just picked up a goalie in the 2014 class who is a consensus top 5 player. This compliments our current freshman Conor Kelly who was the #1/#2 goalie in country last year.

#GoalieU. It's been nearly a decade since we've had a goalie that WASN'T an all-american.
 

IrishLax

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Thats pretty good, is ND a recruiting powerhouse in lacrosse?

No, not in the least. But it's really picked up recently as we've been so consistently good for the past 5 years. Almost had a top 5 class last year. Like any sport, kids want to go where they can win... but it also really helps having Catholic school inroads and the #1 business school.

Our goalie/defensive coaches are the best in the business though and ever since Joey Kemp (our current goalie John Kemp's older brother) was a first team All-American and his successor Scott Rodgers was also an All-American and current Team USA goalie... it's very attractive for top flight goalies to come to ND.
 

IrishLax

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ND moves to #4 in the RPI with Duke's win over Maryland and Virginia's loss to North Carolina.
 

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Showdown in the 'Shoe on TV right now on BTN. Air Force hanging with Ohio State early but not getting any offense. Looks like a rainy day in Columbus.

Georgetown vs. Syracuse on ESPNU at 3 PM.

ND vs. Villanova on ESPNU at 5:30 PM.
 

IrishLax

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And OSU has blown it open before halftime. Ohio State is one of the bigger Jekyll and Hyde teams of this year.... when they show up, they can play with just about anyone in the top 10 and stomp lesser teams... when they don't show up, they struggle mightily to score goals and have incredible mental lapses on clearing and defense. But they've shown up in the first half.
 

Wolverine1997

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Wow ohio is impressing me. Crappy weather, and they were up 9-0 at one point. Their throwback jerseys are ugly as hell. Hopefully the weather will be better when my family and friends make the trip down there for when Michigan plays them at the shoe.

Right now #1 loyola is blowing out hobart on the road in the 2nd period, 8-2. If loyola holds on, they will win the outright ECAC championship. They already hold a share of the title and the #1 seed in the ECAC Tournament.
 

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Michigan's game at rutgers tonight at 7pm EST will be streamed live for free on the rutgers athletic site, if you're interested IrishLax.
 

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Here come the statesmen storming back! hobart put in two quick ones before the half ended. They trail 8-4.
 

Wolverine1997

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And loyola wins 17-6 to clinch the outright ECAC championship.

They move to 10-0, and a perfect 6-0 in conference.

If #17 fairfield beats #10 denver at home later today, they tie for 2nd in the conference with ohio, whom they play next weekend.

The ECAC Tournament will feature loyola, denver, fairfield and ohio. All that is left to decide is their seedings. denver obviously has the biggest advantage since they're the host.
 

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#17 fairfield upsets #10 denver 9-8 in overtime. The stags move to 10-2 and 4-1 in the ECAC. denver falls to 7-4 and an average 3-3 in the ECAC.

This means denver is locked into the 4 seed for the tournament since their regular season is over. That means they will get loyola in a rematch in the same building they lost to them in this season.

fairfield will host ohio next weekend. The winner of that game will get the #2 seed, but what does it matter? fairfield and ohio are locked into playing one another in the ECAC Tournament.
 

IrishLax

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Navy beats Johns Hopkins 8-2............. Navy hadn't beaten Hopkins in over 20 years and has now beaten them twice in the past 3 years. Not quite the level of Navy beating ND.... but man, this is monumental. What makes it even crazier is that these past 4 years have featured some of the worst Navy teams in their history.

Johns Hopkins held to their lowest goal output against Navy since 1925. The last time a class of midshipmen defeated Hopkins twice was the class of 1974. Now the classes of 2012 and 2013 can say they've done it too.

F*cking Denver is killing ND. OT loss to Cornell and Fairfield today.... really falling apart as a quality win. If ND wins against Villanova today and Syracuse next week they will be a lock for a top 4 seed even if they lose in the Big East tournament.
 

IrishLax

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Brown scores with 4 seconds left to beat Cornell!!!

And Georgetown upsets Syracuse 10-8.... making next week's game for Syracuse against ND an absolute must win for the Orange.

ND moves up to #3 in the RPI heading into today's game against Villanova. With a win, ND probably moves up to #2. Outing the Wildcats will be mighty tough though and there have been a lot of upsets today already.
 
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