Academic Standards

[jason_h537]

How is Stanford winning games with harder admission standards than us?

Answer: they hired the right guy

Give Kelly time.

 

[Honey Nut Irish]

BINGO
Coach Kelly... Proven HC who has a 20 year track record of building programs.

Yup. Thats one helluva program they got going there in Cinci. If Cincinnati wasn't in the Big Easy they would have only been mediocre at best under The Anointed One.

We didn't need to build a program! We were a defense and a running game away from being a contender! I'm not saying we should have kept Weis, but we scrapped everything to start from scratch!

What I'm saying is independent from the team's recent results. I'm willing to give Kelly a fair shot, I don't want him fired, I just think people need to wake up to reality a little bit.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

"The Experts" on ESPN just did a segment about ND and mentioned much of what has been said here. Overall tone was dismal. Maybe someone can find the clip and post here.

 

[GreatGolson]

Idk if the mods could do this, but could you guys put a poll on here, something like, "Should ND lower academic standards for football players?' i think thatd be cool

 

[aubeirish]

"The Experts" on ESPN just did a segment about ND and mentioned much of what has been said here. Overall tone was dismal. Maybe someone can find the clip and post here.

We are not getting much love from ESPN, that's not news. That doesn't help the recruiting. That aside, Kelly will find a way folks. I have faith!

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Yup. Thats one helluva program they got going there in Cinci. If Cincinnati wasn't in the Big Easy they would have only been mediocre at best under The Anointed One.

We didn't need to build a program! We were a defense and a running game away from being a contender! I'm not saying we should have kept Weis, but we scrapped everything to start from scratch!

What I'm saying is independent from the team's recent results. I'm willing to give Kelly a fair shot, I don't want him fired, I just think people need to wake up to reality a little bit.

You forgot Special Teams, since 2005 ND's special teams have been terrible. So we needed a running game, defense, and special teams....then we may have been a contender?

If Cinci were not in the Big East they would have been mediocre? That's speculation. Cinci would've done well in the ACC, Pac 10 prior to this year, Big Ten, and Big 12 North. Not dominated, but would have been above mediocre. They would have been in the middle of the pack in the SEC, you're probably right there.

What if BK stayed with Cinci for 5 more years? They wouldve drawn better, and more recruits as they won more and more games.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

We are not getting much love from ESPN, that's not news. That doesn't help the recruiting. That aside, Kelly will find a way folks. I have faith!

Me too. I think the team suffered from a very strong early schedule and a coach trying to do too much in a new situation. I don't mind about the verbals that flaked out. Flakes are flakes. Kelly showed early that he can quickly produce a disciplined team. Few dumb penalties, until they started looking good and refs took over. I'm not kidding about that. Officiating in NCAA can sometimes appear criminal... but I digress...

I HATE the spread, but it works for so many good programs. I think Coach and staff have their collective **** together and are going through the most horrid of times. I hope they stay the course and weather the storm.

I am 100% behind this staff.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Uhhhh....on recruiting: before the Prestwood/Lynch disaster, we were ranked #2 class in the country by Rivals and #3 by Scout.[even with the abandoners our ranking hasn't crashed to mediocrity]. Lynch's situation seems to have inspired much of this talk again. Unless we have massive de-commits due to stated fear of academics, my reading of the actual evidence of this year is that we can recruit just fine just as we are. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Perhaps the oft-stated complaint of lack of speed is more due to past coaching desires for Lombardi/Hayes football in selecting the players in the first place. It's a REALLY big country out there, and I've seen many speed players come across our board with interest this recruiting season. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Kelly says he recruits "skill", "big skill", and "power". Part of that "skill" is speed---that is even the reason for the Riddick shift to slot. Until I see what Kelly can do with his [welcome] vision of 21st century football, I'm not about to turn us into LSU or Alabama or Florida State.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Old Man Mike. As genius as you are, and a stated college professor, I need to ask: Didn't all that experience teach you to learn the "Enter" button to create a new paragraph?

 

[Old Man Mike]

To my best buddy, Neutered: The pre-technology era from which I survived had no computers and, since I was a lazy little fart who wanted to be in the Rock all the time playing basketball, I didn't even learn to type. Each thing that I learn happens purely by accident. Hopefully, my incompetence will take up our board's and our coaching staff's quota of universal incompetence, so no one else will have to suffer with it. It's a burden I carry. Hmmm..."Enter" button...?

 

[irishtrain]

<P>All this debate about academics is missing the point. There is no point at the schools that are winning. They do not care if you keep up in class you will play if you are a contributor on the field, you will not become ineligible - just go to class. Should I put this in bold letters--you guys are missing the point. Notre Dame is the only school trying to do it this way. Navy is not the same, football is not even a priority. They are there to prepare for military service so the games are fun/games with no pressure. Stanford is on a roll it will end or Harbaugh will leave. The big boys today are semi pro football teams that are saying the education is here if you can swing it but you are here to play football. Unless this changes at Notre Dame you will have the same finesse, soft football team, that maxes out at 8 wins tops. There I said it- I have refained from this post for 2 years but it has become time for someone to state the truth. Even the Notre Dame Experience shouts it from the roof tops- Welcome To Notre Dame Stadium enjoy the festivities of a grand college experience- oh by the way we used to be pretty good but now just sit back and have a grand time at our expense. Its because the school is still raking in $$$$$ and the football teams cache' hasnt been hurt one bit. You let the $$$$ dwindle from an embarrasing football program and you %%$#well better believe they'll change it. The program hasnt sunk deep enough yet because there's still Tom Hammond and the NBC boys and the stadium is filled on Saturdays experiencing the Notre Dame Experience. Like I said they havent hit rock bottom yet, when they do they will change. By the way if you think all the boys of Stanford are going to be in the Senate or CEO's of a major corp your delusional. </P>

 

[IrishinSyria]

<P>All this debate about academics is missing the point. There is no point at the schools that are winning. They do not care if you keep up in class you will play if you are a contributor on the field, you will not become ineligible - just go to class. Should I put this in bold letters--you guys are missing the point. Notre Dame is the only school trying to do it this way. Navy is not the same, football is not even a priority. They are there to prepare for military service so the games are fun/games with no pressure. Stanford is on a roll it will end or Harbaugh will leave. The big boys today are semi pro football teams that are saying the education is here if you can swing it but you are here to play football. Unless this changes at Notre Dame you will have the same finesse, soft football team, that maxes out at 8 wins tops. There I said it- I have refained from this post for 2 years but it has become time for someone to state the truth. Even the Notre Dame Experience shouts it from the roof tops- Welcome To Notre Dame Stadium enjoy the festivities of a grand college experience- oh by the way we used to be pretty good but now just sit back and have a grand time at our expense. Its because the school is still raking in $$$$$ and the football teams cache' hasnt been hurt one bit. You let the $$$$ dwindle from an embarrasing football program and you %%$#well better believe they'll change it. The program hasnt sunk deep enough yet because there's still Tom Hammond and the NBC boys and the stadium is filled on Saturdays experiencing the Notre Dame Experience. Like I said they havent hit rock bottom yet, when they do they will change. By the way if you think all the boys of Stanford are going to be in the Senate or CEO's of a major corp your delusional. </P>

No, I think we do get the point. ND's academics have become a big handicap for the program. No argument there. ND is not, and will never be, an LSU or an Alabama. But you know what? Those schools will never be Notre Dame. I would rather root for a team that finishes #1 in graduation rates than a team that finishes #1 in the BCS. If you want to cheer for a program that sends more players to prison than it graduates, ND's not your school.

 

[irishtrain]

No, I think we do get the point. ND's academics have become a big handicap for the program. No argument there. ND is not, and will never be, an LSU or an Alabama. But you know what? Those schools will never be Notre Dame. I would rather root for a team that finishes #1 in graduation rates than a team that finishes #1 in the BCS. If you want to cheer for a program that sends more players to prison than it graduates, ND's not your school.

Oh well I tried---. It has nothing to do with grad rates. That can be maintained at Notre Dame with a tweek in the players academic agenda. Enjoy the @#$kickings. Dont tell me Notre Dame's not for me when I smuggled a radio into the bullpen in Milwaukee to listen to the games. I pull for Notre Dame because they are a 'national treasure' and I remember a time when tough street kids were given a chance to get educated there while they traded their football talents for a scholarship. The nation is not in love with Notre Dame because of their grad rates. The nation loves Notre Dame because it used to stand for a place were football excellance was celebrated and young men were given the chance to become 'Notre Dame men'.

 

[NDMontana]

Oh well I tried---. It has nothing to do with grad rates. That can be maintained at Notre Dame with a tweek in the players academic agenda. Enjoy the @#$kickings. Dont tell me Notre Dame's not for me when I smuggled a radio into the bullpen in Milwaukee to listen to the games. I pull for Notre Dame because they are a 'national treasure' and I remember a time when tough street kids were given a chance to get educated there while they traded their football talents for a scholarship. The nation is not in love with Notre Dame because of their grad rates. The nation loves Notre Dame because it used to stand for a place were football excellance was celebrated and young men were given the chance to become 'Notre Dame men'.

I don't think the possibility of what you're suggesting is that far off. Look, as along as people are spending big money on tickets and buying apparel/souveniers and as long as they get that big contract from NBC, then the administration is going to say that they can have their standards and still make boat loads of cash.

As soon as a real disinterest sets in amongst fans and they stop spending money and NBC isn't willing to pay so much, the administration (which is funny to say considering we're talking about some clergymen) is going to have a come to Jesus moment. They're going to realize that ND fans aren't going to continue to buy into the old "we'll trot a new coach every four or five years and reaffirm our comment to ND football returning to its glorious roots" routine as credible any longer. At that point, they'll have two choices:

1. Keep the academic standards and fade into mediocrity for good. Join the Big Ten for the television money and take a yearly drubbing from Michigan, OSU, MSU, Penn State, Nebraska and occassionaly Iowa.
2. Admit a few athletes who normally would not be accepted into the school.

The big defeciency for ND is on the O/D Lines. And take it from me (a d-lineman through and through)....we're not the smartest breed of players out there!

 

[phork]

All the academic points are invalid due to Stanford's success. Whether it lasts or not, whether Harbaugh stays or not, he has built a juggernaut. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Stanford admissions even tougher?

 

[enrico514]

Can't take the credit for finding this but I think it clearly shows what we need to get back to the top: Take a chance on a couple of guys a year... Sourround them with all the resources they need and make sure they graduate. When you're willing to take a chance on a guy I believe most will surprise you with how well they respond to the challenge!!!



But if you had to pinpoint the start of Notre Dame's fall from dominance, it had to be in December of 1991 when the school hosted many of the nation's premier prospects during two very important recruiting weekends. Since arriving in South Bend, Holtz and Cerrato often had to negotiate with Notre Dame's admissions department for borderline students to be accepted into the university. The requests were not uncommon, and Notre Dame's academic success rate with borderline students over the previous five years had been exemplary. However, during December of '91, the majority of Notre Dame's top recruits were turned down academically, many of them while on campus visits, as the admissions department took its stand. - Tom Lemming

Link: ESPN.com - RECRUITING - Cerrato has the winning edge

 

[ndcoltsfan2010]

Over here too!!

Thanks for the info. Getting into ND is a tough thing to do for your average kid. High test scores and being in the top 5 percent is usually the norm with of course a solid GPA. I can imagine us taking C+ student/athletes with some other attributes. I think we already allow kids who normally would not get into ND a chance. At what point or how low do you drop the standards to allow a football player to get into ND? I don't think we have done that bad recruiting as previous recruiting classes will show. The problem or at least one of the problems as I see it is that we have not developed our players to their potential with the exception of a few. When you combine player development, new offense and defense philosophies, new coaching and just trying to rebuild a program from the ground up, you are undoubtedly going to have some hard time on the road to success. I think we are experiencing a very painful time at ND because we are starting in alot of ways from rock bottom and working our way back up. The bottom line is, I think ND is ok with sticking with their academic standards. As much as I love our football program, I love the university even more. I love everything that ND represents. ND is not for everyone. It is hard and it requires alot of dedication and hard work to succeed. It is the blue print for the life of success if you really think about it. Obtaining a degree at Notre Dame should be the ultimate goal. The degree that ND gives a person, opens up so many opportunities that just don't exist elsewhere but for a handful of schools and Stanford being one of them.

 

[NDOM]

Can't take the credit for finding this but I think it clearly shows what we need to get back to the top: Take a chance on a couple of guys a year... Sourround them with all the resources they need and make sure they graduate. When you're willing to take a chance on a guy I believe most will surprise you with how well they respond to the challenge!!!



But if you had to pinpoint the start of Notre Dame's fall from dominance, it had to be in December of 1991 when the school hosted many of the nation's premier prospects during two very important recruiting weekends. Since arriving in South Bend, Holtz and Cerrato often had to negotiate with Notre Dame's admissions department for borderline students to be accepted into the university. The requests were not uncommon, and Notre Dame's academic success rate with borderline students over the previous five years had been exemplary. However, during December of '91, the majority of Notre Dame's top recruits were turned down academically, many of them while on campus visits, as the admissions department took its stand. - Tom Lemming

Link: ESPN.com - RECRUITING - Cerrato has the winning edge

Ahhhh. yes. the good old days. I'm actually old enough to remember before Lou Hotz but anyway. Yeah Cerrato was a sick a$$ recruiter. Cerrato/Holtz was just an insane coaching/recruiter combo and ND let them walk away. Shameful.

 

[Rocket89]

All the academic points are invalid due to Stanford's success. Whether it lasts or not, whether Harbaugh stays or not, he has built a juggernaut. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Stanford admissions even tougher?

Juggernaut is a bit much.

Harbaugh is barely over .500 and Stanford lost to 5 unranked teams last year, including Wake Forest.

They look great this year, but were beaten by a true juggarnaut in Oregon by 21 points.

They've had some nice success and big wins, which is a hell of a lot more than Notre Dame, but Stanford can't be called a juggernaut when they haven't even won a bowl game under Harbaugh.

I always think about a team like Cal, a great school that seems to have no problem dropping nearly all requirements for its football players. I'm of the opinion that anyone who wants to go to Notre Dame should be allowed to as a football player. There will be problems if ND went down that road, but the University has probably the best resources you can think of to keep kids heads on straight and get them to graduate without making a joke of it.

 

[DCirishfan]

Ahhhh. yes. the good old days. I'm actually old enough to remember before Lou Hotz but anyway. Yeah Cerrato was a sick a$$ recruiter. Cerrato/Holtz was just an insane coaching/recruiter combo and ND let them walk away. Shameful.

As a Redskins fan I tried to actually defend Vinny buy he was a turrible NFL guy.....no question.

 

[DCirishfan]

Juggernaut is a bit much.

Harbaugh is barely over .500 and Stanford lost to 5 unranked teams last year, including Wake Forest.

They look great this year, but were beaten by a true juggarnaut in Oregon by 21 points.

They've had some nice success and big wins, which is a hell of a lot more than Notre Dame, but Stanford can't be called a juggernaut when they haven't even won a bowl game under Harbaugh.

I always think about a team like Cal, a great school that seems to have no problem dropping nearly all requirements for its football players. I'm of the opinion that anyone who wants to go to Notre Dame should be allowed to as a football player. There will be problems if ND went down that road, but the University has probably the best resources you can think of to keep kids heads on straight and get them to graduate without making a joke of it.

Juggernaut? LOL puhlease, how many NC's have the Cardinal one with Jim? Let's see the long term record in the Pac-24 or whatever it will be. Long term high standards loses to lower standard high profile BCS all day. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Honey Nut Irish]

You know I do not attend ND and probably never will, so maybe my opinion does not carry as much weight. I don't see anything wrong with lowering standards for football. Personally I think the consideration of legacy status in admissions is hurting the University more than separate sports standards.

As long as the graduation rate stays where it is I don't see the problem. After all isn't college football about building young men?

Their college admission stats in my opinion are not really the only factors that should be considered. Even as someone who personally did very well on the SAT, I will be the first to tell you that the test does not reflect how good of a student someone is.

I want a guy who maybe didn't score as well in high school, but is willing to work his butt off on the field and in the classroom. Just because someone killed the SAT and has a great gpa does not mean they have any work ethic, many times it means just the opposite.

 

[GEORGIA DOMER]

maybe the guys are not working as hard on the field because they have so much to fall back on like a ND degree. just a thought

 

[IrishinSyria]

Oh well I tried---. It has nothing to do with grad rates. That can be maintained at Notre Dame with a tweek in the players academic agenda. Enjoy the @#$kickings. Dont tell me Notre Dame's not for me when I smuggled a radio into the bullpen in Milwaukee to listen to the games. I pull for Notre Dame because they are a 'national treasure' and I remember a time when tough street kids were given a chance to get educated there while they traded their football talents for a scholarship. The nation is not in love with Notre Dame because of their grad rates. The nation loves Notre Dame because it used to stand for a place were football excellance was celebrated and young men were given the chance to become 'Notre Dame men'.

I'm sorry, but they do tweek the player's agendas and they do admit kids who would never, in a thousand years, have a chance to go to ND without football. "Tough street kids" still are given a chance to earn their education. Then, they provide them with tutors, study halls, supervision...anything they need to make it through the academic curriculum. But the school has decided that there are certain standards that must be met if one is to earn a degree from ND. In the 1960s, they kicked a student out for stealing a pencil from the bookstore. One pencil. They've eased up on that , but the principle still holds.

As for schools like Cal, they're so much bigger than Notre Dame that the football team's presence on campus is dampened. At ND, everybody knows at least one or two football players and is impacted by their behavior. Newsflash: they're not saints.

What you really miss, if I might be so presumptuous to tell you, are the days when ND could give 115 scholarships. Without the scholarship limits, ND would still compete for the National Title every year. With them, you need a combination of good coach, good schedule, and good leadership from your players. Remember when Miami seemed like the perfect college football team? And then when USC seemed like they were a professional team? Or Florida? They've all fallen on hard times. They'll be back, just like we will.

No program in the limited scholarship era can do what you remember ND doing. Our academic standards, and the fact that we make sure our football players meet them, draw at least as many recruits to us as they keep away.

And of course ND is for you, but it's not going to change for you or for me or anybody else. ND is about integrity first, then academics, and then football. Either you embrace that or you don't, ND doesn't care.

 

[LongRun]

I think what Nd needs to do is start a program for kids who want to play football and finish a two year degree. Do something that works for these kids where they actually learn something rather than nothing and at the same time get a shot at playing football. Notre Dame Stanford, Vandy, Northwestern are all average football teams. sure they win some games but they will never be an Alabama or USC. I think 22 years of having one of the worst records while having great coaches has proven it. We need to change with the times or become another Princeton.

 

[irishff1014]

As a Redskins fan I tried to actually defend Vinny buy he was a turrible NFL guy.....no question.

As another redskins fan this football season has been hard.

 

[phork]

As a Redskins fan I tried to actually defend Vinny buy he was a turrible NFL guy.....no question.

Juggernaut? LOL puhlease, how many NC's have the Cardinal one with Jim? Let's see the long term record in the Pac-24 or whatever it will be. Long term high standards loses to lower standard high profile BCS all day. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't know about you guys, but I know I would love to have a 7-1 record right now. Your only loss being to the #1 team in the country. He built this team in 4 years and they are now a top10 BCS team. You can't argue with that. And he did it at Stanford.

 

[goldnblew]

The idea of "academic standards" cited by the reason for ND's less-than-stellar performance over the last 20 years is widely embraced by many ND Alum. I for one hope this trend never is rectified - can't fix what you fail to see as broken.

The REAL reason is that not only is Kelly the wrong guy, but the RIGHT guy doesn't want to be at Notre Dame - how's that for painful reality. There are AT LEAST 5 guys that they would rather have instead of Kelly…… Gruden, Meyer, Harbaugh, Tressel, Saben.

Which brings us to why Kelly (and the Hamburgler before him). Each of the RIGHT coaches know what it takes to be a TRUE BCS contender – a physical team that can run downhill. Case in point, watch Oregon – They are a scary team and can score a ton of points and they are a run first team. The Tulsa game showed that Kelly is using gimickry that may work at Podunk State University but will never win the close grind-it-out games.

The sorry thing is that ND fans and ND mucky-mucks know this but there isn’t much they can do about it.

What makes it even the more excruciating is that they can't find comfort (as hard as they may try) in using the "academic standards" cop-out. After getting rolled by USC, ND faithful can cry “our academic standards are too high and we would never stoop to the level of the University of Spoiled Children. We will never compromise”. Then go home, have your corned beef and cabbage and feel all better.

But when they see Stanford – with WAY higher academic standards, smaller student body, located in a much more interesting and vibrant location (etc, etc, etc) play smash mouth football……. Kinda takes away any excuses. I'm tempted to say "man-up ND faithful" but think it's better for the head to remain buried in the sand.

On top of it all, there is something that ND never had to deal with before…. Financial constraints. Of course, these were self inflicted wounds. First, they are still paying for Ty’s rounds of golf out in sunny California. The Hamburgler’s pay out was huge. As sad as the Declan Sullivan tragedy was, there will be a financial impact as well. Then Kelly has a 6-year deal.

So with any luck, "academic standards" will continue on along with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus

 

[IrishinSyria]

The idea of "academic standards" cited by the reason for ND's less-than-stellar performance over the last 20 years is widely embraced by many ND Alum. I for one hope this trend never is rectified - can't fix what you fail to see as broken.

The REAL reason is that not only is Kelly the wrong guy, but the RIGHT guy doesn't want to be at Notre Dame - how's that for painful reality. There are AT LEAST 5 guys that they would rather have instead of Kelly…… Gruden, Meyer, Harbaugh, Tressel, Saben.

Which brings us to why Kelly (and the Hamburgler before him). Each of the RIGHT coaches know what it takes to be a TRUE BCS contender – a physical team that can run downhill. Case in point, watch Oregon – They are a scary team and can score a ton of points and they are a run first team. The Tulsa game showed that Kelly is using gimickry that may work at Podunk State University but will never win the close grind-it-out games.

The sorry thing is that ND fans and ND mucky-mucks know this but there isn’t much they can do about it.

What makes it even the more excruciating is that they can't find comfort (as hard as they may try) in using the "academic standards" cop-out. After getting rolled by USC, ND faithful can cry “our academic standards are too high and we would never stoop to the level of the University of Spoiled Children. We will never compromise”. Then go home, have your corned beef and cabbage and feel all better.

But when they see Stanford – with WAY higher academic standards, smaller student body, located in a much more interesting and vibrant location (etc, etc, etc) play smash mouth football……. Kinda takes away any excuses. I'm tempted to say "man-up ND faithful" but think it's better for the head to remain buried in the sand.

On top of it all, there is something that ND never had to deal with before…. Financial constraints. Of course, these were self inflicted wounds. First, they are still paying for Ty’s rounds of golf out in sunny California. The Hamburgler’s pay out was huge. As sad as the Declan Sullivan tragedy was, there will be a financial impact as well. Then Kelly has a 6-year deal.

So with any luck, "academic standards" will continue on along with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus

First of all, your points would have more impact if you were a little bit more respectful in the way you made them. Charlie Weis is generally considered to be a good guy, no reason to make jokes about his weight.

Second, hard nosed football certainly has its appeal. Teams like Alabama, Wisconsin (why don't people talk about them more?), and Stanford have shown that it's very much alive and well in college football. And neither Wisconsin nor Stanford will ever out-recruit Notre Dame, so you're right: the Academic Standard myth is nothing more than a fairy tale.

But, downhill first is not the only way to win in CFB. Oklahoma had some pretty good teams running a spread. Florida, Texas, Texas Tech, Utah, Arizona, and...yes...Cincinnati too. When Kelly's offense clicks it will put points up on the board, don't worry about that. And one of the few bright spots this year is that the defense has been much improved. They need to make a few more clutch plays, but they're certainly trending in the right direction, especially considering how many guys they've had hurt this year.

I was never a Kelly guy, but I am now. Given enough time, Kelly will be able to consistently field tough, fast defenses and effective offenses at ND. Wins will come along for the ride.

 

[goldnblew]

IrishinSyria... Point well taken regarding Weis.

My point about running downhill is that a team needs to be able to get the tough yards once they get to the red-zone. The danger of the spread is that a team could rack-up 500 yards of offense and kick 6 3's. The teams that have run the spread well, including the ones you mentioned, had been able to develop that nastiness when they had to - on short yardage and inside the red-zone.

Regarding recruiting.... I don't believe that ND academic standards are keeping the "speed guys" out of Notre Dame. It's not the admissions dept.... as made painfully evident by the 3 defections by 4* recruits. They didn't decommit because they couldn't get in.