How to create new traditions w/o stomping on old traditions.

[JoeyGetherall]

Let me start by saying I don't not consider myself a ''traditionalist." They only thing I really truly care about is winning and having our players be respectable citizens on and off the field. They could dress in purple for all I care if it meant the prior stated.

So I want to ask those that consider themselves to be a "traditionalist," how do we balance the old traditions and start new ones at the same time. Because even you can admit that all the football traditions ND enjoys did not start on November 23, 1887. It has been a progression and evolution over time.

Help a fellow fan understand. What are your ideas? How can we have both? What is the balance?


*Note: I thought about putting this on NDNation (where the "traditionalists" really seem to breed) but figured I would just got nonsense from them. Realized I would probably get better, more thought out answers here.

 

[Kak7304]

Let me start by saying I don't not consider myself a ''traditionalist." They only thing I really truly care about is winning and having our players be respectable citizens on and off the field. They could dress in purple for all I care if it meant the prior stated.

So I want to ask those that consider themselves to be a "traditionalist," how do we balance the old traditions and start new ones at the same time. Because even you can admit that all the football traditions ND enjoys did start on November 23, 1887. It has been a progression and evolution over time.

Help a fellow fan understand. What are your ideas? How can we have both? What is the balance?


*Note: I thought about putting this on NDNation (where the "traditionalists" really seem to breed) but figured I would just got nonsense from them. Realized I would probably get better, more thought out answers here.

Good choice. NDNation would just complain about how we don't need new tradition and ask why isn't all the old stuff good enough. Then they'd rant and rave about Kelly and the spread option, jumbotron, Swarbrick, etc., tell you how great things were back in the day, poop themselves and then go to sleep at 6pm.

 

[Kak7304]

And to answer your question, I think they're doing this the right way. Having one game a year reserved for a unique, one-time use uniform allows us to do something new without having to scrap all our tradition. These "Shamrock Series" games are a throwback to the barnstorming days of early ND football and are more traditional than just about anything. This allows us to have a little fun while we celebrate what initially made ND the nationally prominent program it is.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

And to answer your question, I think they're doing this the right way. Having one game a year reserved for a unique, one-time use uniform allows us to do something new without having to scrap all our tradition. These "Shamrock Series" games are a throwback to the barnstorming days of early ND football and are more traditional than just about anything. This allows us to have a little fun while we celebrate what initially made ND the nationally prominent program it is.

Yeah I think it's fun too. As you said it's a cool way to honor a old tradition (barn storming as you put it) and blend in something new that seems to excite current players, future recruits, and younger fans/students (older too, don't want to leave the older guys that get it out). Why is this group not allowed to start their own traditions. Why is it seen as stomping and pissing on something that belongs not to one single person but instead a larger fan base.

 

[kmoose]

Help a fellow fan understand. What are your ideas? How can we have both? What is the balance?

I'm not against new traditions, just so long as they don't step all over the ideals behind the old traditions. "Keeping up with the Jonses" is not an ideal that ND has traditionally stood for. I think you have to look at each new idea, individually. If it symbolizes something that flies in the face of the traditional ideals of the University, then I say it better deliver real, meaningful, significant results. I'm not against a training table, because the athletes are still integrated into the "regular" student population, in almost every other facet of campus life. I'm not against a uniform change, once a year, as long as it is tasteful. When you start getting into 3, 4, 5 uniform changes a year, it seems too much to me like "keeping up with the Jonses". I would be all for a jumbotron, if it enhances the experience of those attending games. I'm not against limited, subtle advertising in the stadium. But if they ever go to "CarFax Field at South Bend", I'd be apoplectic.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

I'm not against new traditions, just so long as they don't step all over the ideals behind the old traditions. "Keeping up with the Jonses" is not an ideal that ND has traditionally stood for. I think you have to look at each new idea, individually. If it symbolizes something that flies in the face of the traditional ideals of the University, then I say it better deliver real, meaningful, significant results. I'm not against a training table, because the athletes are still integrated into the "regular" student population, in almost every other facet of campus life. I'm not against a uniform change, once a year, as long as it is tasteful. When you start getting into 3, 4, 5 uniform changes a year, it seems too much to me like "keeping up with the Jonses". I would be all for a jumbotron, if it enhances the experience of those attending games. I'm not against limited, subtle advertising in the stadium. But if they ever go to "CarFax Field at South Bend", I'd be apoplectic.

I wasn't a member of this site or knew of NDNation (oh the good ol days) when the training table was created. Did they really have a sh*t-fit when it was created?

I agree. I think we should limit the uniform changes to just the Shamrock Series from now on, makes it more special and exciting. I think the Michigan game was a one time thing. And I don't count the helmet change as a uniform change, it was an improvement, even though some tradition was lost with the student managers painting the helmets.

JumboTron yes! And if it's named CarFax Field I'll vomit too, but sponsored by Sprint? What's really the harm?

 

[GreatGolson]

i think swarbricks got it right, once a year have a "special" game, and as for a jumbotron, yes, do it like UM, no ads on the sides, just two nice screens replacing the scoreboards, in my opinion it would help pump up the crowd, especially by showing "oldies" videos and instant replays so we can really let the refs hear it! ultimately, i think ND is right in doing these things, also, when can i get my hands on some of these Golden Shamrock gloves?!

 

[Kak7304]

Yeah I think it's fun too. As you said it's a cool way to honor a old tradition (barn storming as you put it) and blend in something new that seems to excite current players, future recruits, and younger fans/students (older too, don't want to leave the older guys that get it out). Why is this group not allowed to start their own traditions.

Why is it seen as stomping and pissing on something that belongs not to one single person but instead a larger fan base.

This is a great point. Some of the overly traditionalist fans at the other website act as if Notre Dame Football belongs to them since they witnessed a championship as students and therefore, all things should be done how they have always been done and according to their liking. I was actually lectured by an alum from that era who is also a poster over there about the complacency of the current students and fans and our lack of heart. I live and breathe ND football and as a recent alum, I felt greatly offended by his statements, as I have yelled myself hoarse, week in and week out.

Football is an evolving game, even more so in college than any other level because of recruiting. Updating the facilities, putting in training tables, and even the cosmetic changes help us to stay competitive in all aspects of college football. If we were to stick to all traditions just for the sake of tradition, other teams will, and have, passed us by (change for the sake of change is just as bad or worse). There are reasons for all these changes though because they increase our national exposure and gain interest with some recruits who may have not been interested before.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

i think swarbricks got it right, once a year have a "special" game, and as for a jumbotron, yes, do it like UM, no ads on the sides, just two nice screens replacing the scoreboards, in my opinion it would help pump up the crowd, especially by showing "oldies" videos and instant replays so we can really let the refs hear it! ultimately, i think ND is right in doing these things, also, when can i get my hands on some of these Golden Shamrock gloves?!

Are the ads what the traditionalists are worried about? I thought it was more about the look/integrity of the stadium.

 

[DCirishfan]

Just win , win games. Stop losing to average teams. Don't obsess about some tradition, play ball. If you want to change something, try it and see if it works.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

This is a great point. Some of the overly traditionalist fans at the other website act as if Notre Dame Football belongs to them since they witnessed a championship as students and therefore, all things should be done how they have always been done and according to their liking. I was actually lectured by an alum from that era who is also a poster over there about the complacency of the current students and fans and our lack of heart. I live and breathe ND football and as a recent alum, I felt greatly offended by his statements, as I have yelled myself hoarse, week in and week out.

Football is an evolving game, even more so in college than any other level because of recruiting. Updating the facilities, putting in training tables, and even the cosmetic changes help us to stay competitive in all aspects of college football. If we were to stick to all traditions just for the sake of tradition, other teams will, and have, passed us by (change for the sake of change is just as bad or worse). There are reasons for all these changes though because they increase our national exposure and gain interest with some recruits who may have not been interested before.

Good thought. This helps me understand where some of their arrogance comes from.

 

[Woneone]

I'm not against new traditions, just so long as they don't step all over the ideals behind the old traditions. "Keeping up with the Jonses" is not an ideal that ND has traditionally stood for. I think you have to look at each new idea, individually. If it symbolizes something that flies in the face of the traditional ideals of the University, then I say it better deliver real, meaningful, significant results. I'm not against a training table, because the athletes are still integrated into the "regular" student population, in almost every other facet of campus life. I'm not against a uniform change, once a year, as long as it is tasteful. When you start getting into 3, 4, 5 uniform changes a year, it seems too much to me like "keeping up with the Jonses". I would be all for a jumbotron, if it enhances the experience of those attending games. I'm not against limited, subtle advertising in the stadium. But if they ever go to "CarFax Field at South Bend", I'd be apoplectic.

Beautifully put.

Are the ads what the traditionalists are worried about? I thought it was more about the look/integrity of the stadium.

The problem is THEY (traditionalists) don't know what they're worried about. There is no middle ground. In their eyes, it's good vs. evil. Tradition vs. Corporate Greed. They see no compromise, and they only point to scape goats.

To steal a line from Micheal Douglas, "Traditionalists have no intention of solving your problems. Traditionalists are interested in telling you two things, and two things only, and that's what you have to fear, and who'se to blame for it."

 

[kmoose]

but sponsored by Sprint? What's really the harm?

What's the advantage? The only reason I can think of, to sell naming rights, is to generate revenue. ND does NOT need more revenue for it's football program, and an argument could be made that the school itself doesn't need any more revenue.

 

[GreatGolson]

adds are a HUGE concern for older fans, they dont want to see Notre Dame become commercialized more than it already is. That is one tradition i will never let die, adds in the stadium are a nono, right now the only thing inside is an NBC logo on one scoreboard which i can tolerate. but if our video screens have corporate sponsers, im out. for a great example of a jumbotron done right. look at the new joyce center scoreboard, four large video screens above center court, zero advertisements. Lets put it this way, ND has the money to do it right, and with swarbrick
at the helm i think they will do it right at some point

 

[DCirishfan]

Eh, they will have to live with it times change.

 

[TDHeysus]

I'm not against new traditions, just so long as they don't step all over the ideals behind the old traditions. "Keeping up with the Jonses" is not an ideal that ND has traditionally stood for. I think you have to look at each new idea, individually. If it symbolizes something that flies in the face of the traditional ideals of the University, then I say it better deliver real, meaningful, significant results. I'm not against a training table, because the athletes are still integrated into the "regular" student population, in almost every other facet of campus life. I'm not against a uniform change, once a year, as long as it is tasteful. When you start getting into 3, 4, 5 uniform changes a year, it seems too much to me like "keeping up with the Jonses". I would be all for a jumbotron, if it enhances the experience of those attending games. I'm not against limited, subtle advertising in the stadium. But if they ever go to "CarFax Field at South Bend", I'd be apoplectic.

nice post, i feel along the same lines. Dont change just to change, or just to keep up with the joneses. If ND starts changing their unis because other teams are doing it, then by definition, ND is no longer a leader.

jumbotron - Yes
Installing FieldTurf - I cannot effectively communicate how much I am against taking the grass out of the stadium.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

What's the advantage? The only reason I can think of, to sell naming rights, is to generate revenue. ND does NOT need more revenue for it's football program, and an argument could be made that the school itself doesn't need any more revenue.

True. Maybe its to satisfy NBC. I am sure they like the revenue.

 

[jason_h537]

There is a difference between tradition and being set in your ways. Field Turf and no screen are not traditions. Some things should and will be changed.

The uniform is not tradition either but you don't mess with greatness. Have you seen Oregon's old uniforms? there is a reason they changed it.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

nice post, i feel along the same lines. Dont change just to change, or just to keep up with the joneses. If ND starts changing their unis because other teams are doing it, then by definition, ND is no longer a leader.

jumbotron - Yes
Installing FieldTurf - I cannot effectively communicate how much I am against taking the grass out of the stadium.

I like the new Video Board the Coliseum has.

Curious though, why are you so strongly for the grass?

 

[Rack Em]

I'm not against a uniform change, once a year, as long as it is tasteful. When you start getting into 3, 4, 5 uniform changes a year, it seems too much to me like "keeping up with the Jonses". .

I mentioned this earlier to a person who was ranting about the number of times we have "tweaked" the jerseys this year. We had 2 games that were arguably "games of the century" for the Irish. First night game ever at the Big House and the first night game in like 20 years at ND Stadium against USC. Even in down years for all three teams, those are some pretty big ****ing games. Next year and in years to come we won't see multiple variations of the jersey. Swarbrick, Kelly, and the Athletic Department saw these games as an opportunity to get the media talking and the fans excited.

The only reason people are getting as pissed off is that we're slightly underperforming this season. If we're at 8-1, there would be much less bitching about such a minor issue in the grand scheme of ND football.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

[/QUOTE]The only reason people are getting as pissed off is that we're slightly underperforming this season. If we're at 8-1, there would be much less bitching about such a minor issue in the grand scheme of ND football.[/QUOTE]

True. People just bi+ch to bi+ch. Sort of like what happened after the Wake game. I was excited we got a road win and when I came on here it felt like we had lost by 20.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

The only reason people are getting as pissed off is that we're slightly underperforming this season. If we're at 8-1, there would be much less bitching about such a minor issue in the grand scheme of ND football.

True. People just bi+ch to bi+ch. Sort of like what happened after the Wake game. I was excited we got a road win and when I came on here it felt like we had lost by 20

 

[kmoose]

I mentioned this earlier to a person who was ranting about the number of times we have "tweaked" the jerseys this year. We had 2 games that were arguably "games of the century" for the Irish. First night game ever at the Big House and the first night game in like 20 years at ND Stadium against USC. Even in down years for all three teams, those are some pretty big ****ing games. Next year and in years to come we won't see multiple variations of the jersey. Swarbrick, Kelly, and the Athletic Department saw these games as an opportunity to get the media talking and the fans excited.

The only reason people are getting as pissed off is that we're slightly underperforming this season. If we're at 8-1, there would be much less bitching about such a minor issue in the grand scheme of ND football.

I'm not pissed off about it. But I can guarantee you that I would be talking about not abandoning ideals, even if we were on a 50 game winning streak.

 

[Rack Em]

I'm not pissed off about it. But I can guarantee you that I would be talking about not abandoning ideals, even if we were on a 50 game winning streak.

I wasn't trying to group you in that generalization. I respect your opinion since it was well stated. But personally, I think changing the uniform in this manner for a game won't tear down the traditions within the football program.

 

[jason_h537]

I don't have any problem with wearing an alternate uni 1-2 times a year. It's funny how people say kids want to go to schools with fancy new uni's but ignore Bama, USC, Texas, Oklahoma, OSU, and LSU who have all won championships recently wearing the same classic outfits.

ND is not permanently switching to the shamrock helmet, it's just something fun for a neutral site game.

 

[Rack Em]

It's funny how people say kids want to go to schools with fancy new uni's but ignore Bama, USC, Texas, Oklahoma, OSU, and LSU who have all won championships recently wearing the same classic outfits.

Exactly. If we won as consistently as those teams, we could play naked and recruits would jump all over that ****.

 

[jason_h537]

Exactly. If we won as consistently as those teams, we could play naked and recruits would jump all over that ****.

We do not want a PSU situation at ND. I would advise keeping clothes on.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

I don't have any problem with wearing an alternate uni 1-2 times a year. It's funny how people say kids want to go to schools with fancy new uni's but ignore Bama, USC, Texas, Oklahoma, OSU, and LSU who have all won championships recently wearing the same classic outfits.

ND is not permanently switching to the shamrock helmet, it's just something fun for a neutral site game.

I somewhat agree. Although while those schools haven't changed their standard uni's much they all have worn a Nike Pro-Combat uniforms in recent year, and yes kids get excited about it.

Part of the problem I have with it is we're a bit late to the party. I would rather see us be trend setters than followers, but overall its a good thing.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

The shamrock is actually throwback, to a certain extent. I don't understand why the gold helmet and dark jersey is "traditional." We've lots of different looks.

 

[jason_h537]

I somewhat agree. Although while those schools haven't changed their standard uni's much they all have worn a Nike Pro-Combat uniforms in recent year, and yes kids get excited about it.

Part of the problem I have with it is we're a bit late to the party. I would rather see us be trend setters than followers, but overall its a good thing.

Ok but Bama's pro combat the same uni with houndstooth numbers instead of white. What are we late to? this is what I don't get? I don't see Yankees fans complaining about the unifroms, Dodgers, Red Sox, Bama, Michigan, Steelers, Packers?

Notre Dame has a timeless uniform, they will never chaneg becuase they are forever great. They wore throwbacks in 02. All this is, is an alternate uni, i don't get the issue.