Future QB's: Who Would You Start?

[woolybug25]

Mine is historically improbable? Seriously? Did Sanchez start over Booty? No. Did Leinart start over Palmer? No. Did McCoy start over Young? No. Did Tebow start over Leak? No. And damn, that's just off the top of my head. C'mon man, younger QBs sit behind older QBs ALL THE TIME.

You said that if Crist stayed, you'd start Keil (currently a high school senior) over Hendrix and Golson (both 4 star QBs perfect for the spread with 3 and 2.5 yrs in the system, respectively), and Rees, who beat SC and Miami as a freshman. Disagree, but OK. Now, let's say that Crist does come out early. Would you still start Kiel over Hendrix and Golson, knowing how poorly true freshman play as QB's?

Again! For crying out loud dude, you are talking about true freshman seasons. No, none of those guys started over their predescessors as true freshman. Gunner wouldn't either and I never said that he would. I said he would likely start as a redshirted freshman. All of those guys you mentioned started before 3-4 seasons, which is my original argument. So using your examples, I am still correct. That has been my argument all along... so yes... histrory is indeed on my side.

On your second comment, yes. If Crist stayed, I think Gunner would start games once he graduated and when Gunner is a REDSHIRTED FRESHMAN. As I have stated several times, I do not believe that he would start as a true freshman. If Crist left early, I do not think that Gunner would take his spot. But I do think that he would see the field as a change of pace QB ala Tebow/Leak with Golson.

and that my friends... will be last comment not pertaining to Gunner's recruitment in this thread. See ya on the QB thread! :smilewink

 

[Rocket89]

Dude, you do realize that the only school on his leaderboard that doesn't have better depth than ND is Indiana, right? OU has some great players there he'd have to beat out, Michigan has Devin Gardner who was an absolute stud of a recruit and will be a RS soph when Kiel steps on campus, etc.

I know people love our QBs, but Andrew Hendrix and Everett Golson are all B+ QBs with lots of upside according to the rest of the nation.... and that is far less intimidating than some of these other schools. Hell, a great example is Demtrius Jones and Zach Frazer. Frazer was a top 10 QB and Jones was all a premier dual threat guy... yet Clausen still signed with ND. The QBs on our roster right now don't even come close to those two when looked at in terms of high school prospects.

Relative to other teams, the depth at QB for ND is really not every intimidating at all.

Umm, I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that Cincinnati, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Northwestern, Purdue, TCU, Tennessee, ULCA, and Wisconsin do not have better QB depth than Notre Dame right now.

You could probably throw a couple more teams on there like Oklahoma...really nothing too scary behind Jones (who is gone after 2011) besides Bell.

 

[BGIF]

Could we move this conversation off of his thread into a different one, such as a QB discussion thread. Just don't think we should clutter Gunner's thread in case people come looking for recruiting or statistical information with this argument.

AMEN!

 

[IrishLax]

Umm, I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that Cincinnati, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Northwestern, Purdue, TCU, Tennessee, ULCA, and Wisconsin do not have better QB depth than Notre Dame right now.

You could probably throw a couple more teams on there like Oklahoma...really nothing too scary behind Jones (who is gone after 2011) besides Bell.

While it's hard to project right now, the only school on that list that people feel is a 'lock' to be in his top 5 is Indiana. His leaders, based on what I've read, tend to be viewed as Oklahoma, Michigan, ND and Indiana. So you're correct, but that list isn't exactly what I meant by leaderboard.

While ND has two B+ rated guys he'd have to beat out, OU and Michigan both have an A rated guy. No matter where he goes of those four (besides Indiana) he will likely end up sitting a couple years. There is an outside shot at ND that he could start as a RS frosh if and only if he develops really well, Crist plays the next two years injury free and he beats out Hendrix/Golson.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Again! For crying out loud dude, you are talking about true freshman seasons. No, none of those guys started over their predescessors as true freshman. Gunner wouldn't either and I never said that he would. I said he would likely start as a redshirted freshman. All of those guys you mentioned started before 3-4 seasons, which is my original argument. So using your examples, I am still correct. That has been my argument all along... so yes... histrory is indeed on my side.

On your second comment, yes. If Crist stayed, I think Gunner would start games once he graduated and when Gunner is a REDSHIRTED FRESHMAN. As I have stated several times, I do not believe that he would start as a true freshman. If Crist left early, I do not think that Gunner would take his spot. But I do think that he would see the field as a change of pace QB ala Tebow/Leak with Golson.

and that my friends... will be last comment not pertaining to Gunner's recruitment in this thread. See ya on the QB thread! :smilewink

You are qualifying your original statement, which I re-read again just to make sure I wasn't going crazy:

Once Crist graduates or gets hurt again, Gunner would be the likely successor. He is unanimously the best QB recruit in the country...As much as I like Hendrix and Golson, I would be shocked if they got the gig over a prospect of Gunner's pedigree.

Crist could get hurt again while Gunner is a true freshman, and that's what I was talking about. Once Crist leaves, it'll be every man for himself, and my money would still be on the talented veterans perfect for the spread (Hendrix, Golson) or the wily veteran with major wins in his belt over the upstart redshirt freshman.

I re-read your other posts, and there is no argument that underclassmen who are redshirt sophs in their 3rd years do well. That's not even an argument. I'm talking about true freshman and redshirt freshman, and that is all. When I have more time later on tonight, if you like, I'll make a list of top freshmen who haven't done well or haven't played at all over the last 15 yrs in their first 2 yrs in college, and you can make a list of top freshmen QBs who have done well, and we'll see where the historical history takes us. Cool?

 

[Rocket89]

This discussion really is all over the place!

True freshmen never do great. But there are a ton of second year players in recent memory who were.

I like Notre Dame's depth at QB. I think Hendrix or Golson are the future, and I don't think Kiel is walking into that situation, but I'd love to have him, make no mistake.

 

[woolybug25]

You are qualifying your original statement, which I re-read again just to make sure I wasn't going crazy:



Crist could get hurt again while Gunner is a true freshman, and that's what I was talking about. Once Crist leaves, it'll be every man for himself, and my money would still be on the talented veterans perfect for the spread (Hendrix, Golson) or the wily veteran with major wins in his belt over the upstart redshirt freshman.

I re-read your other posts, and there is no argument that underclassmen who are redshirt sophs in their 3rd years do well. That's not even an argument. I'm talking about true freshman and redshirt freshman, and that is all. When I have more time later on tonight, if you like, I'll make a list of top freshmen who haven't done well or haven't played at all over the last 15 yrs in their first 2 yrs in college, and you can make a list of top freshmen QBs who have done well, and we'll see where the historical history takes us. Cool?

Show me one post where I said that Gunner would start as a true freshman. My opinion has been the same the entire time. I dont give two craps how well true freshman have historically done, because it doesnt have any relevance to my argument that Gunner would start as an underclassman and not have to wait 3-4 seasons to get on the field. The original claim was that he would sit for 3-4 years, and I am simply stating that historically, #1 recruited QB's ALWAYS see the field early.

So make a list if you want, but while your at it, make a list of #1 recruited QB's and tell me how many of them waited as long as you are suggesting to start. *Spoiler* You wont find many.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Agree to disagree?

 

[NDinL.A.]

Show me one post where I said that Gunner would start as a true freshman.

Ummmmm, I just did. You said if Crist got hurt, Kiel would start. I said he wouldn't. That's where this whole damn thing started.

My opinion has been the same the entire time. I dont give two craps how well true freshman have historically done, because it doesnt have any relevance to my argument that Gunner would start as an underclassman and not have to wait 3-4 seasons to get on the field.

And I could give 2 craps about that as well. My assertion has been from the jump that Gunner shouldn't see the field his freshman yr or even his redshirt freshman yr, because those guys historically do not do well, and thier teams do not do well. Yes, there are outliers, but true freshman and redshirt freshmen usually do not do well, period. Calling guys 3 years into a program "underclassmen" is ridiculous to this argument, b/c I never siad those guys don't succeed. That's actually when they do start to succeed.

The original claim was that he would sit for 3-4 years, and I am simply stating that historically, #1 recruited QB's ALWAYS see the field early.

So make a list if you want, but while your at it, make a list of #1 recruited QB's and tell me how many of them waited as long as you are suggesting to start. *Spoiler* You wont find many.

I just said, make your list about all those guys who did great as young QBs, and I'll make mine. *Spoiler* you won't do it because you know you'll be wrong.

As for that list you are talking about, I could give a rat's arse b/c I've never said they don't see the field early, I've said THEY DON'T DO WELL, and I'm right. (That's why you won't do the list I asked about).

Edit: I just looked over the entire thread. We're arguing 2 separate things. You're saying the Kiel will start in 2013 (which I disagree with...he hasn't even played his senior year yet!!!!!!, but I digress), and I'm saying that I'd rather NOT have him start b/c young QBs usually struggle, and their teams struggle as a result. That's it. I agree that top QBs play early. here's no arguing that. They just don't play well early (Gilbert, Heaps, Clausen, Stafford, etc).

 

[IrishInFl]

I have a "hunch" that Kelly will never start a freshman QB, at least game one. Maybe as a change of pace QB like Tebow his freshman year, which Golson may do.

 

[woolybug25]

Ummmmm, I just did. You said if Crist got hurt, Kiel would start. I said he wouldn't. That's where this whole damn thing started.


And I could give 2 craps about that as well. My assertion has been from the jump that Gunner shouldn't see the field his freshman yr or even his redshirt freshman yr, because those guys historically do not do well, and thier teams do not do well. Yes, there are outliers, but true freshman and redshirt freshmen usually do not do well, period. Calling guys 3 years into a program "underclassmen" is ridiculous to this argument, b/c I never siad those guys don't succeed. That's actually when they do start to succeed.



I just said, make your list about all those guys who did great as young QBs, and I'll make mine. *Spoiler* you won't do it because you know you'll be wrong.

As for that list you are talking about, I could give a rat's arse b/c I've never said they don't see the field early, I've said THEY DON'T DO WELL, and I'm right. (That's why you won't do the list I asked about).

Edit: I just looked over the entire thread. We're arguing 2 separate things. You're saying the Kiel will start in 2013 (which I disagree with...he hasn't even played his senior year yet!!!!!!, but I digress), and I'm saying that I'd rather NOT have him start b/c young QBs usually struggle, and their teams struggle as a result. That's it. I agree that top QBs play early. here's no arguing that. They just don't play well early (Gilbert, Heaps, Clausen, Stafford, etc).

The statement you are referring to has that words "or until Crist gets hurt", which you are taking as "Gunner would immediatly become the starter if Crist got hurt", which is not my intent at all. In fact, I later clarify it by saying that I do not think that Gunner would start any games his true freshman year (and have reiderated it in damn near every post). So using one statement out of context does not show that I was asserting that Gunner would play as a true freshmen.

Just because true freshmen historically do not do well, does not prove that Gunner would not play early. The whole argument of whether young guys do well is your argument, not mine, so I have no reason to argue it one way or the other. But if you want me to make a list of young QB's that made a difference before their 3rd season, here ya go:

- Matt Barkley
- Tim Tebow
- Vince Young
- Colt McCoy
- Terrelle Pryor
- Sam Bradford

All of these guys were impact players before the start of their 3rd season. But as I said, ITS IRRELEVANT TO MY ARGUMENT. What this list does add to my argument, is that all of these guys saw the field before their 3rd season. Were the ones that played as true freshman successful at first, no. But that doesn't mean that they didn't get an opportunity to start before their 3rd season, just like I am saying Gunner would.

 

[woolybug25]

I have a "hunch" that Kelly will never start a freshman QB, at least game one. Maybe as a change of pace QB like Tebow his freshman year, which Golson may do.

And no one, including myself, have suggested that he would start as a true freshman.

This confusion is coming from NDinLA using examples of the struggles of true freshmen as evidence that somehow Gunner wouldnt get an opportunity to start until after his 3rd year.

 

[SLCIRISH]

Basically, my point is Gunner is not better than what we have, I have watched his films and he looks like Hendrix and Golson, no better.

Barkley is a bust, I cant believe we are talking about him.

If we are thinking that ND will be in the NC picture, in 2012, 2013, then Gunner better not be the QB, we better have someone with alot more experience. Especially with the SOS.

 

[SLCIRISH]

Let me play;
QBS who were not highly rated who made differences within 3 years;

Alex Smith
Brian Johnson
Moore (BSU)
Dalton (TCU)

It doesnt matter what your star rating is it is about getting into a system that fits, Gunner does not fit the spread, strike 1, he would be sitting behind 2 QBs who ran the spread in High School and have 2 years in BKs system, strike 2, and he just isnt better than Hendrix or Golson regardless of their star ratings.

 

[woolybug25]

Basically, my point is Gunner is not better than what we have, I have watched his films and he looks like Hendrix and Golson, no better.

Barkley is a bust, I cant believe we are talking about him.

If we are thinking that ND will be in the NC picture, in 2012, 2013, then Gunner better not be the QB, we better have someone with alot more experience. Especially with the SOS.

1) Thats fine if you like Golson/Hendrix better than Gunner. That doesnt mean that #1 QB's don't historically play early.

2) Barkley is a bust? I guess beating OSU in the shoe on a last minute drive as a freshman is underperforming? He is already in the top 10 all time USC QB's in almost all statistical categories. He hasnt ever lost to ND (Mustain played last year). He is 17-7 as a starter and is about to start his junior year. If thats a bust, then I hope Crist can be a bust for us this year!

3) Your last point is fine, but it doesnt prove that he wouldnt be (saying that we get him in the first place).

 

[woolybug25]

Let me play;
QBS who were not highly rated who made differences within 3 years;

Alex Smith
Brian Johnson
Moore (BSU)
Dalton (TCU)

It doesnt matter what your star rating is it is about getting into a system that fits, Gunner does not fit the spread, strike 1, he would be sitting behind 2 QBs who ran the spread in High School and have 2 years in BKs system, strike 2, and he just isnt better than Hendrix or Golson regardless of their star ratings.

I have no idea what the relevence of this list is. On one side, you are saying that you dont have to be highly rated to make a difference (which was never brought up nor disputed) and on the other side, showing my point that talent plays early.

Overall, I don't see what you are getting at.

 

[SLCIRISH]

1) Thats fine if you like Golson/Hendrix better than Gunner. That doesnt mean that #1 QB's don't historically play early.

2) Barkley is a bust? I guess beating OSU in the shoe on a last minute drive as a freshman is underperforming? He is already in the top 10 all time USC QB's in almost all statistical categories. He hasnt ever lost to ND (Mustain played last year). He is 17-7 as a starter and is about to start his junior year. If thats a bust, then I hope Crist can be a bust for us this year!

3) Your last point is fine, but it doesnt prove that he wouldnt be (saying that we get him in the first place).

17-7 at USC with no NC is a bust, regardless of stats.

Gunner, if he wants to play early better go to Indiana, or a MAC school, because he would have to beat out alot of talent.

 

[woolybug25]

17-7 at USC with no NC is a bust, regardless of stats.

Gunner, if he wants to play early better go to Indiana, or a MAC school, because he would have to beat out alot of talent.

As I said, if being one of the best QB's in the nation is a bust, then sign me up.

If Gunner wants to play early, then he can go to damn near any school in the country. Name me one #1 recruited QB in the history of college football that had to settle for a MAC school in order to see the field early. haha.

 

[Riddickulous]

17-7 at USC with no NC is a bust, regardless of stats.

Gunner, if he wants to play early better go to Indiana, or a MAC school, because he would have to beat out alot of talent.

That's laughable.

Barkley was a freshman and a sophomore. His sophomore year, he was under the tutelage of one of the nation's worst head coaches.

I suppose Jimmy Clausen's career record of 15-20 as a starter labels him a bust, as well.

 

[SLCIRISH]

I have no idea what the relevence of this list is. On one side, you are saying that you dont have to be highly rated to make a difference (which was never brought up nor disputed) and on the other side, showing my point that talent plays early.

Overall, I don't see what you are getting at.

I am saying that star status doesnt guarantee anything, football is football, Jordan Wynn (3 star)started at Utah as a frosh, won 5 or 6 games. But last season he had a horrible season. Just because Gunner is the top rated QB doesnt mean, he should be our #1 QB, would we recruit an option QB?

 

[SLCIRISH]

That's laughable.

Barkley was a freshman and a sophomore. His sophomore year, he was under the tutelage of one of the nation's worst head coaches.

I suppose Jimmy Clausen's career record of 15-20 as a starter labels him a bust, as well.

I would say Clausen is a bust, great stats, no BCS win or National Champioship, you guys watch the game for stats? I watch to see wins, that is the only way to rate QBS.

Barkley is over rated, injury prone and I bet he wont even make it to the ND game.

 

[woolybug25]

I am saying that star status doesnt guarantee anything, football is football, Jordan Wynn (3 star)started at Utah as a frosh, won 5 or 6 games. But last season he had a horrible season. Just because Gunner is the top rated QB doesnt mean, he should be our #1 QB, would we recruit an option QB?

So how many of the guys on your list beat out a higher rated recruit in order to start early? None of them, thats how many.

Using examples of guys starting early at schools like Utah, BSU, TCU, etc does not prove that #1 QB's being recruited to Tier 1 programs will sit the bench. Its a silly argument.

 

[Riddickulous]

I would say Clausen is a bust, great stats, no BCS win or National Champioship, you guys watch the game for stats? I watch to see wins, that is the only way to rate QBS.

Jimmy Clausen's junior year was spectacular. He displayed incredible accuracy and was remarkably efficient, certainly looking like a five-star quarterback. It certainly wasn't his fault that we had no OL, running game, or defense.

 

[SLCIRISH]

As I said, if being one of the best QB's in the nation is a bust, then sign me up.

If Gunner wants to play early, then he can go to damn near any school in the country. Name me one #1 recruited QB in the history of college football that had to settle for a MAC school in order to see the field early. haha.

Good point. Maybe not the MAC. But he would have to dazzle to start in year 2 at OU, or ND.

 

[woolybug25]

I would say Clausen is a bust, great stats, no BCS win or National Champioship, you guys watch the game for stats? I watch to see wins, that is the only way to rate QBS.

Barkley is over rated, injury prone and I bet he wont even make it to the ND game.

If he never made it to another ND game again, he would be undefeated against us. He will be a first round pick when he chooses to leave, so he will end up being a pretty successful "bust".

Using your philosophy, every QB in the history of the game that did not win a championship or BCS game was a bust. Do you consider Joe Theisman a bust?

 

[SLCIRISH]

So how many of the guys on your list beat out a higher rated recruit in order to start early? None of them, thats how many.

Using examples of guys starting early at schools like Utah, BSU, TCU, etc does not prove that #1 QB's being recruited to Tier 1 programs will sit the bench. Its a silly argument.

Jordan Wynn beat out the no 1 jc QB, his frosh year. Call it what you will but he ws still the no 1 jc QB.

 

[NDinL.A.]

If we are thinking that ND will be in the NC picture, in 2012, 2013, then Gunner better not be the QB, we better have someone with alot more experience. Especially with the SOS.

Thank you!!! That's all I've been saying. All this other nonsense about all top QBs starting young (which I agree with) means crap to me...none of those 1st year QBs took their teams to NCs, and unless they were surrounded by all-world talent, which ND does not yet have, they weren't going to BCS either.

I never want to have to see a repeat of a Clausen having to start as a freshman in my lifetime...

 

[woolybug25]

Jordan Wynn beat out the no 1 jc QB, his frosh year. Call it what you will but he ws still the no 1 jc QB.

[/ blank stare]

 

[woolybug25]

I never want to have to see a repeat of a Clausen having to start as a freshman in my lifetime...

Now this is something we all can agree on!

reps

 

[SLCIRISH]

If he never made it to another ND game again, he would be undefeated against us. He will be a first round pick when he chooses to leave, so he will end up being a pretty successful "bust".

Using your philosophy, every QB in the history of the game that did not win a championship or BCS game was a bust. Do you consider Joe Theisman a bust?

When you are the QB at USC, Alabama, OU, etc... if you are the number 1 QB and you do not win a NC in your 4 years, you are a bust.

Was Joe the top QB prospect in the nation?