Charlie Promised Better

[Seanthornton]

Must have been a slow college football week....they're looking crap to write just to stir the BS !!! and some are weak enough to read it.

We need to stay in the fight. We are not perfect thats for sure but....."Work in progress"
For now try to stay positive . We are still in the hunt !!






Keep the faith !!!

GO !! IRISH!!!

 

[BGIF]

So you're saying that if we lost, say..........Michael Floyd, the offense would fall apart?

Dare we mention the Heisman Caliber QB playiing with a steel plate IN his shoe
... and the Starting FB who missed most of the season
... and the Starting RB who plays on a nagging ankle injury
... and the #3 WR Kamara playing all season on a injured knee,
... and the #4 WR Parris mangled ... anybody seen Evans and Walker
... and the RB converted to emergency FB who got a concussion
... and ...


How many predicated that ND would win any games with a #2, #3, and #4 WR lineup of Kamara, Goodman, and Toma?

Kamara the only offensive player who gets ripped more than Jonas Gray.
Goodman, the HS QB, who still takes snaps at QB.
Toma who "was only allowed to come to ND to keep Te'o from being homesick". I've actually read that post.

They were three fourths of the WR 2 deep against BC.

 

[TDHeysus]

Charlie Weis, although not perfect, is doing a hell of a job. (I think I have re-iterated this fact about 972 times on various posts)

I can see the FatMan going 10-2, or 9-3 and landing some REALLY good recruits along the way...and ppl would still bitch at him. Look at some of the recruits that ND is in the hunt of getting. If CW and his staff were to land 3 or 4 BIG recruits (henderson, prater, cooper, nix, barr, etc) ppl would still find a way to complain.

If CW lands those recruits, or a majority of those recruits, my backing of Weis will get stronger and stronger; it would give me more ammo to fight the irrational ND fans, and the ND haters nationally. Weis doesnt need to land those recruits for him to have my support, but it only cements my support for him.

 

[weisbank4]

Golden is on pace for 1450+ yards.....and before the year I was with you thinking that Floyd was a way more complete receiver and an overall better one that Tate, but its pretty hard to make that argument now. Considering that Tate really has no other receiver to take away any attention from him and that he is literally the only deep threat on the team, I think right now he's more "unstoppable" than Floyd has ever been.

Without a doubt Floyd is the best receiver on the team.

 

[IrishAddiction]

CW has my backing, because right now he is on the right path. he is coaching well, compared to two years ago when the play calling was horrible. its the defensive side where coaching is suspect IMO.

i am one who is actually wishing Corwin was still calling the plays. the last two seasons the defense wasnt the problems, the offense was. our defense would play well until the 4th quarter when they were wore down from being on the field the whole game bc the offense wouldnt sustain drives.

 

[BGIF]

I think the article was spot on. A lot of ND fans were "proud" or "happy" to just look like they belonged on the field with SC.

You've never been a supervisor at work, have you?
Or raised a child?
Or been through rehab?

Willingham damaged this program almost as severly as an NCAA Death Penalty.
Willingham was the equivalent of a stroke. After a stroke you have to learn to reuse muscles that worked automatically since birth. The whole body doesn't respond magically. The rehab folks work one muscle group at a time. Progress is slow and painful but rewarding as the coordination, strength and functionality return.

Yeah I'm happy that this ND team didn't get blown off the field like they did during the Willingham years and the following years due to his residual damage. They were COMPETITIVE in EVERY GAME they've played this year. The Fight is back in the Irish.

I don't delude myself that we've returned to the ranks the elite. But we continue to make progress toward that end:

COMPETITIVE with anybody - even with all the injuries
Ended the bowl drought
Ended the MSU streak
Ended the BCS streak
Almost ended the Southern Cal streak, the one will end next year.
A Heisman Candidate in '06 and one in '09.
A Blitnekoff Candidate who came on campus as a RB (sounds like player development)
A Mackey Candidate
and in a year or two a Butkus Candidate
Back ranked in the polls
11 for 11 Field Goals.
Competitive 2 Deep

The real smarts of that article was the dependence on skill position players. Even back with BQ - it was Quinn, Walker, Samardija, and Stovall. Remove 1 or 2 of them and we were screwed.

When Weis came in he flatly stated he would use emphasize uising what resources were there. Willingham left a disaster in both trenches and RBs with no speed yet Weis turned Walker into a 1000 yd rusher and developed 2 1000 yard receivers on that team. He developed Quinn from a squatter to 1st Round Draft Choice.

And you would be running an Option Attack with that material.

Remove 1 or 2 of them and we are screwed

• Hmmm, despite their deeper talent the Sooners have lost 3 games without Bradford, haven't they?
• Where would Texas be without McCoy and Shipley?
• Florida without Tebow and Cooper?

Its still the same. In the trenches we are suspect. Both sides of the ball.

How many sacks a year when Clausen was a freshman? NCAA Record Setter ring any bells. How many now when Clausen plays with a steel plate in his shoe?

No, we're not elite but anyone who knows college football knows you don't plug freshman and sophomore OLs and DLs in they take 2-3 years to build up Division 1 size and strength, and develop Div 1 technique. ND doesn't use JUCOs like OU, Southern CAL, and the entire SEC. Did you see what happened to Bama in their bowl last year when their stud JUCO lineman couldn't play?

Care to list all Willingham's OTs?

We are so used to absolutely atrocious running games that this year seems good but were getting 3.7 yards per carry. That is abysmal. I remember when ND backs averaged 6 yards a carry every year. Reggie Brooks I believe averaged 8 one year.

3.7 ypc is a long way from atrocious and abysmal. Yet, it's not the goal Weis set for this season, is it?. And the season is't over yet, is it?

You remember ND backs averaging 6 yards a carry EVERY YEAR.

Really?

Some backs did hit 6 ypc in a season. Reggie Brooks did average 8 ypc for 167 carries in '92 in a backfield with Bettis and Becton among others. He played with QB named Mirer who passed for about 2000 yds and was a pretty good running back. And they had an All-American DB named Burris who was the "GO TO" RB in the Full House Backfield. They all played behind a deep, veteran OLine, Ruddy, Taylor, Norman, Hall, and Knapp. And the defense included Bobby Taylor, Bryant Young, DuBose, and maybe half a dozen more that would start today. Oh and there was that Hentrich who punted and placekicked with excellence.

I'd expect the kind of results ND got in '92 if we had the team talent and depth that ND back then. But we don't, do we.

Go ahead Weisbank, make a 2 deep from the '92 team and '09 team. No comparison is there? ND didn't have the cancer then that Willingham nurtured.

You and the author of that article both ignore that the game has changed. Both offenses and defenses are incredibily more complex today.

Ironic that you point to Reggie Brooks. That February Lou Holtz recognizing the increasing difficulty of getting skill players to come to ND, he had recruited and signed the #1 Pro Set Passer in the nation, Ron Powlus. Holtz understood he had to update his attack. The problem was he didn't recruit all the other players he needed to implement it. He also didn't have a QB coach on staff to develop Powlus HS talent.

Don't agree that Holtz was moving from the 3 yards and a cloud of dust days. Check what kind of offense he ran at his next coaching gig.

 

[BestBIrish47]

Some of us are starting to sound like Cubs fans. Give Charlie some credit, our Defense isn't great, but improving. He is an offensive coach... we are stronger on offense... not a big shocker. If your head coach used to be a Defensive coordinator you are going to be strong on that side of the ball, and vise versa. We barely won vs weaker teams...yea, but these teams are RIVALS...and they get up for us like no one else. Let us reflect on where we were before Charlie got here, very little team speed, very little recruiting presence, we have those things now. We aren't ND of the 60s, 70s, 80s, early 90s but college football is different. We are on a good pace to get back to an Elite level, be happy with some of the progress. ND teams of old would have shut it down in the 4th qtr when USC went up big. The Irish didn't and had a chance to win, I like the character of this team, and when healthy, I feel we can play with anyone in the country.

 

[johnnykillz]

Phork and mods:

Phork, I actually don't like your article at all. I am a homer. That being said, I read this for a few reasons.

1) Why would phork post something, such as this, on this board to "stimulate" conversation? This was the question I asked myself. You obviously didn't write about it to defend or oppose the article at this point. Although I can guess your intention was probably to find some more C-Dub haters. There may have been a few other folks other than moderators, who seem to protect your opinions but shield controversy in the other direction. In real life, if you were to say something in this manner while in South Bend when generating this "conversation," you'd get responses like mine. Though some would agree, many I'm betting would reply such as I have. In my humble opinion you changed the reason you posted this.

2) I'm sick and tired of pointless negative posts. I read this to knock C-Dub haters. I also read this to ask a question. Who would you have coach ND?

3) If we aren't making progress, then what are we doing? I asked this question to myself and replied subconsciously the answer. WE ARE!

Do forgive me calling a spade, a spade dear moderators. This is what would happen in real life, as you had previously mentioned, if I were confronted with someone representing and not falling into line as we should; once again, this is my opinion. I do hope you respect my rebuttal as much as you allow the posting of such "troll-ish" material on your message boards... This should stir many to reply as I have.

May Touchdown Jesus damn the person who may edit my reply.

Go Irish!

Boo Michigan <--- (punch line)

 

[phork]

Phork and mods:

Phork, I actually don't like your article at all. I am a homer. That being said, I read this for a few reasons.

Not my article.

1) Why would phork post something, such as this, on this board to "stimulate" conversation?

Because its something to debate, and if you haven't guessed by now, I like to debate.

There may have been a few other folks other than moderators, who seem to protect your opinions but shield controversy in the other direction.

When someone with 13 posts starts throwing insults around, he has no leverage. Believe it or not I have some people on this board I like to call a friend. They don't share some of my view points, but we debate, we talk and in the end if we were in the same town, I'd buy them a beer while we were watching the game together.

In real life, if you were to say something in this manner while in South Bend when generating this "conversation," you'd get responses like mine. Though some would agree, many I'm betting would reply such as I have. In my humble opinion you changed the reason you posted this.

Thats great, I'm always up for a chat, real life or not. But if you think that the "Everything is hunky dory" club greatly out numbers the "Not too happy to be mediocre club" then you are mistaken.

2) I'm sick and tired of pointless negative posts. I read this to knock C-Dub haters. I also read this to ask a question. Who would you have coach ND?

Well I'm sick of the over-positive posts, and everything is sunshine and daffodils. If I had my choice it would be Brian Kelly, you asked I told.

3) If we aren't making progress, then what are we doing? I asked this question to myself and replied subconsciously the answer. WE FUCKING ARE!

I never said we weren't. But in year5 of Charlie's World I thought we would be a little farther along. Maybe it was my fault for expecting so much, so soon.

Do forgive me calling a spade, a spade dear moderators. This is what would happen in real life, as you had previously mentioned, if I were confronted with someone representing and not falling into line as we should; once again, this is my opinion. I do hope you respect my rebuttal as much as you allow the posting of such "troll-ish" material on your message boards... This should stir many to reply as I have.

Sorry, I don't fall in line.

 

[johnnykillz]

I rest my case your honor...

 

[johnnykillz]

"troll-ish"

Upon review, maybe this isn't fair.

Boo Michigan <--- (punch line)

Absolutely righteous...

 

[Guest]

I think the article was spot on. A lot of ND fans were "proud" or "happy" to just look like they belonged on the field with SC.

The real smarts of that article was the dependence on skill position players. Even back with BQ - it was Quinn, Walker, Samardija, and Stovall. Remove 1 or 2 of them and we were screwed.

Its still the same. In the trenches we are suspect. Both sides of the ball. We are so used to absolutely atrocious running games that this year seems good but were getting 3.7 yards per carry. That is abysmal. I remember when ND backs averaged 6 yards a carry every year. Reggie Brooks I believe averaged 8 one year.

Those were running offenses. Try finding offensive lineman to both pass protect perfectly, and average 6 yards a carry at the same time. Pretty soon you realize they don't exist. The game has changed, and comparing today to the past doesn't yield tangible results.

The wishbone and option used to rule college football. Now its the spread and pro set.

 

[Guest]

recruiting

recruiting

I was on the fence with Charlie for a long time. I think the immediate success he had with those early teams led me to believe he could make gold out of lead. Then I wanted to see the national championship. I reacted emotionally after about 15 years of mediocre football at ND.

But then ND started to stink it up. I was mad. But I had to look at the facts. There is always a reason why things happen. Charlie Weis didn't all of a sudden become a stupid coach. There were reasons, easy to see when I got past the emotional disappointment.

Charlie made his mistakes and freely admits them. Indeed, one of the things I like most about him is his ability to publicly list his own faults. For all of his arrogance early on, he didn't get where he is by being stupid and not learning. He has become more humble, at least outwardly. And I don't think anyone would argue that for the school and the kids, he is a class guy who does it right.

The more I examine what is going on with the ND football program now, the more excited I get. The recruiting is almost back. I hate, first of all, recruiting rankings. They mean next to nothing. By that, I mean the overall point values assigned to programs. If a program gets 30 3-star players, like Texas A&M seems to every year, then they are ranked in the top 20 by virtue of volume, not necessarily quality.

So ND had these big recruiting classes early on, filled with 3-4 star players. It looked like, on paper, we could restock in no time. But in reality, the talent was so far down, it took 3-4 years of solid recruiting to build the program up. When I look back at the recruiting done by Davie and Willingham, there just was very little quality. I didn't realize how long it took to replenish 80 spots on a team year in and year out.

Now, ND is pulling in the elite players. Forget the star ratings. Look at what scouts say about the players ND is recruiting. Not only do they have better measurables, they are the guys getting multiple offers from other solid recruiting programs. Chris Martin, Manti Teo, Jimmy Clausen, Michael Floyd, Tyler Stockton, Gary Gray, Giovanni Bernard, Tai-ler Jones, Shaquille Evans, Cierre Wood, Chris Watt, Zeke Motta. These are the types of guys ND used to recruit year in and out during the Holtz era.

Look back at Willingham and Davie recruits. Not even close.

Now ND is getting the same kinds of guys on defense as on offense. You can see the improvement on the defensive front 7 this year. And the secondary is playing a bit better with some changes. There is talent there, but it is a year behind the offense. In the next 1-2 years. ND is going to have one of the best overall recruiting programs in the country.

Now, consider that ND doesn't play in the middle of a football hotbed. Texas, Florida, Louisiana, California .. now those states breed serious football talent. ND used to not compete in those markets at all before Weis came in. Now they are picking off guys from these locations. ND can basically recruit players anywhere, and that was not the case before Weis came.

It is disappointing that Weis did not put it all together in the first couple of years. But he is learning as a head coach, learning how to develop players, learning how to build defensive teams, building an elite recruiting pipeline, and he loves his team and school. Give the guy some more time. He is making measurable progress, even if it is slower than we want it. But ND is very close to being an elite team again, and after 20 disappointing years, I welcome this with open arms.

Even if Weis can't quite get them to the top, he has taken the ND football program a long way, making it light years easier for the next coach to come in and get them over the top.

 

[phork]

I rest my case your honor...

Do you use cheap drugs?

 

[johnnykillz]

Do you use cheap drugs?

If you call an occasional cognac, my favorite being a Grande Champagne, interspersed with recreational levitra cheap, then heck yeah.

If I'm feeling cheap, then Remy Martin and Girls Gone Wild is on the menu.

Somehow I can't help but feel you left the debate podium and entered the ring here, however. I will not engage you.

 

[johnnykillz]

Great post wyvrn. Very well-written, articulate, and relative.

 

[tankjeep]

You've never been a supervisor at work, have you?
Or raised a child?
Or been through rehab?

Willingham damaged this program almost as severly as an NCAA Death Penalty.
Willingham was the equivalent of a stroke. After a stroke you have to learn to reuse muscles that worked automatically since birth. The whole body doesn't respond magically. The rehab folks work one muscle group at a time. Progress is slow and painful but rewarding as the coordination, strength and functionality return.

Yeah I'm happy that this ND team didn't get blown off the field like they did during the Willingham years and the following years due to his residual damage. They were COMPETITIVE in EVERY GAME they've played this year. The Fight is back in the Irish.

I don't delude myself that we've returned to the ranks the elite. But we continue to make progress toward that end:

COMPETITIVE with anybody - even with all the injuries
Ended the bowl drought
Ended the MSU streak
Ended the BCS streak
Almost ended the Southern Cal streak, the one will end next year.
A Heisman Candidate in '06 and one in '09.
A Blitnekoff Candidate who came on campus as a RB (sounds like player development)
A Mackey Candidate
and in a year or two a Butkus Candidate
Back ranked in the polls
11 for 11 Field Goals.
Competitive 2 Deep




When Weis came in he flatly stated he would use emphasize uising what resources were there. Willingham left a disaster in both trenches and RBs with no speed yet Weis turned Walker into a 1000 yd rusher and developed 2 1000 yard receivers on that team. He developed Quinn from a squatter to 1st Round Draft Choice.

And you would be running an Option Attack with that material.

• Hmmm, despite their deeper talent the Sooners have lost 3 games without Bradford, haven't they?
• Where would Texas be without McCoy and Shipley?
• Florida without Tebow and Cooper?

How many sacks a year when Clausen was a freshman? NCAA Record Setter ring any bells. How many now when Clausen plays with a steel plate in his shoe?

No, we're not elite but anyone who knows college football knows you don't plug freshman and sophomore OLs and DLs in they take 2-3 years to build up Division 1 size and strength, and develop Div 1 technique. ND doesn't use JUCOs like OU, Southern CAL, and the entire SEC. Did you see what happened to Bama in their bowl last year when their stud JUCO lineman couldn't play?

Care to list all Willingham's OTs?





3.7 ypc is a long way from atrocious and abysmal. Yet, it's not the goal Weis set for this season, is it?. And the season is't over yet, is it?

You remember ND backs averaging 6 yards a carry EVERY YEAR.

Really?

Some backs did hit 6 ypc in a season. Reggie Brooks did average 8 ypc for 167 carries in '92 in a backfield with Bettis and Becton among others. He played with QB named Mirer who passed for about 2000 yds and was a pretty good running back. And they had an All-American DB named Burris who was the "GO TO" RB in the Full House Backfield. They all played behind a deep, veteran OLine, Ruddy, Taylor, Norman, Hall, and Knapp. And the defense included Bobby Taylor, Bryant Young, DuBose, and maybe half a dozen more that would start today. Oh and there was that Hentrich who punted and placekicked with excellence.

I'd expect the kind of results ND got in '92 if we had the team talent and depth that ND back then. But we don't, do we.

Go ahead Weisbank, make a 2 deep from the '92 team and '09 team. No comparison is there? ND didn't have the cancer then that Willingham nurtured.

You and the author of that article both ignore that the game has changed. Both offenses and defenses are incredibily more complex today.

Ironic that you point to Reggie Brooks. That February Lou Holtz recognizing the increasing difficulty of getting skill players to come to ND, he had recruited and signed the #1 Pro Set Passer in the nation, Ron Powlus. Holtz understood he had to update his attack. The problem was he didn't recruit all the other players he needed to implement it. He also didn't have a QB coach on staff to develop Powlus HS talent.

Don't agree that Holtz was moving from the 3 yards and a cloud of dust days. Check what kind of offense he ran at his next coaching gig.

bgif, sniff-sniff.....you're my hero.

phork, i appreciate you creating a debatable atmosphere......i think.

go irish!

 

[Seanthornton]

18:08 In the area of ND Campus near the football field report of a Brush fire near the building ENGINES 12,21,51 Truck-11, RES-3 Attack-1 repond. Thread moderator you have been issued subfleet BRAVO. Battalion Chief KILZ is in command. Please advise......further.


~~~Engine-21 advising smoke showing 18:10
~~~Engine-21 to Command give me a second alarm assignment on stand-by incase this gets out of control.

~~~18:12 ENG-21

 

[Riddickulous]

BGIF is the boss.

 

[johnnykillz]

18:08 In the area of ND Campus near the football field report of a Brush fire near the building ENGINES 12,21,51 Truck-11, RES-3 Attack-1 repond. Thread moderator you have been issued subfleet BRAVO. Battalion Chief KILZ is in command. Please advise......further.


~~~Engine-21 advising smoke showing 18:10
~~~Engine-21 to Command give me a second alarm assignment on stand-by incase this gets out of control.

~~~18:12 ENG-21

10-4 Horton.

I've been 10-9.

I appreciate the 10-37.

We are 10-51.

Let's 10-2.

 

[Merlin]

I was on the fence with Charlie for a long time. I think the immediate success he had with those early teams led me to believe he could make gold out of lead. Then I wanted to see the national championship. I reacted emotionally after about 15 years of mediocre football at ND.

But then ND started to stink it up. I was mad. But I had to look at the facts. There is always a reason why things happen. Charlie Weis didn't all of a sudden become a stupid coach. There were reasons, easy to see when I got past the emotional disappointment.

Charlie made his mistakes and freely admits them. Indeed, one of the things I like most about him is his ability to publicly list his own faults. For all of his arrogance early on, he didn't get where he is by being stupid and not learning. He has become more humble, at least outwardly. And I don't think anyone would argue that for the school and the kids, he is a class guy who does it right.

The more I examine what is going on with the ND football program now, the more excited I get. The recruiting is almost back. I hate, first of all, recruiting rankings. They mean next to nothing. By that, I mean the overall point values assigned to programs. If a program gets 30 3-star players, like Texas A&M seems to every year, then they are ranked in the top 20 by virtue of volume, not necessarily quality.

So ND had these big recruiting classes early on, filled with 3-4 star players. It looked like, on paper, we could restock in no time. But in reality, the talent was so far down, it took 3-4 years of solid recruiting to build the program up. When I look back at the recruiting done by Davie and Willingham, there just was very little quality. I didn't realize how long it took to replenish 80 spots on a team year in and year out.

Now, ND is pulling in the elite players. Forget the star ratings. Look at what scouts say about the players ND is recruiting. Not only do they have better measurables, they are the guys getting multiple offers from other solid recruiting programs. Chris Martin, Manti Teo, Jimmy Clausen, Michael Floyd, Tyler Stockton, Gary Gray, Giovanni Bernard, Tai-ler Jones, Shaquille Evans, Cierre Wood, Chris Watt, Zeke Motta. These are the types of guys ND used to recruit year in and out during the Holtz era.

Look back at Willingham and Davie recruits. Not even close.

Now ND is getting the same kinds of guys on defense as on offense. You can see the improvement on the defensive front 7 this year. And the secondary is playing a bit better with some changes. There is talent there, but it is a year behind the offense. In the next 1-2 years. ND is going to have one of the best overall recruiting programs in the country.

Now, consider that ND doesn't play in the middle of a football hotbed. Texas, Florida, Louisiana, California .. now those states breed serious football talent. ND used to not compete in those markets at all before Weis came in. Now they are picking off guys from these locations. ND can basically recruit players anywhere, and that was not the case before Weis came.

It is disappointing that Weis did not put it all together in the first couple of years. But he is learning as a head coach, learning how to develop players, learning how to build defensive teams, building an elite recruiting pipeline, and he loves his team and school. Give the guy some more time. He is making measurable progress, even if it is slower than we want it. But ND is very close to being an elite team again, and after 20 disappointing years, I welcome this with open arms.

Even if Weis can't quite get them to the top, he has taken the ND football program a long way, making it light years easier for the next coach to come in and get them over the top.

Top post!

 

[philipm31]

I didn't say anything, I was forwarding an article in regards to ND Football. Don't attack me, attack the author of the article. I like to bring discussion to a message board (GO FIGURE), good or bad.

And like one of the previous posters said, I think the point of the article is that there was a time when playing teams like Purdue and BC was just an after thought. The real debate was how much ND would beat them by.

Charlie is the coach at ND, but that does NOT exclude him from criticism.

And dearest Philip, when you reach 100 posts your opinion might matter a little more to me.

And when you've been alive long enough to see ND suffer through Faust, Davie and Willing ham, then your opinion might hold just a little merit....oh, wait. No it won't.
I have been an Irish fan longer than you've been alive most likely, phork. So, again, I say be quiet and let the rest of the REAL Irish fans post on here, as you are not one of them, obviously.

 

[philipm31]

Top post!

Look at the team that Holtz inherited, and you can realize that the recruiting job that Faust did was amazing, to get NFL talent like Tim Brown, Alan Pinkett, John Carney and the entire senior class that made up the bulk of the team, particularly defensively (Three Amigos, anyone?), then it is obvious that you have to deal with the hand you are dealt (Holtz going 13-10 while changing the entire team culture but still progressing each year was amazing in and of itself.) But look at the roster of that team and tell me they'd not be a ton better than whatever Ty or Davie put together, particularly as recruiting goes.

The Faust years were uneven, at best, but at least he was pulling in more big recruits than Davie and Ty did, and therefore Lou was able to get ND back on top of CFB, again. If Charlie can't do it, at least his recruiting efforts will provide the next coach with the foundation to take over and make ND a national power again.


But I guess that is just something people who have never seen ND games for more than the last 8 years and have NO idea what ND football has been through in the last 25 to 30 years.

 

[jason_h537]

Thats assuming the next coach is the right guy. A bad hire will ruin everything that Weis has built if he is let go. Unless the team completely melts down, i cant wait to see this team next year

 

[BGIF]

And when you've been alive long enough to see ND suffer through Faust, Davie and Willing ham, then your opinion might hold just a little merit....oh, wait. No it won't.
I have been an Irish fan longer than you've been alive most likely, phork. So, again, I say be quiet and let the rest of the REAL Irish fans post on here, as you are not one of them, obviously.

Philip, how do you say Wal-Mart Wolverine in Polish?

 

[phork]

And when you've been alive long enough to see ND suffer through Faust, Davie and Willing ham, then your opinion might hold just a little merit....oh, wait. No it won't.
I have been an Irish fan longer than you've been alive most likely, phork. So, again, I say be quiet and let the rest of the REAL Irish fans post on here, as you are not one of them, obviously.

Nice try pal. Been there done that.

 

[Jason Pham]

And when you've been alive long enough to see ND suffer through Faust, Davie and Willing ham, then your opinion might hold just a little merit....oh, wait. No it won't.
I have been an Irish fan longer than you've been alive most likely, phork. So, again, I say be quiet and let the rest of the REAL Irish fans post on here, as you are not one of them, obviously.

Disagree with him all you like. Don't take things to a personal level and claim to hold the power to determine who can and cannot be considered a fan.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Boom Boom P0W

You've never been a supervisor at work, have you?
Or raised a child?
Or been through rehab?

Willingham damaged this program almost as severly as an NCAA Death Penalty....The Fight is back in the Irish.
I don't delude myself that we've returned to the ranks the elite. But we continue to make progress toward that end

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I was on the fence with Charlie for a long time. I think the immediate success he had with those early teams led me to believe he could make gold out of lead. Then I wanted to see the national championship. I reacted emotionally after about 15 years of mediocre football at ND.

But then ND started to stink it up. I was mad. But I had to look at the facts. There is always a reason why things happen. Charlie Weis didn't all of a sudden become a stupid coach. There were reasons, easy to see when I got past the emotional disappointment.

Charlie made his mistakes and freely admits them. Indeed, one of the things I like most about him is his ability to publicly list his own faults. For all of his arrogance early on, he didn't get where he is by being stupid and not learning. He has become more humble, at least outwardly. And I don't think anyone would argue that for the school and the kids, he is a class guy who does it right.

The more I examine what is going on with the ND football program now, the more excited I get. The recruiting is almost back. I hate, first of all, recruiting rankings. They mean next to nothing. By that, I mean the overall point values assigned to programs. If a program gets 30 3-star players, like Texas A&M seems to every year, then they are ranked in the top 20 by virtue of volume, not necessarily quality.

So ND had these big recruiting classes early on, filled with 3-4 star players. It looked like, on paper, we could restock in no time. But in reality, the talent was so far down, it took 3-4 years of solid recruiting to build the program up. When I look back at the recruiting done by Davie and Willingham, there just was very little quality. I didn't realize how long it took to replenish 80 spots on a team year in and year out.

Now, ND is pulling in the elite players. Forget the star ratings. Look at what scouts say about the players ND is recruiting. Not only do they have better measurables, they are the guys getting multiple offers from other solid recruiting programs. Chris Martin, Manti Teo, Jimmy Clausen, Michael Floyd, Tyler Stockton, Gary Gray, Giovanni Bernard, Tai-ler Jones, Shaquille Evans, Cierre Wood, Chris Watt, Zeke Motta. These are the types of guys ND used to recruit year in and out during the Holtz era.

Look back at Willingham and Davie recruits. Not even close.

Now ND is getting the same kinds of guys on defense as on offense. You can see the improvement on the defensive front 7 this year. And the secondary is playing a bit better with some changes. There is talent there, but it is a year behind the offense. In the next 1-2 years. ND is going to have one of the best overall recruiting programs in the country.

Now, consider that ND doesn't play in the middle of a football hotbed. Texas, Florida, Louisiana, California .. now those states breed serious football talent. ND used to not compete in those markets at all before Weis came in. Now they are picking off guys from these locations. ND can basically recruit players anywhere, and that was not the case before Weis came.

It is disappointing that Weis did not put it all together in the first couple of years. But he is learning as a head coach, learning how to develop players, learning how to build defensive teams, building an elite recruiting pipeline, and he loves his team and school. Give the guy some more time. He is making measurable progress, even if it is slower than we want it. But ND is very close to being an elite team again, and after 20 disappointing years, I welcome this with open arms.

Even if Weis can't quite get them to the top, he has taken the ND football program a long way, making it light years easier for the next coach to come in and get them over the top.

Nice.

 

[weisbank4]

You've never been a supervisor at work, have you?
Or raised a child?
Or been through rehab?

Willingham damaged this program almost as severly as an NCAA Death Penalty.
Willingham was the equivalent of a stroke. After a stroke you have to learn to reuse muscles that worked automatically since birth. The whole body doesn't respond magically. The rehab folks work one muscle group at a time. Progress is slow and painful but rewarding as the coordination, strength and functionality return.

Yeah I'm happy that this ND team didn't get blown off the field like they did during the Willingham years and the following years due to his residual damage. They were COMPETITIVE in EVERY GAME they've played this year. The Fight is back in the Irish.

I don't delude myself that we've returned to the ranks the elite. But we continue to make progress toward that end:

COMPETITIVE with anybody - even with all the injuries
Ended the bowl drought
Ended the MSU streak
Ended the BCS streak
Almost ended the Southern Cal streak, the one will end next year.
A Heisman Candidate in '06 and one in '09.
A Blitnekoff Candidate who came on campus as a RB (sounds like player development)
A Mackey Candidate
and in a year or two a Butkus Candidate
Back ranked in the polls
11 for 11 Field Goals.
Competitive 2 Deep




When Weis came in he flatly stated he would use emphasize uising what resources were there. Willingham left a disaster in both trenches and RBs with no speed yet Weis turned Walker into a 1000 yd rusher and developed 2 1000 yard receivers on that team. He developed Quinn from a squatter to 1st Round Draft Choice.

And you would be running an Option Attack with that material.

• Hmmm, despite their deeper talent the Sooners have lost 3 games without Bradford, haven't they?
• Where would Texas be without McCoy and Shipley?
• Florida without Tebow and Cooper?

How many sacks a year when Clausen was a freshman? NCAA Record Setter ring any bells. How many now when Clausen plays with a steel plate in his shoe?

No, we're not elite but anyone who knows college football knows you don't plug freshman and sophomore OLs and DLs in they take 2-3 years to build up Division 1 size and strength, and develop Div 1 technique. ND doesn't use JUCOs like OU, Southern CAL, and the entire SEC. Did you see what happened to Bama in their bowl last year when their stud JUCO lineman couldn't play?

Care to list all Willingham's OTs?





3.7 ypc is a long way from atrocious and abysmal. Yet, it's not the goal Weis set for this season, is it?. And the season is't over yet, is it?

You remember ND backs averaging 6 yards a carry EVERY YEAR.

Really?

Some backs did hit 6 ypc in a season. Reggie Brooks did average 8 ypc for 167 carries in '92 in a backfield with Bettis and Becton among others. He played with QB named Mirer who passed for about 2000 yds and was a pretty good running back. And they had an All-American DB named Burris who was the "GO TO" RB in the Full House Backfield. They all played behind a deep, veteran OLine, Ruddy, Taylor, Norman, Hall, and Knapp. And the defense included Bobby Taylor, Bryant Young, DuBose, and maybe half a dozen more that would start today. Oh and there was that Hentrich who punted and placekicked with excellence.

I'd expect the kind of results ND got in '92 if we had the team talent and depth that ND back then. But we don't, do we.

Go ahead Weisbank, make a 2 deep from the '92 team and '09 team. No comparison is there? ND didn't have the cancer then that Willingham nurtured.

You and the author of that article both ignore that the game has changed. Both offenses and defenses are incredibily more complex today.

Ironic that you point to Reggie Brooks. That February Lou Holtz recognizing the increasing difficulty of getting skill players to come to ND, he had recruited and signed the #1 Pro Set Passer in the nation, Ron Powlus. Holtz understood he had to update his attack. The problem was he didn't recruit all the other players he needed to implement it. He also didn't have a QB coach on staff to develop Powlus HS talent.

Don't agree that Holtz was moving from the 3 yards and a cloud of dust days. Check what kind of offense he ran at his next coaching gig.

I own my own business so does that qualify me as a "supervisor"? I have a 9 year old and 5 year old, and Ive never been through rehab because Ive never done drugs or abused alcohol.

I guess its just not in my dna to have a bag of excuses. If Im not results driven then I am out of business. So I can sit here day to day and make excuses and lists but the record is the record in his 4 plus years. Its mediocre.

It looks like things are improving but we were a couple plays from another disasterous season.