It's not you, it's me - Notre Dame Football Edition.

dre1919

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Great post Dre and fantastic discussion!

Here's the situation as I see it.

When I was at ND from '91 - '96, things were a lot different. The Hammes was a single-story bookstore on the first floor of Baden Hall. Now it's a massive two-story building. The stadium expanded from 59,075 to 80K+. The football players lived in dorms all four years instead of moving off campus, and they used to lift weights at loftus and the JACC instead of having their own dedicated building.

The last time I went to campus was the 2006 Army game and how things had changed. The feeling I kept getting was how commercialized and sanitized ND had become. From the 'new' bookstore, to the ridiculous eating tent near the main entrance, to the controlled and disneyfied game day atmosphere. Gone were senior bar (replaced by some fairly ridiculous eating establishment, I understand), the illegal t-shirt sellers on the stadium grounds, and general rowdiness. Gone was the edge, the grit, and the energy I remember; the us-against-the-world mentality.

By focusing on making the games and student life in general 'a safe and enjoyable experience for all' (e.g., the draconian rule of Residence Life, elimination of SYRs), and through it's emphasis on making money above all else, ND has gone soft.

Throughout our history, ND has always cherished its role as the underdog and its us-against-the-world ethos. In fact, the moniker 'Fighting Irish' started out as a racial epithet. That sense of being persecuted, trivialized, and patronized in society bred a certain toughness and a determination to win that permeated the culture of the university. And our football team was an extention of that mentality where power running, grit, and grinding down those who would oppose you was the perfect expression of what Notre Dame itself was about.

It may sound simple, but I truly believe that as the university has gone soft, so has the football program.

This is an outstanding post as well! I agree totally...we used to have an edge that was what garnered our nickname back in the day. It was one of the reasons we became who we became because in the Rockne days (just to name an example) we were famous for traveling anywhere to play anyone. In a day and age when most teams would only play inside their region and conference, Notre Dame was a traveling band of warriors. That "Us Against The World" mentality and structure bred a mental and physical toughness throughout the team. In those times, much like now, we didn't always have the biggest and the best (although we had great players on many occasions), but our fight and grit was what set us apart. I mean, we are the institution that ended Bud Wilkinson's 47 game win streak at OU!
 

NDOM

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Well said, get Kelly the players he needs and the pieces will start to fall into place. I've been preaching that since the beginning. Recruiting in College Football is essential. BK wouldn't have recruited any of the players currently on his roster save for maybe a handful of guys. As far as dumbing down the schedule, I agree to some extent, however I like what I see on the upcoming schedules for 2011-12.

So you like seeing automatic 5-6 losses in 2011 and automatic 6-7 losses MAYBE more in 2012? I'm not buying it. The schedule only gets tougher from here. So if you want to see a tougher schedule just hold on to your hat because its about to get crazy, and get used to that fact that ND will for at least the next 2 years be a 5 or 6 win team. Oh and its possible too that in 2012 ND could only win 4 games. LOL at a tougher schedule. FOOLISH!
 
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irishff1014

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It would be nice for them to lower the standards just a bit not a whole lot though you would be surprised what a little bit could do for us.
 

enrico514

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Yeah... It's harder to win at ND for a number of reasons... That's why it's going to be special when we do win again. ND (or anyone else) should not lower themselves to the lowest denominator in order to win. It's been a long time since we've been really good because it's been a long time since we've had a real Head Coach. We finally have one... He's been a winner everywhere he's been!!! Coach Kelly just needs a little time... He needs to stabilize the patient before he gets him up and running...

I do however agree with:
- adjusting the schedule a bit... 2011 and 2012 are brutal. Brutal for an established program...
- easing up entrance requirements for couple kids AS LONG AS they are ready to work for their degree once in.
- changing the NBC clowns to guys that actually care about the school and what it stands for.
 
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jmurphy75

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These are the threads that keep me coming back to this site, great responses and views....I was getting tired of reading all of the threads that started off with good intentions and ended up nothing but bickering. Great posts from everyone!
 

Freeman Ara

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I don't think lowering admissions standards would actually help much. Kids are still going to have to WANT to get an education and actually do the work in the classroom. You could lower the standard to the bare minimum and ND would still lose out on guys because they would have to actually take real classes and put the time and effort in to make grades, lowering standards won't change a kids work ethic or intelligence. And it's not like we are asking all the recruits to make a 3.5 gpa and a 1400 on the SAT, you just have to show that you are capable of doing the work in the classroom. Look at Davarius Daniels, he had some academic issues early on in HS but decided ND was really where he wanted to be and put in the time and effort to get grades to be here, those are the kids we need.
If Stanford can recruit enough good players to be in the top 25 with the right coach, so can we.

Now as far as dumbing down the schedule, it would hurt us not help us.

Western Michigan
Toledo
Indiana
Purdue
Wake Forest
Army
Navy
BYU
Pittsburgh
South Florida
Boston College/Rutgers
USC

That is not a national championship schedule. We could run the table every year and we would be on the outside looking in. With it being almost a birthright of the SEC champ to make the National Title game every year, your realistically looking at the Big 10, PAC-12, Big 12, ACC, Big East Champions plus ND battling for 1 spot. Dumbing down the schedule might get us 12 wins every year but put up against a team in a conference with a Championship game we are rarely every going to do well enough in the polls with a schedule like that to jump over conference winners. A tough schedule like 2012 all but guarantees us a national championship spot if we win 11 or 12 games. And if we don't win 11 or 12 then we don't deserve to be there anyway.

Right now I think everyone in ND nation is hurting and is sick and tired of what the program has become. But there is no quick fix to ND football, but if we have the right coach (and I have no idea if we do) then this program can be successful again. Do I think we will ever be a dominate team on a yearly basis? No I don't. But I believe that this program can compete for a National Title once every five years and play for BCS games two or three times in that span.
 

LongRun

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If Notre Dame was smart they would be on the forefront of creating a degree special for Football players. It would start slower in the first year and than ramp up in 2 3 4. They would also have to pass with a certain requirements but if they graduated and played football they would be acknowledged for the program that they went through. Lets face it how many times do you think a pro NFL athlete is asked what his degree is . I agree 100 percent with this post its everything I have been feeling for years now about Notre Dame and they have to do something. Coaches have said over and over if you cant recruit and bring in the play makers you can forget about a NC. Nd has proven that and we need to do something fast. Sure Brian K won in the Big East but his schedule is no where near the power the big leagues hold. This was proven with the cinci Florida game last year. The only team that truly disproves my feelings is Oregon. They dont have the talent year after year like that of Texas or Alabama, yet they are on track for the NC this year. I dont know what the answer is but ND needs to react fast because as a fan, its getting old watching them get beat by Navy and Tulsa every year.
 

theclassickiller

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Call me crazy, but this is not a Notre Dame problem. Notre Dame has the same standards they have always had and should always keep.

People, this is an NCAA problem. They are the most corrupt corporation in America. It's about money and they will not only bend the rules to make more of it, they will straight up disregard them.

If you thought "Thug U" Miami was a bad school during the Catholics vs. Convicts era you have no idea. Look at USC, look at Alabama, look at Michigan and Florida. You are talking about schools that make Miami in the 80's look like MIT.

30 arrests on one man's clock? Urban Meyer would have gone down as the most crooked coach in the history of the NCAA as little as 15 years ago. He has ruined kid's careers and lied to people to get his way. His dishonesty and lack of any type of integrity or conscience are so unbelievable it makes my stomach turn to think that there are people like that in positions to play with kids' futures. And what has the NCAA done about it? How long did it take the NCAA to do anything about the USC players that they knew had taken money?

And yet just over 20 years ago SMU was given the death penalty when it was discovered that some of the players were receiving as little as 50 DOLLARS A MONTH. 21 players combined to receive $61,000. Does anyone recall how much Reggie Bush received? $280,000. One man. Or approximately four and a half times what the entire SMU team received. And yet USC received a quarter of the penalty SMU had dropped on them.

It's a sad, sad time when an increase in arrests truly does predict success in the future for collegiate teams. Colin Cowherd said it last year and I refused to believe it. But I can't overlook it anymore. Example: who was the great story this year that came out of nowhere to win 7 straight games? Michigan State. Traditionally a clean (although classless and and has had it's share of 'roid problems) program that has essentially followed the path Notre Dame has into mediocrity. Until this year. The year after all of the arrests and jail time amongst its players. Coincidence? And the sick part is that Chris Rucker is released from jail and plays the next week. Is that what you have to do to win?

Why does the NCAA allow schools to do internal investigations and decide their own penalties? Cost? Time? Why even have schools report minor infractions? Does anything really ever happen?

Is this a Notre Dame problem? Are the classes too hard for student-athletes? Are admission standards too high? Do we ask the impossible out of our coaches?

In a nutshell, aren't we really just asking them to find decent human beings with athletic ability and coach them to win?

If that is really impossible to do, then it seems to me a problem exists in the system, not in the school. This is not the NCAA of old, and it will only get worse from here.

And the saddest part of all is that football might be the least perverted of the NCAA sports.
 

LongRun

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I don't think lowering admissions standards would actually help much. Kids are still going to have to WANT to get an education and actually do the work in the classroom. You could lower the standard to the bare minimum and ND would still lose out on guys because they would have to actually take real classes and put the time and effort in to make grades, lowering standards won't change a kids work ethic or intelligence. And it's not like we are asking all the recruits to make a 3.5 gpa and a 1400 on the SAT, you just have to show that you are capable of doing the work in the classroom. Look at Davarius Daniels, he had some academic issues early on in HS but decided ND was really where he wanted to be and put in the time and effort to get grades to be here, those are the kids we need.
If Stanford can recruit enough good players to be in the top 25 with the right coach, so can we.

Now as far as dumbing down the schedule, it would hurt us not help us.

Western Michigan
Toledo
Indiana
Purdue
Wake Forest
Army
Navy
BYU
Pittsburgh
South Florida
Boston College/Rutgers
USC

That is not a national championship schedule. We could run the table every year and we would be on the outside looking in. With it being almost a birthright of the SEC champ to make the National Title game every year, your realistically looking at the Big 10, PAC-12, Big 12, ACC, Big East Champions plus ND battling for 1 spot. Dumbing down the schedule might get us 12 wins every year but put up against a team in a conference with a Championship game we are rarely every going to do well enough in the polls with a schedule like that to jump over conference winners. A tough schedule like 2012 all but guarantees us a national championship spot if we win 11 or 12 games. And if we don't win 11 or 12 then we don't deserve to be there anyway.

Right now I think everyone in ND nation is hurting and is sick and tired of what the program has become. But there is no quick fix to ND football, but if we have the right coach (and I have no idea if we do) then this program can be successful again. Do I think we will ever be a dominate team on a yearly basis? No I don't. But I believe that this program can compete for a National Title once every five years and play for BCS games two or three times in that span.

We have tried 22 years your way with getting the right coach. As stated in the Article if you bring Saban to Notre Dame he wont win. We dont have the play makers to make the difference. Hell we dont even have the players now even with a winning coach to win against Navy or Tulsa. Brain K will get us winning 7 or 8 games a year but I dont think he will ever get us to a NC without recruiting the 5 star players.
 

LongRun

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Call me crazy, but this is not a Notre Dame problem. Notre Dame has the same standards they have always had and should always keep.

People, this is an NCAA problem. They are the most corrupt corporation in America. It's about money and they will not only bend the rules to make more of it, they will straight up disregard them.

If you thought "Thug U" Miami was a bad school during the Catholics vs. Convicts era you have no idea. Look at USC, look at Alabama, look at Michigan and Florida. You are talking about schools that make Miami in the 80's look like MIT.

30 arrests on one man's clock? Urban Meyer would have gone down as the most crooked coach in the history of the NCAA as little as 15 years ago. He has ruined kid's careers and lied to people to get his way. His dishonesty and lack of any type of integrity or conscience are so unbelievable it makes my stomach turn to think that there are people like that in positions to play with kids' futures. And what has the NCAA done about it? How long did it take the NCAA to do anything about the USC players that they knew had taken money?

And yet just over 20 years ago SMU was given the death penalty when it was discovered that some of the players were receiving as little as 50 DOLLARS A MONTH. 21 players combined to receive $61,000. Does anyone recall how much Reggie Bush received? $280,000. One man. Or approximately four and a half times what the entire SMU team received. And yet USC received a quarter of the penalty SMU had dropped on them.

It's a sad, sad time when an increase in arrests truly does predict success in the future for collegiate teams. Colin Cowherd said it last year and I refused to believe it. But I can't overlook it anymore. Example: who was the great story this year that came out of nowhere to win 7 straight games? Michigan State. Traditionally a clean (although classless and and has had it's share of 'roid problems) program that has essentially followed the path Notre Dame has into mediocrity. Until this year. The year after all of the arrests and jail time amongst its players. Coincidence? And the sick part is that Chris Rucker is released from jail and plays the next week. Is that what you have to do to win?

Why does the NCAA allow schools to do internal investigations and decide their own penalties? Cost? Time? Why even have schools report minor infractions? Does anything really ever happen?

Is this a Notre Dame problem? Are the classes too hard for student-athletes? Are admission standards too high? Do we ask the impossible out of our coaches?

In a nutshell, aren't we really just asking them to find decent human beings with athletic ability and coach them to win?

If that is really impossible to do, then it seems to me a problem exists in the system, not in the school. This is not the NCAA of old, and it will only get worse from here.

And the saddest part of all is that football might be the least perverted of the NCAA sports.

Good Points but again do you see anything changing with the amount of money that is going around in football. NO WAY ! The solutions is to find a happy medium where the players can get some type of education and still play football for the fighting Irish. The players that want a full degree can do so the ones that want to take it slow in a AA degree or some sort of football degree so be it. I dont think it makes the school look bad, I think it shows that ND is on the forefront of educating these players who otherwise would never get anything out of college. This isn't about lowering standards this is about changing with the times and creating a program that works for these players !
 
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Irish4Life09

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Much like the Nike ad now trying to rehabilitate LeBron's image, I think we as Irish fans might want to look at the football program in the same light and consider the answer...

"What should I do? Should I admit I've made mistakes? Should I remind you I've done this before? Should I give you a history lesson? What should I do? Should I tell you how much fun we had? Should I really believe I ruined my legacy? Should I be who you want me to be? Should I accept my role as a villain? Maybe I should just disappear. Should I just clear the decks and start over? What should I do? Should I be who you want me to be?"

For a relatively small, religious based university in the middle of America's heartland we've accomplished a lot. National championships, Heisman trophies, All-Americans, history. But that was then...and then was a long time ago. Even the last time we raised the trophy as champions was twenty two seasons ago. Twenty two. In the old days, other schools only recruited relatively locally...no one was on TV the way the Irish were...there was no "internet". No YouTube, no Sportscenter, no highlight package on one of fifteen sports channels. Back then, we possessed and brandished recruiting tools other schools could only dream of having. Now, everyone has them. The playing field was not only leveled, the field changed colors (literally in the case of some) and became a different sport altogether (figuratively). As the NFL, and it's contract money, grew and grew the need for a "good education" went by the wayside. Schools steadily grew into football factories, ensuring recruits an unobstructed path to NFL riches in trade for money made for the school by winning college games (and bowls).

As these "rules" by which the game is played have changed, largely, Notre Dame has not. we have stuck to being an independent when others joined conferences for shared revenue. We have managed to maintain our own television network deal, bought mostly on our past and the fact that even casual fans seem to love something about the Irish. We have maintained a difficult schedule, only recently relenting a little, and most importantly...we have stressed classwork over a springboard to the NFL and instant money. But what has that gotten us? If you look at the recruits that have come through the doors, the coaches, the on field results...not much. Sure, we cobble together a decent season now and then but we are always one step away from mediocrity. We are always being questioned whether we are for real, overrated, or simply irrelevant in a modern college football "NFL farm system".

The truth we all ignore is today's blue chip recruits don't want to have to deal with extraordinarily hard classes when they can go to a school that allows "Ball Room Dancing" as a class option to keep playing. They can go to a school where a "C" average (or worse, a "D") keeps you technically eligible, and technically is enough. Blue chip, difference makers on the field choose to go play where the success is, and has been, the past decade...their formative years watching football. Sure, it was cool to play for the lore and mystique of Notre Dame in 1930, 1940, 1950, etc. 2010? Not so much. Why not play for Texas, OU, Ohio State or even Oregon? Why freeze during the winters when a warm beach awaits you at USC or Miami? Because some guy named Knute Rockne used to have some good teams at this little school once? Because this team with plain helmets is on TV every Saturday? So what? The Big Ten (and soon the Pac-10) will have their own networks, and ESPN and ABC always have the big boys playing in sparkling HD as well.

So all of this leads back to the Nike ad. Who do we want the Irish football program to be? Champions? Perennial contenders? A football factory? An academics first institution? Good citizens, off the police blotter, with morals and religion coming first? Increasingly, it seems highly unlikely and close to impossible to envision Notre Dame being all of these things. Yet, we as fans seem to want this every season. We expect the past to come alive and wake up the echoes, when in reality, those echoes are saying "Decide who you want to be, because in today's times, you cannot have it all." Tough pill to swallow, but it's the truth. And coaches know it too. It's why the coaching elite avoid Notre Dame like it's a haunted house. They know that the rules under which they must operate cannot yield the unrealistic expectations the fanbase and alumni demand. They know that without blue chip, difference making talent they cannot compete with the football factories and that is what would be asked of them. These are smart men, aware of their salary as well as their legacies and they want no part of a house haunted by the memories of past glory. Those echoes whisper to a time long ago when college football was a mere dwarf of the juggernaut it currently is. When the need for a prestigious degree and national merit was important, and there wasn't millions of dollars waiting on a simple signature to a piece of paper.

So who do we want Notre Dame to be? If the Irish decided to stick to their guns as an academic, even taking it more seriously, and joined the Ivy League I would still root for them as my favorite team. I feel a deep connection to the institution as a person of Irish heritage. But, that's me. I would accept they decided playing with the big boys was not really in the cards and that things like education and morality were more important than BCS millions. On the other hand, I LOVE football...and I really love championship, dominant football. It would be incredible to watch the Irish as a perennial contender and staple of the BCS bowls like Florida, OU, Texas and Ohio State are. That would be great! I would also understand that to have done that, it meant that we had to change our identity and make a choice. We had to choose where to win our battles...in the classroom, in the police station, or on the field. But once we were there, it meant we did choose...we didn't sit like we have for decades...in mediocrity and wondering if we were relevant anymore.

It is these reasons that it will not matter who coaches us...what mistakes they make or who they do or do not recruit. It is these reasons that keep us happy and basking in the thrill of victory one Saturday, then scratching out heads or yelling at the TV the next. We are ready to run the newest coach out of town at the first hint of trouble when the reality is, as we have the rules currently laid, no one is coming in here and doing what we really expect. Saban, Tressel, Meyer, Stoops...how could any of these considerable coaches do more than what Kelly is doing with what Kelly has to work with and under? We have financial means and past glory...that's about it. What good is that going to do us in the modern world of "right now", "do it the easy way", " a few crimes are misunderstandings and we can sweep them under the rug" or "classes shouldn't be hard for future millionaires".

Who should Notre Dame be?

Just have to give you some props.
Amazing writing.If I were you I'd honestly check about either publishing that,or doing some sort of sports writing....very insightful, and well written.

As for my opinion...I believe Kelly can, and will get the job done. The kids we have right now absolutely don't fit into his strategy save for half the players on offense.Kelly will win games soon.Once that happens, kids will realize the kind of coach he is, and we will start getting the blue-chip athletes again.And with that will come the dominance and hopefully championships.
I completely disagree with anyone saying our standards are too high.This is COLLEGE football....if kids need money so desperately go play in Canada or in Europe until you can make it into the NFL draft. If you're going to go to college, at least try to get an education so you have a backup plan.This is NOTRE DAME. What a lot of people don't realize, is that we aren't getting the huge players all the time not because of our academics...We're not getting them because we havn't really done anything substantial since 93. Oh wow...we got a Hawaii Bowl against a terrible team..thats a hell of a selling point to a recruit.
All that matters to these kids is winning. Case in point, a recent recruit we just lost.(I won't go into that anymore because I get too heated for my own good, and I apologize to anyone I offended with my earlier comments.It was not my intention.)
If you look at recruits that are interested in us, you will see a lot of high profile guys.So it's not the fact they might think they can't make it academically. It's because we lose to teams like Navy and Tulsa.
Even if we don't get high profile kids.Look at the schools like TCU,Boise and Oregon over the past few years like was pointed out earlier.They don't have a huge fanbase,tv coverage,or tradition like we do...hell they don't have the "athletes" liked we think we have.They have great coaches that can turn an underrated team into a great product....just like Brian Kelly has done at every level of his career so far.
Now,at the current moment I'm incredibly pissed at Kelly.I cannot even imagine what he was thinking with the interception play to end the game on Saturday against Tulsa.(I watched his post game interview, and understand and like an aggressive coach, but that was not the time to be aggressive.Run the ball up the gut and let the best kicker in college football win the game on a short field goal.) But I do love Kelly's aggressiveness.We havn't had a coach like this in more than 2 decades....we're very close to be able to watch some exciting football over the next few years.(Case in point, the hook and ladder play that was run to perfection.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is I really like the direction that I feel we're headed in. Yes we're 4-5,we're having a terrible year from all angles, from deaths to losses. But there is already so much improvement in every facet of our program that it is hard NOT to be excited.For anyone on the fence, I'm honestly asking you to give Kelly a chance.3/4 of a season should not determine how we feel about a coach, especially with everything that has happened this season.
 

Mr. McGibblets

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no one was on TV the way the Irish were...there was no "internet". No YouTube, no Sportscenter, no highlight package on one of fifteen sports channels. Back then, we possessed and brandished recruiting tools other schools could only dream of having. Now, everyone has them.

Who should Notre Dame be?

I caught the tail end of a convo Herd was having regarding ND football. He brought up the point that Notre Dame isnt "Cool" anymore. Its fan base consists of people who are 45-68 year old men who still think ND can be good. Back when "they" were growing up ND was cool because they were really great. Younger kids no longer think ND is cool because they havent seen ND sustain any sort of success. ND is cold, remotely located, with rigid academics, unattractive co-eds, and its religiously based--to name most of his adjectives. It will always be a different coach with the same results.

Actually I'm not really sure why I quoted that particular section of dre's post; I guess I thought it sort of fit. I want ND to be cool again and I want them to be mean- but mean in a respectful way. I want them to lay the wood and talk trash. I dont want them to play dirty, but I want them to play fast and knock people around- and let the opposing team know that its going to last all day. I want them to look intimidating. I think kids nowadays are attracted to swagger-And I actually think that word is annoying. Almost as annoying and completely over-used as the phrase/words "Old School."
 

dre1919

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In the wake of the Michigan loss, I was going to post another thread trying to persuade people to understand where Notre Dame is in the real world now. Instead, I decided to push this thread back to the front and encourage people to re-read the first post I made here. Then, come back and read this post.

As an Irish fan, I used to wonder early on why there was so much widespread hatred toward the Irish. Why was it people felt true joy and optimism at seeing their losses pile up, their futility where there once was perfection on the grid iron. Then, a long time ago, I figured it out: As with all mighty programs, jealousy creeps in from the outside as others want what the big boys have. But, that couldn't be the only reason, right? It couldn't just be simple jealousy that fueled people's burning desire to see the Irish constantly in the college football dumpster, could it? As I stated with the first post in this article...it's not really them, it's us. As fans, we care a lot about the Irish football team. A LOT. But, as fans, we're also completely unrealistic about expectations and irrational when we win or lose.

We win a bowl game for the first time in decades and somehow we're supposed to be in the Top 25? Granted, that's the media's fault for voting us there, but the perception from the outside world is "Oh here we go again...more Notre Dame bias." Then, we go out and we lay an 0-2 egg on the season and the world delights in our misery. With as unsettled at QB as we were heading into this season, as well as numerous other changes and unknowns that needed to be sorted out, was it really a surprise we struggled a bit? As much as we have, yes...but struggled? Not really to me. Perhaps there should be an option for the school that gets voted into a preseason ranking to decline it on the grounds that "We're just not good enough. Not one person in this room is good enough, including the coaches." Surely that would assuage the hatred by the Notre Dame haters...wouldn't it?

But then another aspect of this is...well, us. We lose two games, one we probably should have won (USF) and another that we definitely should have in Michigan, and suddenly it's Weis 2.0 all over the internet. "Oh, Kelly sucks!" "Fire Kelly!" "This team is terrible!" I wouldn't want to be counted as an Irish fan myself with fellow fans like that, nor would I want to play hard for fans like that if I were on the team. Today's athletes are very internet savvy...they know the pressure the Golden Dome is under and what people say about them night after night. They go out and give it what they have, and just like normal humans, they screw up at times. But, better not have a bad game in an Irish uniform because the lynch mob will be on your lawn with ropes and torches at the ready. Would you want to go play for a school with a fan base like that? Never mind the fact you have to be exceptionally bright and academically focused to succeed in the classroom and remain eligible TO play, unlike other big name college programs.

I believe it does us no good to second guess or bemoan the hiring of Brian Kelly. Or really, any coach at this point. What's the difference? Just like when the Boston Celtics had to come to grips with the "Larry Bird is NOT walking through that door!" speech, so to do we have to come to grips with "It doesn't matter who's walking through that door...we will not instantly become a nationally relevant powerhouse overnight." Bob Stoops, Urban Meyer...Hell, Knute Rockne...could be at the controls and we'd still get the same results we're getting (albeit with different play calling, but I digress). The problem to me is the perception of what we have, who we are as opposed to who we think we should be, and what is realistic in this day and age.

Since we don't have a playoff, in college sports it's pretty much a game of opinion. This team is better than that team. This team's fans will "travel" better (i.e. spend more money at the host city) so they get a bid to a bowl game. Even back in the old years of glory for Notre Dame, her national championships were always decided by "opinion". We haven't even had a real, #1 vs. #2 game until recently...and even that games' participants are voted in by opinion. So, the point here is, I feel we as fans should learn to temper our expectations. Where we go and how we are perceived in the college football world is formed by opinion. Right now, the world sees the Irish (and their fans) as whiny, rich, elitist, snobby and resting on the cobweb covered memories of well faded past glory. To make matters worse, we are the only team with a clause to get into the BCS games (when in some seasons, there are teams much more deserving of a shot at a big time game than we are). And when it all goes to pot? We bitch, moan and call for the coaching staff's heads no matter how little or long they've been on the job. We also come off as the ultimate bandwagoner...nearly breaking our own ankles in such a hurry to jump down and throw our fan hood into the ditches. Real fans hate bandwagoners.

So what's the answer for games like Michigan...or seasons like this one is shaping up to be? The same it's always been: Man up or stop being a fan. If you don't like what you see, stop watching. Notre Dame doesn't owe you anything, and despite what it looks like, they are trying to put a quality product on the field. Unfortunately, this isn't 1933 anymore. Since then, other schools have caught up and passed the Irish in many, many phases that they used to outright own (like recruiting, television coverage, etc.) Today's game is really difficult for a small, religious based school with high academic standards (and no bones about them) to compete with NFL football factories that loosely regard the rules until they get caught (and then pretend they care about them anyway). I've often considered our plight to those of the Ivy League schools...with the exception being that the Ivy League knows just who they are. They don't pretend to take aim at the "BCS National Championship" because to do so would be delusional. Yet, even though we employ some of the same academic standards, we still do. How arrogant do we pretend to be? Are we really arrogant enough to believe we can pull off both, year after year?

What I think Notre Dame nation needs to do is become comfortable in our own skin. We are not Texas, OU, Florida, Ohio State and Alabama. We are not a football factory with a springboard to the NFL. However, unlike those schools, we don't have to worry about skeletons being discovered in our closet because we cut corners to become a football factory. We are who we are...a classy school, bent on keeping it's morality in an increasingly murky sport, which prizes academics before winning (even though winning is important). We should care more about players that come to play for the Golden Dome herself, and not the NFL. If we win some games in the process, win a bowl game here and there, then so much the better. But, if we lose some games, or don't get invited to the bowl opinion series, then we should take pride in the fact that our players graduate, earn a respected degree, and stood for something. Sure, Notre Dame football is important...we all want to win. But, at the expense of looking like short sighted, arrogant and entitled fools? No. I say, stay classy Irish fans. Stay the course on this coach or whomever the athletic department feels is worthy and always, always...support the players who suit up and hurt for your entertainment.
 

Rack Em

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Just keeping this at the top of the Front Page. Good stuff my man. Beats the **** out of my Torts book.
 

Te'o4Heisman

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While i agree with the basic premise of what you are saying, I disagree that Notre Dame cannot recruit the elite of the elite. Sure there are kids we are going to miss on or will not be able to take because of factors other than their football ability, but when Coach Kelly is out bringing in recruits like Aaron Lynch, Stephone Tuitt, Ishaq Williams, George Atkinson, Ronald Darby, Tee Shepherd, Jarron Jones, Deontay Greenberry, Ben Koyack, Davaris Daniels, Matt Hegarty, Troy Niklas and money other national recruits in the past 1 1/2 recruiting cycles, you can not tell me we can't recruit to a BCS Championship level. We are still right in the thick of things with 8-10 top notch recruits, and if we win 8 or 9 games this year, and improve by another game or two over last years performance it may very well be enough to get those guys on campus. We are only 2 games into the season...last year 4 games into the season we were 1-3 and look at the recruiting hall we pulled in. If we win this week, there is no reason we can't be 4-2 coming into the big game with USC. We win that game and 9-2 heading into Stanford is a real possibility. Obviously we have to win 1 game at a time and right now we are 0-2, but I firmly believe we have a great coach, and program in place and it wont be long before that translates into the off field success and recruiting REALLY blows up.

This program was a 450 foot oil tanker heading full speed in the wrong direction when Coach Kelly stepped into up to the Captain's wheel. It takes time to turn something like that around. He reiterates it during almost every interview, but every day they are taking small steps and making progress towards being a BCS caliber football program...not team...program.

He has the administration on board. He has the training table in place. He has the facilities at his disposal. He has the budget to recruit nationally. He has an awesome strength and conditioning program in place. He has greatly increased the length, size and speed of the roster. Unfortunately, the results on the field have been the last thing to come around, but they will with time.
 

Pretend alum

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Sad but true

Sad but true

I , sadly, agree with your EXCELLENT post. Could, Bettis, Rashad, Brown or even Montana GET INTO ND these days? I don't think so. It is what it is. They DO have some excellent athtetes but, the opponent usually has more. Sad but true. Could Denard Robinson get into ND and major in phys. ed. NO. When they changed the admission standards, they changed EVERYTHING!!! You, my man, are very correct. WHAT exactly does ND want to be? Until they decide, and NBC cancels the contract, things will remain the same. Rarely great, sometimes horrible, mostly mediocore. ND is now, not an ELITE program.
 

dre1919

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I agree with you for the most part, Te'o. What I'm really saying more than anything is just that we need to be patient in our determination of what is or isn't working, from players on down through coaching. The thing is, when people say "We have been patient and it's still not where it needs to be" that's true...but, consider this: The last three hires before Kelly were terrible choices. Davie and Weis were great coordinators (but not HC's), and Willingham was just in over his head with relation to the pressure, recruiting and magnitude of the job. Davie, Willingham and Weis set us back further than where we are now. What if Brian Kelly took over after Holtz's program? We'd be in the thick of BCS talk more than we are these days (and with greater seriousness than currently viewed with too). So, as it pertains to coaching, we need to stop the "one and done" feeling that we seem to always have as a fan base...the desire to see immediate results or that person is a "failure" of a coach. Kelly is the right man for the job, and possesses the tools that Davie, Willingham and Weis did not (experience winning as a HC, experience winning a championship, etc). Is he the best coach in college football? No. But, he's not only the best we could realistically get, he's pretty good. As with all things...it requires time to see the transformation. Mistakes will be made, frustration will happen, but eventually there will be a breakthrough.

With regards to the recruiting...yes, I believe Notre Dame can still recruit top flight talent as well. But, we have to acknowledge the landscape of college football has changed so much that it has greatly evened out a recruiting scene that Notre Dame used to command with an iron fist. This is a fact unfortunately, and it's one that not only Notre Dame feels...but other programs do too. Look at the #1 QB recruit...he dropped OU for Indiana. Why? The head coach is the former Sooners offensive coordinator that has two Heisman trophy winners (and high NFL draft choices) on his resume. Indiana! So, while I feel we can gain a small handful of blue chip recruits, we will never be getting a truckload like in decades past. I think our characteristics as a school hinder us from getting a LOT of blue chip, top flight guys year in and year out simply because at Notre Dame they are under intense media pressure and the fact they actually have to pass classes. That isn't meant to sound like top flight talent is dumb in the classroom, it just means that coming to Notre Dame, versus, say Texas or Florida, is academically more challenging. It's another added burden that some players, especially ones interested in only waiting till their junior year to jump to the NFL, won't take on.
 
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Wolverine1997

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Just keep cheering for your guys. If ND can beat State this weekend, It'll be like a new season in your players heads.
 

dre1919

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I , sadly, agree with your EXCELLENT post. Could, Bettis, Rashad, Brown or even Montana GET INTO ND these days? I don't think so. It is what it is. They DO have some excellent athtetes but, the opponent usually has more. Sad but true. Could Denard Robinson get into ND and major in phys. ed. NO. When they changed the admission standards, they changed EVERYTHING!!! You, my man, are very correct. WHAT exactly does ND want to be? Until they decide, and NBC cancels the contract, things will remain the same. Rarely great, sometimes horrible, mostly mediocore. ND is now, not an ELITE program.

We once heavily recruited Randy Moss too. Think he would have gotten in? Even if he had, would he have been the kind of guy we wanted representing Notre Dame?
 

phgreek

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In the wake of the Michigan loss, I was going to post another thread trying to persuade people to understand where Notre Dame is in the real world now. Instead, I decided to push this thread back to the front and encourage people to re-read the first post I made here. Then, come back and read this post.

As an Irish fan, I used to wonder early on why there was so much widespread hatred toward the Irish. Why was it people felt true joy and optimism at seeing their losses pile up, their futility where there once was perfection on the grid iron. Then, a long time ago, I figured it out: As with all mighty programs, jealousy creeps in from the outside as others want what the big boys have. But, that couldn't be the only reason, right? It couldn't just be simple jealousy that fueled people's burning desire to see the Irish constantly in the college football dumpster, could it? As I stated with the first post in this article...it's not really them, it's us. As fans, we care a lot about the Irish football team. A LOT. But, as fans, we're also completely unrealistic about expectations and irrational when we win or lose.

We win a bowl game for the first time in decades and somehow we're supposed to be in the Top 25? Granted, that's the media's fault for voting us there, but the perception from the outside world is "Oh here we go again...more Notre Dame bias." Then, we go out and we lay an 0-2 egg on the season and the world delights in our misery. With as unsettled at QB as we were heading into this season, as well as numerous other changes and unknowns that needed to be sorted out, was it really a surprise we struggled a bit? As much as we have, yes...but struggled? Not really to me. Perhaps there should be an option for the school that gets voted into a preseason ranking to decline it on the grounds that "We're just not good enough. Not one person in this room is good enough, including the coaches." Surely that would assuage the hatred by the Notre Dame haters...wouldn't it?

But then another aspect of this is...well, us. We lose two games, one we probably should have won (USF) and another that we definitely should have in Michigan, and suddenly it's Weis 2.0 all over the internet. "Oh, Kelly sucks!" "Fire Kelly!" "This team is terrible!" I wouldn't want to be counted as an Irish fan myself with fellow fans like that, nor would I want to play hard for fans like that if I were on the team. Today's athletes are very internet savvy...they know the pressure the Golden Dome is under and what people say about them night after night. They go out and give it what they have, and just like normal humans, they screw up at times. But, better not have a bad game in an Irish uniform because the lynch mob will be on your lawn with ropes and torches at the ready. Would you want to go play for a school with a fan base like that? Never mind the fact you have to be exceptionally bright and academically focused to succeed in the classroom and remain eligible TO play, unlike other big name college programs.

I believe it does us no good to second guess or bemoan the hiring of Brian Kelly. Or really, any coach at this point. What's the difference? Just like when the Boston Celtics had to come to grips with the "Larry Bird is NOT walking through that door!" speech, so to do we have to come to grips with "It doesn't matter who's walking through that door...we will not instantly become a nationally relevant powerhouse overnight." Bob Stoops, Urban Meyer...Hell, Knute Rockne...could be at the controls and we'd still get the same results we're getting (albeit with different play calling, but I digress). The problem to me is the perception of what we have, who we are as opposed to who we think we should be, and what is realistic in this day and age.

Since we don't have a playoff, in college sports it's pretty much a game of opinion. This team is better than that team. This team's fans will "travel" better (i.e. spend more money at the host city) so they get a bid to a bowl game. Even back in the old years of glory for Notre Dame, her national championships were always decided by "opinion". We haven't even had a real, #1 vs. #2 game until recently...and even that games' participants are voted in by opinion. So, the point here is, I feel we as fans should learn to temper our expectations. Where we go and how we are perceived in the college football world is formed by opinion. Right now, the world sees the Irish (and their fans) as whiny, rich, elitist, snobby and resting on the cobweb covered memories of well faded past glory. To make matters worse, we are the only team with a clause to get into the BCS games (when in some seasons, there are teams much more deserving of a shot at a big time game than we are). And when it all goes to pot? We bitch, moan and call for the coaching staff's heads no matter how little or long they've been on the job. We also come off as the ultimate bandwagoner...nearly breaking our own ankles in such a hurry to jump down and throw our fan hood into the ditches. Real fans hate bandwagoners.

So what's the answer for games like Michigan...or seasons like this one is shaping up to be? The same it's always been: Man up or stop being a fan. If you don't like what you see, stop watching. Notre Dame doesn't owe you anything, and despite what it looks like, they are trying to put a quality product on the field. Unfortunately, this isn't 1933 anymore. Since then, other schools have caught up and passed the Irish in many, many phases that they used to outright own (like recruiting, television coverage, etc.) Today's game is really difficult for a small, religious based school with high academic standards (and no bones about them) to compete with NFL football factories that loosely regard the rules until they get caught (and then pretend they care about them anyway). I've often considered our plight to those of the Ivy League schools...with the exception being that the Ivy League knows just who they are. They don't pretend to take aim at the "BCS National Championship" because to do so would be delusional. Yet, even though we employ some of the same academic standards, we still do. How arrogant do we pretend to be? Are we really arrogant enough to believe we can pull off both, year after year?

What I think Notre Dame nation needs to do is become comfortable in our own skin. We are not Texas, OU, Florida, Ohio State and Alabama. We are not a football factory with a springboard to the NFL. However, unlike those schools, we don't have to worry about skeletons being discovered in our closet because we cut corners to become a football factory. We are who we are...a classy school, bent on keeping it's morality in an increasingly murky sport, which prizes academics before winning (even though winning is important). We should care more about players that come to play for the Golden Dome herself, and not the NFL. If we win some games in the process, win a bowl game here and there, then so much the better. But, if we lose some games, or don't get invited to the bowl opinion series, then we should take pride in the fact that our players graduate, earn a respected degree, and stood for something. Sure, Notre Dame football is important...we all want to win. But, at the expense of looking like short sighted, arrogant and entitled fools? No. I say, stay classy Irish fans. Stay the course on this coach or whomever the athletic department feels is worthy and always, always...support the players who suit up and hurt for your entertainment.

I understand your sentiments...but you remind me of Jimmy Carter...just a lil bit. Jimmy's major spiel was we should accept that we (America) aren't what we used to be, and accept that we aren't exceptional because too many factors impede us. Well we know what happened after Jimmy.

Competence at the helm is, and always will be THE difference. Mr. Kelly won with far lesser talent before he got here. I believe he will continue to do that even if, as you allude, the weight of academics, or whatever else is viewed as a hindrance makes recruiting tougher...One man with a vision, and belief does it every day...somewhere...with stiffer odds.

agree we should be good fans, and calm down a little...but dude, don't lower the bar in any endeavor because you will play to it as your ceiling...if we turn out to be what you say...it'll happen, and we'll see it in hindsight...but don't plan to be less.

I think our Leader is here...lets let him lead.
 
K

koonja

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Since when has ND had trouble offering (and if you offer, you're going to find a way to get him in) the top players in the nation? Look at the recruiting boards, all the top players have ND offers. Whether or not they want to come to ND is a separate point, but this staff and administration is not holding offers to top talent. This is not the problem.

Scout Football Recruiting Network Front Page

6 of the top 10 players hold an offer from ND.
 

dre1919

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I didn't say we had trouble offering scholarships to players. I said we had issues signing them as opposed to other programs.

Additionally, I'm not saying "lower the bar" or "make the entrance requirements easier". Quite the opposite. I'm simply implying that in this day and age, it's tough enough to try and be a championship program...with easy academic standards. Having tougher standards makes it more difficult when we've tried to recruit some guys (T. J. Duckett & Randy Moss come to mind), but I'm glad we have them. It sets us apart, and ensures our players graduate, appreciate a good education, and can spell! :). I just don't expect us to be a shining example if academia and an every season national championship contender at the same time. I think that's part of our problem...trying to be everything at the same time and it's a Herculean task.
 

phgreek

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I didn't say we had trouble offering scholarships to players. I said we had issues signing them as opposed to other programs.

Additionally, I'm not saying "lower the bar" or "make the entrance requirements easier". Quite the opposite. I'm simply implying that in this day and age, it's tough enough to try and be a championship program...with easy academic standards. Having tougher standards makes it more difficult when we've tried to recruit some guys (T. J. Duckett & Randy Moss come to mind), but I'm glad we have them. It sets us apart, and ensures our players graduate, appreciate a good education, and can spell! :). I just don't expect us to be a shining example if academia and an every season national championship contender at the same time. I think that's part of our problem...trying to be everything at the same time and it's a Herculean task.

My "lower the bar" comments were directed at expectations for the football team...not academics...I wouldn't figure that'd even be an option at ND. If the fan base is happy with grad rates, and gets luke warm on football success...thats not good for anyone...thats all I'm saying.

BTW...my view of success is a little less than making a run at an NC every year...so maybe I lowered the bar already...damn it, it was me all along. BCS contender 3 out of 5, and a serious run at an NC every 10...Running the state of Michigan 5 out of every 6. Hell even the guys cheating have a hard time meeting my criteria for success...so maybe I didn't lower the bar after all...

Given ND's academic rigors...is my idea of success too much? I don't think so...but hey, we'll see.
 

Old Man Mike

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Although I respect the linguistic excellence of the thread, I disagree greatly with most of the premise. It is the fact that Notre Dame is a nearly completely different "cat" that should not only be the source of our pride but the key to our excellence. Notre Dame can recruit many many players successfully BECAUSE we are who we are. We don't need every thug out there to field a winning team. We need 85 players. We need 21+ per year. There are an awfully lot of players playing high school football in this country. 21 of them will be as good as anybody else, especially if they're teammates.

Our problem is not that our guys are too smart, nor that they aren't street thugs. Our problem is that they have been recruited for a style of football that the game is leaving behind---the slower more powerful game of Hayes and Schembechler. The country, if we'll notice, has left the Big Ten behind too. The game is FAST, especially on defense. We aren't....yet. Who's trying to get us there?? KELLY.

If we were fast, would we have had to bend our defense out of shape in fear of BJDaniels?? Probably wouldn't even have done so because of Denard. Do we think Alabama or LSU would?? My view is that you don't have to be a thug or have a thinking deficit to be fast. Kelly's recruiting to "fast". Some of that fast is smart and RKG. We need to hold up a moment while he stocks the pantry.

Notre Dame can walk into a recruit's home and offer something NONE of the other schools can: Notre Dame, AS IT IS. How'd we get Lynch?? He slow?? He not elite?? You can tick off a BUNCH of Kelly's first full class that are in every way what modern football is all about --- but they're all FRESHMEN.

If the rest of the country wants to go "sell-out thug" for football money, I say go for it!! We'll stand on the high ground, and our beacon will appeal to 21 great Notre Dame players per year and they and we will be hated because we DO stand on the high ground---a single example of doing it right.

We have not lost games because we have high standards. We have lost games because of improper recruiting to the image of modern football, and improper coaching schemes to play in the 21st century. Kelly's a 21st century coach. Let him have some time to shed the useless lead we've been carrying and change the whole system.


p.s. when I went to school, even the meanest football players we fielded were classroom smart, and powerful and fast-enough for the football of the times. Players who combine thunder and lightning will [at a 21/year rate] still fight to get into the best undergraduate school in the country which plays bigtime football.
 

gkautz10

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A perfect example of this is how ND players interview. Listen to how all the players talk and how educated they sound. They have intelligent thoughts and articulate them clearly with proper English. I have noticed that not many freshman get the chance to do one on one interviews, which I am sure is because they go through a class and are taught interview etiquette. This is what people hate, that our players are intelligent and we beat other schools out for recruits. They know that they can not compete with ND if it comes to a semi intelligent kid. Dre19 I agree with you 100% when it comes to your points about people bashing the coaches after a 0-2 start. I agree Weis and Willingham were not good coaches, but it is extremely hard to come in and turn a mediocre program into a winning program after 3-5 years. Does it happen, absolutely every once in awhile, but mostly at schools where they pay their athletes to play and let go to school for football. I will always care about ND athletics even if we are irrelevant on the national stage, but the day we no longer hold ourselves to a higher standard, that is the day I will no longer be a ND fan. And for everyone who thinks we are no longer nationally relevant, then why do we year in and year out get national attention before the season in the polls and also just being talked about on college gameday. If we weren't relevant anymore, college gameday would not come to our games and ESPN would not discuss our season and look at it under the microscope. I say let the haters hate and we build ourselves back up on the back of BK! GO IRISH!!!
 

IrishinSyria

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Although I respect the linguistic excellence of the thread, I disagree greatly with most of the premise. It is the fact that Notre Dame is a nearly completely different "cat" that should not only be the source of our pride but the key to our excellence. Notre Dame can recruit many many players successfully BECAUSE we are who we are. We don't need every thug out there to field a winning team. We need 85 players. We need 21+ per year. There are an awfully lot of players playing high school football in this country. 21 of them will be as good as anybody else, especially if they're teammates.

Our problem is not that our guys are too smart, nor that they aren't street thugs. Our problem is that they have been recruited for a style of football that the game is leaving behind---the slower more powerful game of Hayes and Schembechler. The country, if we'll notice, has left the Big Ten behind too. The game is FAST, especially on defense. We aren't....yet. Who's trying to get us there?? KELLY.

If we were fast, would we have had to bend our defense out of shape in fear of BJDaniels?? Probably wouldn't even have done so because of Denard. Do we think Alabama or LSU would?? My view is that you don't have to be a thug or have a thinking deficit to be fast. Kelly's recruiting to "fast". Some of that fast is smart and RKG. We need to hold up a moment while he stocks the pantry.

Notre Dame can walk into a recruit's home and offer something NONE of the other schools can: Notre Dame, AS IT IS. How'd we get Lynch?? He slow?? He not elite?? You can tick off a BUNCH of Kelly's first full class that are in every way what modern football is all about --- but they're all FRESHMEN.

If the rest of the country wants to go "sell-out thug" for football money, I say go for it!! We'll stand on the high ground, and our beacon will appeal to 21 great Notre Dame players per year and they and we will be hated because we DO stand on the high ground---a single example of doing it right.

We have not lost games because we have high standards. We have lost games because of improper recruiting to the image of modern football, and improper coaching schemes to play in the 21st century. Kelly's a 21st century coach. Let him have some time to shed the useless lead we've been carrying and change the whole system.


p.s. when I went to school, even the meanest football players we fielded were classroom smart, and powerful and fast-enough for the football of the times. Players who combine thunder and lightning will [at a 21/year rate] still fight to get into the best undergraduate school in the country which plays bigtime football.

Hooah! Well said OMM. If anything, the last few games have demonstrated that ND still has an abundance of talent... its a question of putting it all together on the field.


If Academics serves as a detriment to ND football, I wonder if it's not in the time and energy the football players are required to put into class. When you're practicing 3-4 hours a day, going to class and doing homework and writing papers and getting ready for exams can take a lot out of a player.
 

sptanner88

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Well written. However, the issue that ND faces is not an either/or; not as black/white as you paint it. There is something between taking an SEC - no academic standards - approach and a no-academic scholarship, Ivy League approach. More importantly, the present issue is not how we compete with Alabama, LSU and Oregon, the issue is why can't we compete against South Florida and Michigan. ND was clearly the more talented team in both of those contests. Neither South Florida nor Michigan can be considered elite BCS contenders. So while there are over-riding philosophic issues to be addressed by ND as an institution, those issues do not explain the shocking results seen in the first two games played this year.
 

DomerInHappyValley

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Maybe it's our fault? Maybe we led you to believe that it was easy when it wasn't?
Maybe we made you believe that our highlights started on game day instead of the practice field?
Maybe we made you believe that every touchdown we scored was a game winner?
That our program was built on tradition and not passion?
Maybe it's our fault that you didn't see failure gave us strength?
That our pain was our motivation.
Maybe we led you to believe that National Championships were a God given gift and not something we worked for every single day of our life?
Maybe academics destroyed the program?
Or maybe we're just making excuses?
 

phgreek

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Maybe it's our fault? Maybe we led you to believe that it was easy when it wasn't?
Maybe we made you believe that our highlights started on game day instead of the practice field?
Maybe we made you believe that every touchdown we scored was a game winner?
That our program was built on tradition and not passion?
Maybe it's our fault that you didn't see failure gave us strength?
That our pain was our motivation.
Maybe we led you to believe that National Championships were a God given gift and not something we worked for every single day of our life?
Maybe academics destroyed the program?
Or maybe we're just making excuses?

...maybe we should have Rocket or Timmy Brown recite this...MJ kinda doesn't work for ND football.

I think these guys get the pain part...I don't think they are in any way Lebron...but we'll see
 
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