Old Notre Dame Will Graduate Over All

[PJWhitfield]

OK, I'm an old man of a Notre Dame fan (my earliest memory is cheering for Terry Brennan's teams) and this is a quaint, outdated notion, but I wish Notre Dame would pressure and embarrass the NCAA by taking schools that don't meet a certain minimum graduation success rate off its schedule. Yeah, I know there are problems with eliminating the dumb aces, but take a look at the Irish schedule this year. (Notre Dame's graduation success rate is 96, according to the NCAA site.)

South Florida, 46
Michigan, 69
Michigan State, 55
Pittsburgh, 69
Purdue, 60
Air Force, 86
USC, 61
Navy, 92
Wake Forest, 81
Maryland, 64
Boston College, 90
Stanford, 86

We win over all easily. The next time somebody tells you Notre Dame is no longer relevant to college football, tell them that Notre Dame is one of the few schools that still has a COLLEGE football program. I don't know what the other schools are doing but, with few exceptions, it most certainly has little to do with college.

 

[GreatGolson]

ok... so we should go play the Ivy's?

 

[phillyirish]

ok... so we should go play the Ivy's?

Nah, we will just start a new rivalry with Duke.

By the way, clever title for the thread. I like that.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

bhardin1 via Twitter:

#NotreDame ranks No. 1 in NCAA Graduation Success Rate results released today in No. of teams w/perfect scores. ND football No. 1 again.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

I'm really kinda surprised at Purdue and Stanfords numbers on this list...

 

[Aerosmith777]

I'm in grad school and taking a course on Higher Education Administration, and the Dean of Students at my college is the professor. We were talking about these kinds of numbers the other day, and he was saying how you have to look at the graduation rate of the school as well, because the numbers for the athletics team might not be as far off as some would think.

For example, he said one year the Sooners had a graduation rate of 17%. But the graduation rate of the entire University of Oklahoma was 16%. The president of the school at the time actually commented that, "We need to build a university that our football team can be proud of."

Plus, another thing he was telling me is that the graduation success rate stat used by the NCAA actually takes kids leaving early to go pro into account (destroying an argument frequently used by the haters-that their schools' rates are so low b/c they have all these kids going pro, and ND doesn't). Pretty crazy.

 

[TerryTate]

OK, I'm an old man of a Notre Dame fan (my earliest memory is cheering for Terry Brennan's teams) and this is a quaint, outdated notion, but I wish Notre Dame would pressure and embarrass the NCAA by taking schools that don't meet a certain minimum graduation success rate off its schedule. Yeah, I know there are problems with eliminating the dumb aces, but take a look at the Irish schedule this year. (Notre Dame's graduation success rate is 96, according to the NCAA site.)

South Florida, 46
Michigan, 69
Michigan State, 55
Pittsburgh, 69
Purdue, 60
Air Force, 86
USC, 61
Navy, 92
Wake Forest, 81
Maryland, 64
Boston College, 90
Stanford, 86

We win over all easily. The next time somebody tells you Notre Dame is no longer relevant to college football, tell them that Notre Dame is one of the few schools that still has a COLLEGE football program. I don't know what the other schools are doing but, with few exceptions, it most certainly has little to do with college.

This is Pitch #1 to Mom and Dad.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

OK, I'm an old man of a Notre Dame fan (my earliest memory is cheering for Terry Brennan's teams) and this is a quaint, outdated notion, but I wish Notre Dame would pressure and embarrass the NCAA by taking schools that don't meet a certain minimum graduation success rate off its schedule. Yeah, I know there are problems with eliminating the dumb aces, but take a look at the Irish schedule this year. (Notre Dame's graduation success rate is 96, according to the NCAA site.)

South Florida, 46
Michigan, 69
Michigan State, 55
Pittsburgh, 69
Purdue, 60
Air Force, 86
USC, 61
Navy, 92
Wake Forest, 81
Maryland, 64
Boston College, 90
Stanford, 86

We win over all easily. The next time somebody tells you Notre Dame is no longer relevant to college football, tell them that Notre Dame is one of the few schools that still has a COLLEGE football program. I don't know what the other schools are doing but, with few exceptions, it most certainly has little to do with college.

You're assuming the NCAA cares. I don't think that's the case. They would just laugh and say ok best of luck ND.

The other schools are trying to win football games. Education comes second... wait why am I typing this isn't this common knowledge?

 

[irishtrain]

ok... so we should go play the Ivy's?

Its really the point when you shuck it down. I had this conversation over the weekend with a guy who agreed with me. The schools that are big today are the ones who have football players on campus to win games period. You can not have it both ways and until Notre Dame understands this what you see is what you are going to get. I have said for 5-7 years that if Notre Dame wants it the way it is join the Ivy League or the MAC. Even some schools who are held in high esteem on this matter have compromised. It is no way a reflection on the student body and the education they are attaining but if you want to compete with the SEC/powers of today you cannot do it with the players they are getting. It just cannot be done. I have said all along that having 85 guys on campus to win football games should not be looked at as selling out or lowering your standards. Why even have a football team if what you saw last Saturday is your product. Either elevate your players or lower your competition. Notre Dame has not been a competitive program for 15 years except for a few seasons when they were able to piece it together because of schedule/a few great players who had super seasons/or a coach that caught lightning in a bottle for a brief time. You cannot sustain on the field excellance the way they are trying to do it. The latest coach they have is as good as your going to get-at Notre Dame-he's a winner and even he cant pull this off. As it was said in the comment earlier-OK Notre Dame see if you can pull it off-Good Luck.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Not that this makes any difference to anyone, but my understanding of the graduation rate statistics is that you are NOT downgraded/penalized when a player leaves early ASSUMING THAT PLAYER IS ACADEMICALLY ELIGIBLE at the time of leaving. So the stat about graduation rate is credible as regards actual athletes progressing normally towards graduation. There is no reason to attempt to diminish NDs accomplishment in this area.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

Not that this makes any difference to anyone, but my understanding of the graduation rate statistics is that you are NOT downgraded/penalized when a player leaves early ASSUMING THAT PLAYER IS ACADEMICALLY ELIGIBLE at the time of leaving. So the stat about graduation rate is credible as regards actual athletes progressing normally towards graduation. There is no reason to attempt to diminish NDs accomplishment in this area.

AGREED!!!

Give this man a hrumphhh!!!

 

[phgreek]

For example, he said one year the Sooners had a graduation rate of 17%. But the graduation rate of the entire University of Oklahoma was 16%. The president of the school at the time actually commented that, "We need to build a university that our football team can be proud of."

...I get what he's saying....but the notion of Extracurricular activities has always presumed the NORMAL curriculum first. One of the KEY indicators of the succes of an institution is (assuming a reasonable curriculum) grad rate. We all understand that can be tricky becuase some instituions are stepping stones, etc. but I believe there are ways to give credit to schools who lose a kid somewhere who was in good academic standing when he left. It is Absurd that the NCAA can exist w/o requiring reporting and performance related to some sort of adjusted grad rate. In short what in the hell are you doing with ANY sports until you can put 85% of your kids through consistently. Until that happens all hands on deck (ie all resources) for the academic side.

I'm of the opinion they should be measuring employment after graduation as well...all these things should go toward how many scholarships you get each year. If you can run 85% of your kids through, and be above the national average in placement for the previous 3 years, you should get the full complement of Scholies...if you do less than 85% and/or fall below the national average in placement, you lose some scholies...if you fall below 50% grad rate, and 25% below the national average in placement...the program gets suspended. CFB would clean up w/in 5 years such that some of us old-timers might recognize it...

 

[RDU Irish]

Dead on TT. This wins recruiting battles for us all the time.

Probably more clout rewarding high graduation schools like Wake Forest by adding a series here and there versus refusing to play low rated schools. Good way to add some cupcakes too.

I'm surprised BC is so high. I almost feel compelled to respect them.................... nope can't do it.

 

[Aerosmith777]

...I get what he's saying....but the notion of Extracurricular activities has always presumed the NORMAL curriculum first. One of the KEY indicators of the succes of an institution is (assuming a reasonable curriculum) grad rate. We all understand that can be tricky becuase some instituions are stepping stones, etc. but I believe there are ways to give credit to schools who lose a kid somewhere who was in good academic standing when he left. It is Absurd that the NCAA can exist w/o requiring reporting and performance related to some sort of adjusted grad rate. In short what in the hell are you doing with ANY sports until you can put 85% of your kids through consistently. Until that happens all hands on deck (ie all resources) for the academic side.

I'm of the opinion they should be measuring employment after graduation as well...all these things should go toward how many scholarships you get each year. If you can run 85% of your kids through, and be above the national average in placement for the previous 3 years, you should get the full complement of Scholies...if you do less than 85% and/or fall below the national average in placement, you lose some scholies...if you fall below 50% grad rate, and 25% below the national average in placement...the program gets suspended. CFB would clean up w/in 5 years such that some of us old-timers might recognize it...

Yeah, I think that was kind of his point. That sometimes we see these numbers and assume the school is just bringing in mercenaries to win them football games, who aren't really representative of the student body in their academic pursuits. But sometimes, the school's regular student body itself might really be so screwed up that they are.

His main point I think was, in those cases, its really not the fault of the atheletics programs. As in the case w/ OU, they were actually graduating at a slightly higher rate than that general student body, sad as that is.

 

[Aerosmith777]

I'm surprised BC is so high. I almost feel compelled to respect them.................... nope can't do it.

Oh, that doesn't surprise me. As much as I loathe BC, they're a great school and have a reputation of making their athletes perform academically, similar to ND.

If there's one that surprises me for being too high, it's probably Pitt. Looking around the landscape of college football, 69%'s really not that bad. I dunno why, but Pitt just doesn't strike me as the kind of school that makes their football players go to class. Would've thought they'd be close to MSU, at 55%. Instead, they're actually higher than USC, which I would've expected more from than their 61%.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The 30y ROI numbers I'm constantly bringing up are discounted by the graduation rate for undergrads. The university ought to recalculate the rankings with the graduation rates for football players specifically (with a separate ranking for black football players).

We'd be #1 in the nation easily, and with the exception of Stanford, we'd be miles ahead of our closest competitors.

 

[Aerosmith777]

The 30y ROI numbers I'm constantly bringing up are discounted by the graduation rate for undergrads. The university ought to recalculate the rankings with the graduation rates for football players specifically (with a separate ranking for black football players).

We'd be #1 in the nation easily, and with the exception of Stanford, we'd be miles ahead of our closest competitors.

I think I've seen those stats recalculated for african american players (albeit not recently), and the difference between the graduation rates for the white players was not pretty for some teams, not surprisingly.

Also not surprisingly, ND's numbers were almost identical.

 

[WaveDomer]

In terms of public institutions, I think the number of the general student population graduating might be affected by factors that schools like ND don't have. For example, up here in Boise, I know a number of people who go to Boise State on a part-time basis, or even a full-time basis, and they are working at the same time. Much of the time they don't continue going for whatever reason. Now, with a place like Boise State, the tuition is so low and the entrance requirements are a joke, so people will decide on a whim to go and if they then decide to stop it's no big deal. It's really a community college type atmosphere for many. On the flip side, if you go to ND or Tulane and you pay good money to go there, dropping out isn't as simple a choice.

I don't know if this thought process is valid at all, and has really nothing to do with football graduation rates, but I think it might be why a school like Oklahoma graduates a low rate in general.

 

[Anchorman]

In terms of public institutions, I think the number of the general student population graduating might be affected by factors that schools like ND don't have. For example, up here in Boise, I know a number of people who go to Boise State on a part-time basis, or even a full-time basis, and they are working at the same time. Much of the time they don't continue going for whatever reason. Now, with a place like Boise State, the tuition is so low and the entrance requirements are a joke, so people will decide on a whim to go and if they then decide to stop it's no big deal. It's really a community college type atmosphere for many. On the flip side, if you go to ND or Tulane and you pay good money to go there, dropping out isn't as simple a choice.

I don't know if this thought process is valid at all, and has really nothing to do with football graduation rates, but I think it might be why a school like Oklahoma graduates a low rate in general.

This. It is important to note that the graduation rates of many public schools are below those of their football teams.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Correct...it's why the comparison between athletes and regulars doesn't excuse the U's though. If you're are handing out a student/athlete scholarship you are supposed to be taking extra responsibility in your athletic department.

If one insisted on really exposing some so-called academic institutions for the wasted acreage that they are, one would compare the grad rates of regular students across state institutions and discipline to discipline. All that would still be recruitment fodder and paint an even worse picture for some animal farms than already has been.

Whiskey's ROI is a fine stat in the whole picture regardless.