My take on the state of Notre Dame Football

[CarrollVermin]

I don't understand this thread or most of my fellow fans. Like the rest of you, I want success, and I want it now. But we are not too far removed from a 3-9 season and back to back 6-6 seasons as well.

We are at the point where we dominate the teams we should beat (Army, Navy, Maryland) and we compete with everyone else. It is not too long ago we lost to UCONN and Syracuse...AT HOME.

We have back to back 8 win seasons and we should hit that mark, or surpass that mark next season. When was the last time we could say that and know that a sub-500 season wasn't on the horizon? We are recruiting at a high level, we are developing most positions, and when we find a viable option or run the offense, we will find success.

And you cannot compare the success of other coaches at other programs to ND. Kelly fights an uphill battle with the administration on a daily basis, as did Charlie and Willingham before him. Is it any wonder Meyer picked Florida the first time around??? This is not an easy job, but because of schedule or talent, but because the school makes it difficult for you. Add a fan base with unrealistic expectations, and you have a pressure cooker with no outlet. Expect great things in year three and four. If you don't see success at that point, we can have this discussion.

 

[notredomer23]

I don't understand this thread or most of my fellow fans. Like the rest of you, I want success, and I want it now. But we are not too far removed from a 3-9 season and back to back 6-6 seasons as well.

We are at the point where we dominate the teams we should beat (Army, Navy, Maryland) and we compete with everyone else. It is not too long ago we lost to UCONN and Syracuse...AT HOME.

We have back to back 8 win seasons and we should hit that mark, or surpass that mark next season. When was the last time we could say that and know that a sub-500 season wasn't on the horizon? We are recruiting at a high level, we are developing most positions, and when we find a viable option or run the offense, we will find success.

And you cannot compare the success of other coaches at other programs to ND. Kelly fights an uphill battle with the administration on a daily basis, as did Charlie and Willingham before him. Is it any wonder Meyer picked Florida the first time around??? This is not an easy job, but because of schedule or talent, but because the school makes it difficult for you. Add a fan base with unrealistic expectations, and you have a pressure cooker with no outlet. Expect great things in year three and four. If you don't see success at that point, we can have this discussion.

spot on and exactly my point. reps brotha

 

[phork]

I don't understand this thread or most of my fellow fans. Like the rest of you, I want success, and I want it now. But we are not too far removed from a 3-9 season and back to back 6-6 seasons as well.

We are at the point where we dominate the teams we should beat (Army, Navy, Maryland) and we compete with everyone else. It is not too long ago we lost to UCONN and Syracuse...AT HOME.

We have back to back 8 win seasons and we should hit that mark, or surpass that mark next season. When was the last time we could say that and know that a sub-500 season wasn't on the horizon? We are recruiting at a high level, we are developing most positions, and when we find a viable option or run the offense, we will find success.

And you cannot compare the success of other coaches at other programs to ND. Kelly fights an uphill battle with the administration on a daily basis, as did Charlie and Willingham before him. Is it any wonder Meyer picked Florida the first time around??? This is not an easy job, but because of schedule or talent, but because the school makes it difficult for you. Add a fan base with unrealistic expectations, and you have a pressure cooker with no outlet. Expect great things in year three and four. If you don't see success at that point, we can have this discussion.

We are not going to be better than 8 wins next year. We lose too much on offense, plus the writing is on the wall for Golson to take control. That means ANOTHER new QB starting.

You missed dominating teams like USF, oh wait we lost, but atleast we beat them in the statistic categories! We did not compete with USC or Stanford, they controlled those games. After reading his ND is his dream job snippet, I really don't think Meyer would pick ND over OSU. He is now at his dream job, it was never ND.

Expect great things in year 3 or 4? And if not? IMO Kelly is on a shortening leash. This offense looks totally lost for a coach who said his priority was defense because he could "manufacture" offense. I don't see it. Yes I see the stats, I also see the TOs which is no longer on the players because it has happened over the course of a season. That now falls on the coaching and the preparation lacking or otherwise.

I called it in the game thread, no TOs == we win. We can't stop the bleeding, and here we are bleeding out again. If you can show me 8 or 9 SURE victories on next years schedule, I would love to see them.

 

[rikkitikki08]

All im saying is if you bring down the turnovers this team probably finishes 10-2........Limit the turnovers and this team will look much better next season. Plain and Simple

 

[CarrollVermin]

We are not going to be better than 8 wins next year. We lose too much on offense, plus the writing is on the wall for Golson to take control. That means ANOTHER new QB starting.

You missed dominating teams like USF, oh wait we lost, but atleast we beat them in the statistic categories! We did not compete with USC or Stanford, they controlled those games. After reading his ND is his dream job snippet, I really don't think Meyer would pick ND over OSU. He is now at his dream job, it was never ND.

Expect great things in year 3 or 4? And if not? IMO Kelly is on a shortening leash. This offense looks totally lost for a coach who said his priority was defense because he could "manufacture" offense. I don't see it. Yes I see the stats, I also see the TOs which is no longer on the players because it has happened over the course of a season. That now falls on the coaching and the preparation lacking or otherwise.

I called it in the game thread, no TOs == we win. We can't stop the bleeding, and here we are bleeding out again. If you can show me 8 or 9 SURE victories on next years schedule, I would love to see them.

Yes, the expectation is there for year three and four. Give the guy a chance to build a program, not have flash in the pan success and then scramble for three years after that. Once he gets players to fully meet his system I will expect more than what I see right now.

What I do see is growth in the defense, stout line play, developing younger athletes, and quality recruiting. We don't score 35 a game, but we aren't giving up 36 either. He is building the right way, for sustained success. If that continues, then he will be fine. I'm not givin him a pass on anything, and I've been as critical of Kelly as anyone on this board, but I'm not calling for his head in year two, not when you need to build consistency in a program and need to settle recruiting down as you move forward.

 

[phork]

Yes, the expectation is there for year three and four. Give the guy a chance to build a program, not have flash in the pan success and then scramble for three years after that. Once he gets players to fully meet his system I will expect more than what I see right now.

What I do see is growth in the defense, stout line play, developing younger athletes, and quality recruiting. We don't score 35 a game, but we aren't giving up 36 either. He is building the right way, for sustained success. If that continues, then he will be fine. I'm not givin him a pass on anything, and I've been as critical of Kelly as anyone on this board, but I'm not calling for his head in year two, not when you need to build consistency in a program and need to settle recruiting down as you move forward.

How do you compare Brady Hoke to Kelly? Turned around a defense to the tune of 90 places in total defense, is playing with someone elses recruits. Is going to a BCS game. Beat our own beloved Kelly. Is currently killing it in recruiting, top 3 class? 3-4 years is light years in the college world.

 

[CarrollVermin]

Good question. I would say see what happens in years three and four, and more importantly what happens when Denard leaves and Mattison retires or goes back to the pros. He has a GREAT defensive coordinator, one of the better ones in the game. He made a quality hire, but can he sustain that in the long run? Mattison will be getting a lot of calls at the end of the year. I'll put it this way, if CW had Mattison while he was here, we would still be looking at CW as our head coach.

 

[CarrollVermin]

And in that, I'm not undervaluing Hoke. He has a record of success, but the defense was what made them make the jump. Still, that falls under the umbrella of the head coach, so I do give Hoke credit.

Am his recruiting is a little overvalued by the size of the class and OSU's troubles. Again, let's see what he does with the groceries first.

 

[phgreek]

6-6. Book it.

...not expecting 10 wins, but I'm pretty confident we'll win more than 6...

 

[phork]

...not expecting 10 wins, but I'm pretty confident we'll win more than 6...

Name them, with confidence.

 

[phgreek]

Name them, with confidence.

I absolutely expect to win the following:

Navy
Purdue
Michigan State
Stanford
BYU
Pitt
Boston College
Wake Forest

I would say Michigan, but I just know that little bastard will scurry around and **** us over somehow.

I think Miami will catch us if we beat everbody before them, namely Michigan, so not confident there.

Oaklahoma, USC...I think those are bonafide upsets if we win.

 

[Grahambo]

The Irish committed at least three turnovers for the sixth time this season. They finished with 29 on the year, including nine inside the opponents' 25-yard line, eight in the red zone and six inside the 10.

 

[bjohnmwc]

^^^ This. I'm not sure many people are considering that this is a huge missing piece of the puzzle that Rees simply does not possess. Rees is a great kid and pretty darn good QB at times. It's plain to see that his skillset simply does fit this offensive scheme.

And I think that this is what Kelly was getting at earlier in the season when he made the comment about fans seeing "his" players on the field vs. the ones he inherited. I know he (rightfully so) pissed off a lot of people, but I think that Kelly probably had this idea in the back of his mind.

Personally, I think Rees saw his last start. Hendrix was not ready yet, which is why he split time w/Rees, and why burn Golson's redshirt.

 

[DillonHall]

I absolutely expect to win the following:

Navy
Purdue
Michigan State
Stanford
BYU
Pitt
Boston College
Wake Forest

I would say Michigan, but I just know that little bastard will scurry around and **** us over somehow.

I think Miami will catch us if we beat everbody before them, namely Michigan, so not confident there.

Oaklahoma, USC...I think those are bonafide upsets if we win.

BYU and at MSU are anything but guaranteed wins. And even though Luck will be gone, the last two years against Stanford haven't been close.

 

[stlnd01]

BYU and at MSU are anything but guaranteed wins. And even though Luck will be gone, the last two years against Stanford haven't been close.

On Stanford, really? We had a solid shot to win that game, just like USC. We just didn't get the breaks when we needed them.

For instance in the third quarter, we're moving the ball downfield when Hendrix hit Toma on a 3rd down pass that was called a (very borderline) incompletion. If I recall even the announcers thought it was a lousy call. That goes the other way, and we're a play away from 21-14. We also held Stanford to their fewest points all season.

My point is that we played Stanford this year better than the score indicated. Take away Luck, give us a decent QB, put the game in South Bend and it's very winnable next year. MSU is always hard to predict and I don't know enough about BYU to say. But I think people who assume we're looking at 2007 all over again, or even a 6-6 record, are depressed over the way this season ended.

I get that. I'm frustrated too. Yet we were a passable QB away from being 10-2, and even had shots to win those 2. Aside from Floyd we really don't lose that much. We've got some talent coming up. Turnovers can't last forever. I know the schedule's tougher next year but I've got to think 9-3 is a reasonable guess. Not saying it'll definitely happen, but also don't see why it couldn't.

 

[phgreek]

BYU and at MSU are anything but guaranteed wins. And even though Luck will be gone, the last two years against Stanford haven't been close.

Cousins is done as well right? Chose Stanford and MSU as wins because our defense should dominate young QBs.

BYU can be good, they have a saavy QB, some determined and talented receivers, but their Oline just cannot deal with our D line...they don't have a ton of speed on D...they will play as hard as the academies, and are more talented, but no, I don't believe they beat us.

Mobile QB on our side wins all those games. I think there is a "Kelly is stubbourn" contingent out there who think we'll see the same QB play. I'm not one of them. I don't think there is any question at this point, that we'll have a mobile QB that can keep drives alive w/o making desperate and dangerous decisions with the ball come opener 2012. And none of those teams BYU, MSU, Stanford have elite speed on D...

I acknowledge those teams are good...I acknowledge if we are reckless and operating from a limited or one dimensional offense we could have a struggle against every team on our schedule...Like I said, pretty sure that won't be an issue.

I expect to win those games I've identified. What can I say.

 

[DillonHall]

Cousins is done as well right? Chose Stanford and MSU as wins because our defense should dominate young QBs.

BYU can be good, they have a saavy QB, some determined and talented receivers, but their Oline just cannot deal with our D line...they don't have a ton of speed on D...they will play as hard as the academies, and are more talented, but no, I don't believe they beat us.

Mobile QB on our side wins all those games. I think there is a "Kelly is stubbourn" contingent out there who think we'll see the same QB play. I'm not one of them. I don't think there is any question at this point, that we'll have a mobile QB that can keep drives alive w/o making desperate and dangerous decisions with the ball come opener 2012. And none of those teams BYU, MSU, Stanford have elite speed on D...

I acknowledge those teams are good...I acknowledge if we are reckless and operating from a limited or one dimensional offense we could have a struggle against every team on our schedule...Like I said, pretty sure that won't be an issue.

I expect to win those games I've identified. What can I say.

Did you think we'd lose five games this year, including South Florida?

 

[DillonHall]

On Stanford, really? We had a solid shot to win that game, just like USC. We just didn't get the breaks when we needed them.

For instance in the third quarter, we're moving the ball downfield when Hendrix hit Toma on a 3rd down pass that was called a (very borderline) incompletion. If I recall even the announcers thought it was a lousy call. That goes the other way, and we're a play away from 21-14. We also held Stanford to their fewest points all season.

My point is that we played Stanford this year better than the score indicated. Take away Luck, give us a decent QB, put the game in South Bend and it's very winnable next year. MSU is always hard to predict and I don't know enough about BYU to say. But I think people who assume we're looking at 2007 all over again, or even a 6-6 record, are depressed over the way this season ended.

I get that. I'm frustrated too. Yet we were a passable QB away from being 10-2, and even had shots to win those 2. Aside from Floyd we really don't lose that much. We've got some talent coming up. Turnovers can't last forever. I know the schedule's tougher next year but I've got to think 9-3 is a reasonable guess. Not saying it'll definitely happen, but also don't see why it couldn't.

I don't disagree that we should be favored against Stanford and MSU, but we were favored in all but 2 of our 13 games this year. We can play the what-ifs all off-season, but in football, you are what your record is. You don't think BC and Pitt don't think they could have beaten us if "they had gotten the breaks?"

 

[stlnd01]

I don't disagree that we should be favored against Stanford and MSU, but we were favored in all but 2 of our 13 games this year. We can play the what-ifs all off-season, but in football, you are what your record is. You don't think BC and Pitt don't think they could have beaten us if "they had gotten the breaks?"

Yes, you are what your record is, and, yes, Pitt, BC and probably Wake could say they were a break or two from beating us.
But I find it hard to believe we will continue to turn the ball over 3+ times a game and I think we will develop a better quarterback than Tommy Rees was this season. We do that, build on the improvement our lines made this year, and grow a few quality WRs and DBs, and we'll be just fine.

 

[phgreek]

Did you think we'd lose five games this year, including South Florida?

absolutely not...

cold hard truth is...we did ourselves with TOs...

...never saw anything like our season in the turnover dept. I expect that won't happen again. I expect our Qb to be an asset next year in the red zone.


...and no I won't get sucked into the "BK can't judge talent" discussion...

 

[DillonHall]

absolutely not...

cold hard truth is...we did ourselves with TOs...

...never saw anything like our season in the turnover dept. I expect that won't happen again. I expect our Qb to be an asset next year in the red zone.


...and no I won't get sucked into the "BK can't judge talent" discussion...

You can hope for those things, but I don't know how you can expect them. Either we'll have another first-time starter at QB, or we'll have Rees (and it's hard to believe that he'll show improvement similar to that made by Clausen).

 

[dre1919]

My opinion of the state of Notre Dame football is that we are pretty much in the same place as we have been the last several years with a few exceptions. Now, I'm talking in generalities...the breakdowns (such as better defensive recruits, better running game, etc.) tell a more detailed story. However, I am talking about as it pertains to the Willingham / Weis eras versus the Kelly era so far. We obviously backslid as a program under Willingham, and came up stronger under Weis. Weis managed to end our bowl drought, but failed to beat USC (or anyone of any real consequence since that Michigan team, his "signature win" was overrated). He got us into a BCS game, but we got blew out of it.

Kelly has continued the bowl winning, going 1-1. He also solved the USC quandary, again going 1-1. His recruiting is better on the defensive side of the ball, and at least on par with Weis' on the offensive side. I also think we have better position coaches under Kelly, and much better attitude and PR, than under Weis. Are we any closer to winning a BCS game and or NC under Kelly than Weis? Not really. Not yet at least. I think if we get the right components in to contribute to this base that Kelly has begun to build, namely a QB that's not only good but fits Kelly's style, then I think we might be.

With a Notre Dame head coach, we need someone who is a good game manager, good at PR, good at recruiting and assembling excellent staff and someone who knows how to win and uphold the fine traditions of ND. I do think that Kelly CAN be that guy. Is he yet? Not sure. But, more so than most of our recent coaches (dating back to Davie) he's got more potential than the rest. What he needs now is TIME. Great programs are built on depth and a consistency in the system. So, now that we know he can recruit, handle the pressure and mind the store, we need to be patient and see where he can take things. It's not going to happen overnight...but if we give Kelly enough time to build and mold the type of team he wants, I think we can be legit BCS winners. We may not, and Kelly may fail, but at this point in time I believe we're better off than with any other coach we could realistically get.

 

[IrishUte]

I think ND is in the same place as before BK, he has just rearranged the talent. We went from superstars on offensive to superstars on defense.
And I really dont think the type of offense BK runs fits in South Bend, its cold, wet, snowy, in the winter. Lets see if he becomes flexible and runs more of a power game next season. With the loss of Floyd/Eifert(?), and no heir apparent as reciever, I think that fits best.

The schedule next season if difficult, that is why we should look back and realize what a waste this season was, ND was beaten twice, by Stanford and USC, in the other losses they beat them selves. Next season, the potential for 6 or 7 wins is great.

 

[phgreek]

You can hope for those things, but I don't know how you can expect them. Either we'll have another first-time starter at QB, or we'll have Rees (and it's hard to believe that he'll show improvement similar to that made by Clausen).

I expect (well more of a prediction) that whatever QB we trot out will be mobile and won't turn the ball over in the red zone...IMHO mobility is causal as realtes to reduction in TOs, especially in the red zone, well and this is big time division I football, we should expect we don't turn it over in the red zone. I HOPE by the time we play Michigan St., we will have established the QB as a serious run threat. unrealistic?

I expect our QB to be less effective moving the team with a vertical game (no floyd), but 100X more effective with his feet, and as such will have more open short to intermediate options for throwing when he rolls or starts to run. I HOPE a receiver emerges that can become a vertical threat. unrealisitc?

I expect our running backs to be effective between the tackles...enough experience returning there. I HOPE they go over 1000 yards each. unrealisitc?

I expect our O-line to give up 2 sacks a game....couple newbies...one at tackle. I HOPE they don't. unrealisitc?

I expect our Dbacks will get clobbered with jump balls until they learn how to close with urgency, read the receiver, get their head around, and play the ball (and quit with the back turned panic flail). I HOPE they get alot of it in the offseason, and that they have it seriously together by the time we play USC.

I expect fewer opportunities for teams to have time to throw a deep ball....pressure.

I expect no more than 3 100 yard rushers against us next year...Manti et al. I HOPE there are none. unrealisitc?

I expect our defense will keep folks between 10 and 20 / game... won't be in quick change 3-5 times a game. I HOPE its closer to 10. unrealistic?

I expect our defense to turn folks over 15 times...pressure. I HOPE for 25. unrealistic?

I expect a punter that will not continually forfeit field position by doing his best shankasaurous for long periods of time....another year older, and successful at defunking himself already. I HOPE he actually flips some fields for us. unrealistic?

I expect some touchbacks on the kickoff....another year older and stronger. I Hope for 50% of them to be touchbacks. unrealistic?

I expect a punt return average of 3...no reason other than you can fall forward and get 3.... unrealistic? (well maybe)

I expect a place kicker at 70% for FGs, and 97% for PATs...Big time DI football...gotta have it. I HOPE for a placekicker at 80% FGs and 100% PATS. unrealistic?

I expect us to win 8 games...mostly due to a dominant defense and just consistently competent play everywhere else. I HOPE we win them all. unrealistic?

 

[phgreek]

I think ND is in the same place as before BK, he has just rearranged the talent. We went from superstars on offensive to superstars on defense.
And I really dont think the type of offense BK runs fits in South Bend, its cold, wet, snowy, in the winter. Lets see if he becomes flexible and runs more of a power game next season. With the loss of Floyd/Eifert(?), and no heir apparent as reciever, I think that fits best.

The schedule next season if difficult, that is why we should look back and realize what a waste this season was, ND was beaten twice, by Stanford and USC, in the other losses they beat them selves. Next season, the potential for 6 or 7 wins is great.

cincy ain't exactly tropical...offense worked there just fine.

 

[phgreek]

My opinion of the state of Notre Dame football is that we are pretty much in the same place as we have been the last several years with a few exceptions. Now, I'm talking in generalities...the breakdowns (such as better defensive recruits, better running game, etc.) tell a more detailed story. However, I am talking about as it pertains to the Willingham / Weis eras versus the Kelly era so far. We obviously backslid as a program under Willingham, and came up stronger under Weis. Weis managed to end our bowl drought, but failed to beat USC (or anyone of any real consequence since that Michigan team, his "signature win" was overrated). He got us into a BCS game, but we got blew out of it.

Kelly has continued the bowl winning, going 1-1. He also solved the USC quandary, again going 1-1. His recruiting is better on the defensive side of the ball, and at least on par with Weis' on the offensive side. I also think we have better position coaches under Kelly, and much better attitude and PR, than under Weis. Are we any closer to winning a BCS game and or NC under Kelly than Weis? Not really. Not yet at least. I think if we get the right components in to contribute to this base that Kelly has begun to build, namely a QB that's not only good but fits Kelly's style, then I think we might be.

With a Notre Dame head coach, we need someone who is a good game manager, good at PR, good at recruiting and assembling excellent staff and someone who knows how to win and uphold the fine traditions of ND. I do think that Kelly CAN be that guy. Is he yet? Not sure. But, more so than most of our recent coaches (dating back to Davie) he's got more potential than the rest. What he needs now is TIME. Great programs are built on depth and a consistency in the system. So, now that we know he can recruit, handle the pressure and mind the store, we need to be patient and see where he can take things. It's not going to happen overnight...but if we give Kelly enough time to build and mold the type of team he wants, I think we can be legit BCS winners. We may not, and Kelly may fail, but at this point in time I believe we're better off than with any other coach we could realistically get.

I agree...first solid HC we brought in since Lou. Loved Chuck...still do, but he couldn't pick a DC to save his A$$, and D recruiting suffered. Both Lines were SOFT, Dbacks were keystone cops...bad,bad,bad. The others before Chuck...job was too big...both found it easier to bitch about recruiting than to attack it. I hear one of them improved his golf handicap to scratch while at the helm....so there's that.

 

[Chicago Irish Fan]

I didn't even look at this thread the past couple days because I figured it was just one of the many inevitable sky is falling threads after a loss, but I was pleasantly surprised to find it looked at the big picture and had some quality insight. I agree with pretty much everything you said. There will definitely be growing pains next season, but I like the long term outlook of the program.