Why does ND always choke in the Tournament?

GDomer09

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^This

IrishMoore1

One big thing you showed in your original post is 7 tourney invites in the past 11 years! Like it's been said before Brey just got BE coach of the year....it's not just because were ND other people who know much more than you about B-ball r seeing something special!!!! The talent or lack there of on the court got us #2 in the BE this year. That's coaching!!!

& a couple of regular season wins....couple<26.
 

choo choo

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Terribly ignorant, Duke recruits ridiculously and even Butler gets better players than ND

yeah, im not sure just how duke is a powerhouse and championship contender every year without any athletes...uh and maybe someone should look at butlers numbers over the past few years - very underated...im not saying coaching is the difference, brey is doing a credible job in my opinion...but i would have our football program compared to those guys
 

PADOMERNUT

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That is a load of crap. You think Brey didn't coach up Hansbrough? He was the freaking BE player of the year after being a nobody coming out of high school!!! But players have ceilings, and someone with Hansbrough's height, quickness and overall athleticism has a lower ceiling than a Kyrie Irving no matter how much you coach them.

At the end of the day, basketball is one of those sports where God given physical abilities make or break a player. You can't teach 7 foot, a silky smooth jump shot or an Allen Iverson-esque cross over.

Dont bother arguing. Brey gets all the blame when big time recruits like chris thomas or torin francis dont get better throughout their careers. But he never gets any credit when he churns Big East POY'S out of guys like Harangody or Hansbrough who were not highly recruited at all. Harangody called his Dad before his freshman season, in tears, saying he would never play there because Rob Kurz handed him his lunch. Yet he turned him into a BE POY and a NBA draft pick. But hell with him! He cant develop players!!
 

TDHeysus

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I think alot of universities judge the basketball programs' success by whether or not they make the NCAA tourney, not if they win the NC. Football is all about winning the NC, its NC or bust. Basketball is different; in basketball you can make the NCAA tourney and win a couple games, or even get an upset and that is considered a good year.

I agree with what some ppl are saying with regards to the athletes; you need the horses to win. Look at the type of player that ND would recruit, they would be going after the same types of players that Duke (and other basketball schools) would go after. If your an top tier basketball player (that doesnt go to the NBA), is 'Basketball school Duke' more attractive, or 'football mecca ND'? probably more often than not, its gonna be Duke. So ND misses out on that top tier level talent in general

I think ND is at a disadvantage in basketball because ND is a perceived 'football school', and there are other percevied 'basketball schools' that a top tier talent would choose over ND in much the same way that an incoming HS football player may be more inclined to go with 'football school' ND over another 'basketball school' program.

Set aside top tier talent, and I think ND has a good chance of landing any HS basketball player. Its those 1 and done, top tier guys that ND has trouble is getting. And its those top level guys that usually, not always, go far in the tournament.
 

Lou Holtz

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The only better coach you could get to coach 4yr players is probably coach K one of the best coaches ever(maybe Brad Stephens as well). If you look at big time coaches like Cal who get the one and dones and some of the others like pitino, Boeheim, Calhoun, and Roy Williams, i can honestely say that i think that they couldnt be sucessful at Notre Dame, not because of their coaching abilities but because they wouldnt be able to get the 5 star recruits that they can get at their respective schools due to lower academic standards.

The bottom line is players dont come to Notre Dame to be one and done, they want educations. Brey is the perfect coach and i hope he is around for a long time
 
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ab2cmiller

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IrishLax nailed it. It is the style of play and lack of athletes.

Our reliance on the three is not effected as much during the regular season because we have good ball movement and work together as a team to get good shots.

During the tournament, I would argue teams simply try a little harder on defense knowing the stakes. So what was an open 3 during the regular season ends up being a contested 3 in the tourney and our shooting percentage drops significantly because we don't have the athletes that can break down the defense.
 

GoldenIsThyFame

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Tweet from Kemba Walker (No Joke):

@Kemba15Walker: Just heard a funny thing Sometimes, late at night, Ben Hansbrough puts on a Kemba Walker jersey so he can feel like a winner
 

FightingIrishLover7

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Tweet from Kemba Walker (No Joke):

@Kemba15Walker: Just heard a funny thing Sometimes, late at night, Ben Hansbrough puts on a Kemba Walker jersey so he can feel like a winner

It's kinda true, Ben doesn't have near the track record as Kemba... but Ben is a tremendous leader none the less
 

IrishLax

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It's kinda true, Ben doesn't have near the track record as Kemba... but Ben is a tremendous leader none the less

Really? Because Hansbrough showed up Kemba hardcore the two times they played this year. Even when he flopped and got Hansbrough to foul out Ben still had a better night then him. And then Kemba missed clutch shot after clutch shot with the game on the line. That's why Ben got BE player of the year and was the only unanimous choice first teamer... and Kemba wasn't.

People put WAY too much stock in the tournament. Kansas has a dominant year, goes cold at the line and from the field, loses to VCU. Does that mean Kansas sucks? Notre Dame beats good teams all year, gets an awful matchup in Florida State and then Florida State shoots the lights out from 3. Does that mean ND sucks? No, it means Florida State would've beaten anyone in the country that night. I was at the United Center for the first round game of Texas A&M vs. Florida State and FSU scored like 23 points in the first half and just looked AWFUL.

Anyways, my point is there is a reason why they play series in pro hockey and pro basketball and pro baseball... because in those sports more than any in any singular game there is just a tremendous amount of pure luck involved. No way VCU wins a 7 game series over Kansas, Butler over Pitt, etc. Part of that is what makes March Madness great, but on the flip side of the coin it is probably the worst playoff format imaginable for crowning a national champion if you believe the best team should have that title.
 

IrishLax

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On one final, interesting note.

Kansas has the PERFECT makeup of a team to win a national championship. They have literally every ingredient you need and were given the easiest path to a championship in recent memory. They also have a coach who has won a national championship and did it against a much tougher path that included a team lead by soon-to-be NBA MVP Derek Rose.

And they just got THUMPED by #11 seed VCU. So for all the rationale people like myself have for "what makes a good tourney team" and "why ND chokes"... it is proven time and time again that the NCAA is really just a crap shoot where anything can happen.
 

InKellyITrust

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Really? Because Hansbrough showed up Kemba hardcore the two times they played this year. Even when he flopped and got Hansbrough to foul out Ben still had a better night then him. And then Kemba missed clutch shot after clutch shot with the game on the line. That's why Ben got BE player of the year and was the only unanimous choice first teamer... and Kemba wasn't.

People put WAY too much stock in the tournament. Kansas has a dominant year, goes cold at the line and from the field, loses to VCU. Does that mean Kansas sucks? Notre Dame beats good teams all year, gets an awful matchup in Florida State and then Florida State shoots the lights out from 3. Does that mean ND sucks? No, it means Florida State would've beaten anyone in the country that night. No way VCU wins a 7 game series over Kansas, Butler over Pitt, etc. Part of that is what makes March Madness great, but on the flip side of the coin it is probably the worst playoff format imaginable for crowning a national champion if you believe the best team should have that title.

100% agree. Hansbrough looked like a winner the last time that he was in Storrs.
 

Mr. McGibblets

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On one final, interesting note.

Kansas has the PERFECT makeup of a team to win a national championship. They have literally every ingredient you need and were given the easiest path to a championship in recent memory. They also have a coach who has won a national championship and did it against a much tougher path that included a team lead by soon-to-be NBA MVP Derek Rose.

And they just got THUMPED by #11 seed VCU. So for all the rationale people like myself have for "what makes a good tourney team" and "why ND chokes"... it is proven time and time again that the NCAA is really just a crap shoot where anything can happen.

Roger this.

Also, two tweets later within the same hour Kemba says "its a joke yall cant dis the big east poy"
 

GoldenIsThyFame

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Roger this.

Also, two tweets later within the same hour Kemba says "its a joke yall cant dis the big east poy"

Also appears to not be the real Kemba:

@Ezpassone5: Everybody RT that the @kemba15walker is a fake page because he's killing me lol he's makin me look corny haha. Do me this favor everyone.

We have been jobbed!
 

NCDomer

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UNC doesn't have thugs and they do quite well in basketball.
How easily we forget McCants. Former UNC Tarheel Star Plays Cross Dressing Thug on Internet ~ Alt-Tab
And you have QT rapping (which doesn't make him a thug, it's just slightly related) Former UNC basketball player Quentin Thomas readies first rap album | Music Feature | Independent Weekly

On a more serious note, UNC has its share of players who ran into legal problems. Of course a site with this name would exist to provide the details: UNC Rapsheet- Karolina Klass
 

Mr. McGibblets

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Choking Article: Opinion?

Choking Article: Opinion?

Self merely highest-profile victim of game's evolving chipmunks

By Gregg Doyel
CBSSports.com National Columnist

I come here to praise Bill Self, not to bury him. Not even in that creepy, metaphorical way that Bruce Weber once buried Bill Self at Illinois. That's not me. For one thing, I'm not creepy. For another, I'm not here to bury Bill Self at all. Not literally. Not figuratively.

Not for losing to VCU on Sunday.

And Northern Iowa last year.

And Bradley in 2006, and Bucknell in 2005.

Not for any of that, because Bill Self doesn't deserve the national knee-jerk reaction of the past two days, when he has been labeled on blogs -- seen 'em, like here -- and on radio shows (heard 'em) as a choker. It's not fair, or right, and the reaction says more about the reactors than it does about Bill Self.

Hey, I've been there. I've misunderstood -- or completely missed -- a trend that was right in front of my eyes. That was June 2009, when I renounced an Internet fad as "the dumbification of America." I was referring to Twitter. More than 25,000 belated tweets later, allow me to say: Oops.

People ripping Bill Self right now? People calling him a choker? That'll be you in a few years. You'll be saying: Oops. Because in a few years you'll understand what I understand right now, that being this:

What we have in college basketball is a new food chain, and while the biggest, baddest animals on that chain remain the same -- Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina and, yes, Kansas -- the rest of the chain has evolved. Even the animals in the middle of this food chain are vicious predators. In real life, VCU would never beat Kansas. That would be like a chipmunk eating an alligator. But this isn't real life.

This is college basketball.

And college basketball has changed over the years, most importantly cutting scholarships from 15 to 13 but also expanding the NCAA tournament from 48 to 64 (now 68) and putting teams of all sizes on television. Add all of that together -- the additional access to players, exposure and March Madness -- and a school like VCU is no longer a normal chipmunk. Now it's a chipmunk with 6-inch incisors.

And they're all over the forest.

It didn't happen overnight. The tournament field expanded from 48 to 64 in 1985. The scholarship reduction from 15 to 13 took place in 1994. And the television exposure continues to grow, even today. It took time, but the accumulated effect, today, is obvious.

Look at the number of chipmunks in the Elite Eight or Final Four or even the national championship game. Four chipmunks have reached the Final Four in the past six years -- George Mason in 2006, Butler in 2010 and '11, and VCU in '11. Davidson had a shot at the buzzer to get to the Final Four in 2009. Butler reached the title game last season, and Butler or VCU will play for the title this season.

With very good Division I players now feeling free to roam about the country, and with the absolute best Division I players leaving the biggest programs for the NBA after a year or two in college, we've never seen talent spread so far and wide. What I mean is, these aren't loaded mid-majors crashing the Final Four. This isn't Gonzaga with Adam Morrison or Saint Joseph's with Jameer Nelson or Navy with David Robinson, all highly rated teams that entered NCAA tournaments with high expectations.

The year George Mason reached the Final Four, the Patriots were an afterthought, possibly unworthy of their at-large bid. The same was said this year of VCU, only more harshly. VCU did not deserve to be in this tournament, according to most Selection Sunday analysis. Whether the Rams had a bid-worthy résumé is a matter of opinion, but since getting that bid the Rams have demolished some of the most highly regarded teams in the country, including -- yes -- Kansas.

So Bill Self choked? I don't see how. In addition to what has been happening around college basketball in the past decade, look at what happened Sunday to Kansas. Brady Morningstar and Tyrel Reed are seniors who simply had a horrible shooting day. It happens. It's not a reflection on coaching that Reed and Morningstar missed 9 of 10 generally open looks on 3-pointers. It's not a reflection of coaching that Marcus and Markieff Morris played volleyball on the offensive glass, missing more than they made from point-blank range.

Don't make me out to be a Bill Self apologist, either, because I'm not. In February 2005, when Kansas lost three consecutive games, I called Self the anti-coach of the year. A month later when Kansas lost to Bucknell, I howled some more. That stuff reached Self's ears, because when I met him for the first time in June 2005 at the Nike camp in Indianapolis and stuck out my hand, he shook it without a smile -- and proceeded to quote from my stories from February and March. Verbatim. That has never happened to me, before or since.

What I didn't know in March 2005 was that college basketball was changing. Gone are the days when the biggest schools make like the Morris twins on the offensive glass and play volleyball with Final Four appearances -- sharing them, hot-potato-like, while the little guys craned their necks and watched.

The little guys aren't craning their necks anymore. They're stepping on necks. In the past six years, UConn has lost to George Mason and San Diego. Syracuse lost to Butler and Vermont. Pittsburgh lost to Pacific and Bradley. Ohio State? To Siena. Some of those teams haven't reached the NCAA tournament every year, though, which means they've avoided the appearance of choking in one game by failing over the course of a whole season. Better, right?

Mock Self for some of Kansas' season-ending losses if you like, but consider this your own personal Twitter moment. The game is changing, changing to the point that 30 years from now, when we look back on Bill Self's career, we'll care only about the national title (or titles) he won. We won't dote on the losses that seem so glaring right now, because by the year 2040 we'll understand: College basketball evolved during the Bill Self era. Chipmunks eat alligators. They eat alligators all the time.
 

Mr. McGibblets

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Not sure if I like chipmunk to alligator comparrison. But I like his point that there are opportunites to play in NBA outside of the major programs. With TV coverage, internet, and recruting services, players at mid-majors are able to be noticed more than ever.

Talent is definitely spread far and thin. But I'm not so sure that I mind it.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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Do you know what the expectations were this year? Call him out next year, not now... anyone that does is irrational.
 

SBjandy7

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What Notre Dame needs to do is throw money at Shaka Smart. Why let him go to Illinois when we have all the money in the world to improve our basketball program? The women have their coach with Coach McGraw and the men need their coach. Shaka Smart is the answer for Notre Dame. Defense, toughness and even more defense.
 

BeauBenken

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Don't hate on Brey. Only coach other than Digger to lead ND to 5 straight 20+ win seasons. And this season looked like we'd be lucky to get 15. Good job by Brey this year for sure. The boys gave this one away. A really ugly way to lose.
 

ndyeater

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Sick of all the Brey Bashing...we didnt have high hopes this year...we were actually supposed to have a miserable year.lets be thankful that we even got to the tournament.We need to be thankful for brey,seriously think about where Notre Dame basketball was before brey...enough said.Brey didnt make the bad pass,or that horrible violation.We had a great year with the talent we have.Now lets go root on our women!!
 
B

Buster Bluth

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People who rip on Brey are morons, it's as simple as that.

No one, and I mean no one, expected Notre Dame to make the tournament this season. Hell, no one expected it on January 1st either. The amount of improvement this team had throughout the course of the season was insane.

Next year Atkins and Grant will limit their idiotic plays, simply because of their experience growth and Brey's coaching. If Notre Dame adds some height and consistency in the paint and a guy on the edge who can make plays independently...look out. Oh that's right, Sherman and Biedschied accomplish that.

Sweet 16 or Bust in 2013.
 

IrishMoore1

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So how long is Brey allowed to make it only to the 2nd round or 1st round every other year (given we make the tournament) before you start to question his ability to do win with this program? It's been 12 years already...
 

Mr. McGibblets

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Too many white players is not the main problem. Just look at Duke who won the tournament last year.

Its funny you say tht because I was thinking the other day that I dont know why Brey doesnt get into recruiting battles with Coach K. Im sure he targets the Duke kids but you never hear him stealing a kid from Duke. Literally, I dont think he has over gotten a 5* "Duke in final list of schools" recruit.

If I werent on my phone Id look up Brey's 5* signings. Id set the over under at 1.5 and take the under. Hell, I think Harrangody was 3* and Hansbrough was probably a 3 as well.

Not saying Brey isnt targeting 5* players because he definitely does and has to, but blows my mind that he hasnt gotten lucky and signed a 5* Duke caliber, ND smarts recruit.
 
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Mr. McGibblets

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Also, i know Hansbrough was a transfer before anyone chimes in with that gem of knowledge.
 

KPENN

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Its funny you say tht because I was thinking the other day that I dont know why Brey doesnt get into recruiting battles with Coach K. Im sure he targets the Duke kids but you never hear him stealing a kid from Duke. Literally, I dont think he has over gotten a 5* "Duke in final list of schools" recruit.

If I werent on my phone Id look up Brey's 5* signings. Id set the over under at 1.5 and take the under. Hell, I think Harrangody was 3* and Hansbrough was probably a 3 as well.

Not saying Brey isnt targeting 5* players because he definitely does and has to, but blows my mind that he hasnt gotten lucky and signed a 5* Duke caliber, ND smarts recruit.

Also, i know Hansbrough was a transfer before anyone chimes in with that gem of knowledge.

Hansbrough was a 2:s: on rivals. The only 5:s: according to rivals was Torin Francis

Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2002 Notre Dame Commitments
 
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